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Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

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grah33 said:
The thing is, evolution can't explain where 'creature life' (another great mystery) comes from , as well as molecular life, so i'd think there'd be little point in going in these directions (explaining how something like empathy gets kept).
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Evolution isn’t about explaining how first life came about, it’s about explaining how that life has changed from simple to complex creatures over time.

The scientific study about where first life came from is called “abiogenesis”, not to be confused with evolution.

There was a time when people couldn’t explain the origin of lighting, but that wouldn’t have meant studying its effects was pointless, nor would it mean saying “god does it” was a valid answer

Here is a bit on abiogenesis

 
Value Collector said:
Why do you even care about morals?

Does society having “good” morals effect you?
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The more I learn about the Morality Argument the more fearful I am about an atheistic world. Millions of examples. But without morals, a government can do whatever it wants, for one thing.
 
grah33 said:
The more I learn about the Morality Argument the more fearful I am about an atheistic world. Millions of examples. But without morals, a government can do whatever it wants, for one thing.
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It is with religion that a government can do whatever it wants: it simply say that this is what "god" wanted. This is how it was written; what was told to the PM, the King, the head honcho by that "god".

So a more moral country would not follow any religion for its policies. This include the religion of Communism, Capitalism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc. etc.

By not putting anyone, any ideology, or any deity as beyond reason and logic, a country soon make law that's more beneficial and more just for its people.

For example... The current argument in the western capitalist society is that capitalism is good, free market is great. Why? How? Why just look at the stock market.

But what about the average working Joe whose wages hasn't gone anywhere but living expenses and previous jobs has gone up and out? Well... it's good for him and for her, eventually. Because it's the market and freedom. You don't like freedom or what?

Take Israel... It's the land God promised the Hebrews. Are you going to against God's wishes?

But Bibi and other racist warmongers... maybe stick to International Law and be happy with what the world gave you. That and stop freaking killing defenceless people on the occasional "mowing the lawn" "war" and making their live a living hell during "peace".

But this is what God would've wanted. Why else would He told whoever who told whoever who told Moses... oh look, there are other bad actors over there, why not go tell them off and leave us to our God you racist hippy.


You probably think I'm kidding but you should read, or watch lectures, on world history a bit more before committing to religion too heavily.

I mean I know people who benefited greatly from their faith in this or that god, and because of such faith they have done great community work. Well, maybe they'd do it anyway because they're nice people but since they attribute it all to God's morality, I guess I shouldn't argue with it.

ANyway, careful of religion, especially organised ones. The cult leaders aren't always nice people who lead lost sheeps back to the way of righteousness. Often they just take money and volunteered time out of them.
 
grah33 said:
The more I learn about the Morality Argument the more fearful I am about an atheistic world. Millions of examples. But without morals, a government can do whatever it wants, for one thing.
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Atheists have morals too. There is nothing to suggest that free secular societies are less moral that their religious counterparts. Most of Northern Europe are run by people with secular values and I would feel a lot less fearful about them than those that are predominantly run by religious people; US, Muslim countries, strong Catholic countries etc.

I do not include communist countries as secular, as they do not act according to secular morality but in accordance with their communist ideology.
 
bellenuit said:
Atheists have morals too. There is nothing to suggest that free secular societies are less moral that their religious counterparts. Most of Northern Europe are run by people with secular values and I would feel a lot less fearful about them than those that are predominantly run by religious people; US, Muslim countries, strong Catholic countries etc.

I do not include communist countries as secular, as they do not act according to secular morality but in accordance with their communist ideology.
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Are u sure??? When you don't have morality then everything is open. Like a fox killing all the rabbits on an island (it's not immoral). You can see killing and conquering as being skillful. You can view Stalin's achievements in a positive way. You know what males are like, priding themselves on exploiting multiple women, and it's okay for them since there is no God, or everyone else does it.

And when you talk about e.g. Catholic countries/groups violating morality, they're acting without morality. We shouldn't be surprised, as everyone can choose to not be morally good. Some modern day examples that demonstrate that secular morality is inferior would be having an abortion, and changing marriage partners for convenience as Rumple pointed out. These things are no big deal that everyone does in today's time of secular morality. No doubt the Christian morals are better, and perfect too imo. And that's a good argument for the Christian God as being true imv, since if there is a God and an objective morality, the correct religion must have true morals. Luutzu, if you read this, plz remain calm (don't chuck a spaz).


Islam is different imo. It doesn't have the same morality as Christianity. My sense is that controlling freedom of speech (a human right in Christianity), and e.g. forcing religious conversion is seen as a good act as it preserves the religion in people (note, added: Obama Hillary doing this forcing religious institution to comply ...). With Christianity though, it's morally right to allow another person of another religion to follow the religion in their heart (or not be religious), in accordance with Jesus's mercy teachings/human dignity (and those teachings aren't an invention, just reveal what IS). And that has obviously gone away now with the Dean Smith (gay marriage ) bill. It's actually similar to Islam and communism (compelling other people). For example, the State would have a religious cake baker violate the law within his heart, so they would have to serve a customer. It's obvious enough for me that it morally correct to not compel such people, since they would be experiencing conflict from 2 laws in competition with one another. Plus the refugees. Without God, seems that the flexibility to do whatever gets bigger. And with these kinds of violations occurring, one would expect the government to take our money more.



Although what I can say is I believe people with good morals tend to feel more 'rounded' within themselves, and people without morals or little standard tend to feel agitated and yuckier within. And yes, secular people can practice them and feel good too.
 
luutzu said:
It is with religion that a government can do whatever it wants: it simply say that this is what "god" wanted. This is how it was written; what was told to the PM, the King, the head honcho by that "god".

So a more moral country would not follow any religion for its policies. This include the religion of Communism, Capitalism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc. etc.

By not putting anyone, any ideology, or any deity as beyond reason and logic, a country soon make law that's more beneficial and more just for its people.

For example... The current argument in the western capitalist society is that capitalism is good, free market is great. Why? How? Why just look at the stock market.

But what about the average working Joe whose wages hasn't gone anywhere but living expenses and previous jobs has gone up and out? Well... it's good for him and for her, eventually. Because it's the market and freedom. You don't like freedom or what?

Take Israel... It's the land God promised the Hebrews. Are you going to against God's wishes?

But Bibi and other racist warmongers... maybe stick to International Law and be happy with what the world gave you. That and stop freaking killing defenceless people on the occasional "mowing the lawn" "war" and making their live a living hell during "peace".

But this is what God would've wanted. Why else would He told whoever who told whoever who told Moses... oh look, there are other bad actors over there, why not go tell them off and leave us to our God you racist hippy.


You probably think I'm kidding but you should read, or watch lectures, on world history a bit more before committing to religion too heavily.

I mean I know people who benefited greatly from their faith in this or that god, and because of such faith they have done great community work. Well, maybe they'd do it anyway because they're nice people but since they attribute it all to God's morality, I guess I shouldn't argue with it.

ANyway, careful of religion, especially organised ones. The cult leaders aren't always nice people who lead lost sheeps back to the way of righteousness. Often they just take money and volunteered time out of them.
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Well Luutzu, i think the main problem with secular morality, is that there is no morality (technically). There is no absolute standard. You define it as you like and do whatever you like. Another example on top of those i gave to Bell: terminating deformed/down syndrome babies.
 
Religious inspired morality.....

Screen Shot 2018-01-14 at 8.32.33 pm.png
 
grah33 said:
The more I learn about the Morality Argument the more fearful I am about an atheistic world. Millions of examples. But without morals, a government can do whatever it wants, for one thing.
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For thousands of years religious leaders have done what they want, burning witches, hanging people for religious crimes etc, our morals are much better now that they aren’t religious based.

But my question was to you.

Why do you care about society having good morals?
 
grah33 said:
Well Luutzu, i think the main problem with secular morality, is that there is no morality (technically). There is no absolute standard. You define it as you like and do whatever you like. Another example on top of those i gave to Bell: terminating deformed/down syndrome babies.
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Secular morality, defined as non-religious based morality, do exist. Just they do not rely on a God or a Lord or an ideology to measure against. Rather, they rely on reason and logic, and put nothing but the truth [so to speak] above all men and masters.

For example. Gay marriage... why the heck can't gay people legally married each other?

Ask a religious people who's against it and they'd tell you it's because it's unholy, God forbid it, it's against God's nature (even though God apparently created all things, he hate the gays).

Ask a secular person and if they're against gay marriage they'd just tell you it's because they're prejudiced and a bit of a prick themselves. I mean they wouldn't put it that way, but you get the idea.

So to debate the issue of gay marriage would point to the harm it would cause. Beside hurting religious people's feelings and upsetting God, are there other reasons? Does gay marriage harm anyone in society? Will the children need saving if gays were allowed to get married?

As such, secular morality is far superior to any religious based ideology. That's not to say that all things religion are bad... just religion by its nature is strict and rigid and depends on what some drunk or schizo says God told him, and we should all believe it, or else.

Further, secular morality rarely permit itself to be used by politicians and empire builders.

Take gay marriage again. If the people are pro-gay having equal rights, what reason would they have against other human being also having equal rights? None.

Religion permit inequality among the sexes - men are better than women etc. One skin tone is superior over the other etc. etc.; It could be used to lead people to venture overseas, convert or expel the natives, take their gold and natural resources... all for God, King and country. Money too of course but that's what God would have wanted it.
 
SirRumpole said:
Because it's money out of taxpayers pockets that could be better spent elsewhere. The burden on social welfare of neglected kids is enormous.
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Notice you didn’t mention any gods, the reasons you care about morality are real world reasons, and their effect on you in the real world.

Religious people tend to always say without god morals don’t make sense, but when asked why they want society to have good morals they tend to list real world reasons and don’t mention gods.
 
Value Collector said:
But why do you care about any of that happening?
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Because he has an inculcated Australian christian morality...same as you. You're on the inside looking out and trying look back in with a determined negative view, but keeping the good bits as some kind of innate awareness.
 
luutzu said:
Secular morality, defined as non-religious based morality, do exist. Just they do not rely on a God or a Lord or an ideology to measure against. Rather, they rely on reason and logic, and put nothing but the truth [so to speak] above all men and masters.

For example. Gay marriage... why the heck can't gay people legally married each other?

Ask a religious people who's against it and they'd tell you it's because it's unholy, God forbid it, it's against God's nature (even though God apparently created all things, he hate the gays).

Ask a secular person and if they're against gay marriage they'd just tell you it's because they're prejudiced and a bit of a prick themselves. I mean they wouldn't put it that way, but you get the idea.

So to debate the issue of gay marriage would point to the harm it would cause. Beside hurting religious people's feelings and upsetting God, are there other reasons? Does gay marriage harm anyone in society? Will the children need saving if gays were allowed to get married?

As such, secular morality is far superior to any religious based ideology. That's not to say that all things religion are bad... just religion by its nature is strict and rigid and depends on what some drunk or schizo says God told him, and we should all believe it, or else.

Further, secular morality rarely permit itself to be used by politicians and empire builders.

Take gay marriage again. If the people are pro-gay having equal rights, what reason would they have against other human being also having equal rights? None.

Religion permit inequality among the sexes - men are better than women etc. One skin tone is superior over the other etc. etc.; It could be used to lead people to venture overseas, convert or expel the natives, take their gold and natural resources... all for God, King and country. Money too of course but that's what God would have wanted it.
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You're still in the same place. We're talking about compelling someone to do something against their own 'interior law' that is within themselves. If you reflect on this enough, I hope that you would realize that this isn't morally right, even if, according to you, that person's religion is false. Christian morality accepts this, since it's true and right, but not secular morality (or Islam or communism). And secular morality is really one type of secular morality, with the good bits in it. In an atheistic world you'd expect other forms of wicked morality to form, since morals don't exist.
 
Tisme said:
Because he has an inculcated Australian christian morality...same as you. You're on the inside looking out and trying look back in with a determined negative view, but keeping the good bits as some kind of innate awareness.
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Have you spent much time out of Australia? They are folks with good morals all over the world, not just in countries with Christianity in their history.
 
grah33 said:
In an atheistic world you'd expect other forms of wicked morality to form, since morals don't exist.
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You say that as if wicked theistic morality hasn't and doesn't exist.

What I would prefer is for moral systems to be based on facts and rationality not the religious texts.

Richard Dawkins sums it up perfectly here.

 
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