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Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

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explod said:
Science is observation, people believed the earth was flat, observation (ie. science) proved it was round.

With God I (BELIEVE) we are both situated where the people were when it was thought the earth was flat and so contend that we do not know.
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This is why we are having difficulty progressing this discussion.

Your argument seems to be founded on your faith in your personal conception of science, coupled with your doubt in your personal conception of God.

Until you find within yourself, the capability and willingness, to offer me a blank slate, devoid of your personal beliefs in already "knowing", it will be nigh on impossible for you to accept, into consideration, the alternative viewpoint that I might otherwise have been able to offer.

So, in the interests of doing some preliminary foundational work, in preparation for my presentation of an alternative view on reality, can you give me your understanding, of my reasons for saying, what I have said in this post?
 
Value Collector said:
And different gods seem to manifest to different people, and different people both believe equally that different gods exist.

They can’t both be right, but they could both be wrong.
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There could be many possibilities when you think about it...Even so, a claim like this still doesn't disprove the Bible God which seems to be the chief reason for debating here in recent times.


Also, the Christian morals seem more superior to other faiths (to me anyway), and seem to promote the fullness of human dignity. For example, which is better , polygamy or one male/female marriage? (I'm just saying, no need to answer.) The other 2 faiths have polygamy in their moral instruction books and both (not totally sure though) may regard it as morally acceptable. This doesn't prove the Christian God, but I'd like to think that human beings wouldn't have invented something seemingly much better that God didn't already intend. Another example is "eye for an eye" vs forgiveness.
 
SirRumpole said:
Not in the physical universe, but that's the whole point of a god, to be eternal and not subject to physical constraints.
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Why invent a god to explain that eternal part? We haven’t ruled out that the universe itself could be eternal.

But also if the god lived outside the universe in some other demension, even though he is outside of time in this universe, wouldn’t that demension have its own time? And doesn’t that demension require a creator.

Eventually you have to get to a point where you either accept something is just infinite and eternal, or it can infect pop out of nothing.

And saying only a god can be eternal is just special pleading, because we haven’t yet proven 1. Gods exist or are possible of existing 2. We haven’t ruled out that the universe is infinite and eternal itself.
 
cynic said:
My abridged version, of the kalam argument for the existence of god. You know! The one that logically demonstrates, the necessary existence, of a potent,eternal uncreated creator!
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Did you lay that out for me? I must have missed it.

Last post I saw was you just referring me to a 40min video and refusing to explaining the arguement
 
grah33 said:
There could be many possibilities when you think about it...Even so, a claim like this still doesn't disprove the Bible God which seems to be the chief reason for debating here in recent times.


Also, the Christian morals seem more superior to other faiths (to me anyway), and seem to promote the fullness of human dignity. For example, which is better , polygamy or one male/female marriage? (I'm just saying, no need to answer.) The other 2 faiths have polygamy in their moral instruction books and both (not totally sure though) may regard it as morally acceptable. This doesn't prove the Christian God, but I'd like to think that human beings wouldn't have invented something seemingly much better that God didn't already intend. Another example is "eye for an eye" vs forgiveness.
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There are many things about Christian faith that are immoral.

Secular morality is far superior.
 
Does this post jog your failing memory VC?
Could it be that you are suffering from an acute case of selective amnesia?

cynic said:
I happen to be a theist whom considers the argument, about whether or not the universe had a beginning, to be a redundant and needless premise in the kalam argument (apart from justifying use of the word cosmological in its label) for the following reason:

If the universe is infinite, then the universe itself, would of necessity be the uncaused cause!

So even if I accept the possibility of the universe being infinite (and it just so happens that I do), the premise that anything which begins to exist, needing to have been caused to exist, is still sufficient to support the logical deduction that there must exist an uncaused cause!

So if there is an uncaused cause, one need only ask oneself what the attributes, or qualities, an uncaused cause, would, of necessity, possess, in order to be an uncaused cause. Amongst other things, it would, at the very minimum, have to be eternal, powerful and creative! These three qualities are often attributed to the God concept espoused in a number of belief systems. Have there been any concepts, other than God, throughout history, credited with all three of those qualities (i.e. potency, creativity, and timelessness)?

If you'd prefer to label it as something else, that is your prerogative. But do take care to resist the temptation to apply, any labels, already assigned to completely different concepts, such as purple unicorns, planet orbitting teapots or pure nonsense.

Because to do such a thing, would be tantamount to indulgence in the Dawkins delusion, and I really do want to believe that you are intelligent enough to think for yourself, rather than to parrot the mistakes of that logic bereft moron.
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Value Collector said:
And saying only a god can be eternal is just special pleading, because we haven’t yet proven 1. Gods exist or are possible of existing 2. We haven’t ruled out that the universe is infinite and eternal itself.
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Anything that changes over time (like universes) must have a beginning. It's a breach of the laws of physics to say that physical properties like mass and energy always existed. A god would be outside the laws of physics because the god would have created those laws in the first place.
 
Value Collector said:
There are many things about Christian faith that are immoral.

Secular morality is far superior.
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Don't know how morality actually applies in atheism. It's like saying a fox (we're like animals) is immoral for killing 50 rabbits on an island ,even if it weren't hungry. That is why secularism allows for e..g killing an 8 month unborn baby by stabbing it in the head (very gruesome). We certainly have less human dignity in secularism.
 
explod said:
However if you can produce a god and I can shake his hand on parting the river for our path from ASF headquarters, then I'll know. Untill then your just dreaming ole pal.
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Ever seen an atom, or a black hole, or dark matter Plod?
 
grah33 said:
Don't know how morality actually applies in atheism. It's like saying a fox (we're like animals) is immoral for killing 50 rabbits on an island ,even if it weren't hungry. That is why secularism allows for e..g killing an 8 month unborn baby by stabbing it in the head (very gruesome). We certainly have less human dignity in secularism.
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Maybe the prospect of eternal Hell or Heaven would sway some people towards doing "good" i.e. do what the Bible says, or if they haven't read, do as told by their preacher/priests/Pope. And those "fathers" are obviously good and righteous people.

But for those who's off the scale crazy; or off the scale "good natured", they'd do what they'd do regardless of what God might think about it.

There are many examples of religious people, following the teachings (as they were told) of the good books... then do nasty crap because of it.

Take Pope John Paul II... He banned the use of condoms in Africa during the AIDS crisis. It's how God would've liked it. A few million of God's children died from AIDS because of it.

The current Pope is a whole lot more sensible and permit contraception in areas affected by the Zika Virus.
 
wayneL said:
Ever seen an atom, or a black hole, or dark matter Plod?
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You ever seen God, Sifu?

And yes, we've all seen atoms. Scientists have observed Black Holes. They've also verified that the Earth rotate around the Sun; discovered galaxies and planets God forgot to mention in the Bible. Not to mention they've estimated the age of the Earth (it's not some 5,000 years God)... and have also discovered dinosaurs - God's earlier project he, I'm guessing, either forgot to mention or just completely wiped out and don't want to know about it.
 
luutzu said:
You ever seen God, Sifu?

And yes, we've all seen atoms. Scientists have observed Black Holes. They've also verified that the Earth rotate around the Sun; discovered galaxies and planets God forgot to mention in the Bible. Not to mention they've estimated the age of the Earth (it's not some 5,000 years God)... and have also discovered dinosaurs - God's earlier project he, I'm guessing, either forgot to mention or just completely wiped out and don't want to know about it.
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You're still stuck there Grasshopper, aren't you.

You should think a bit more deeply about that answer, you are falling straight into my trap ;)
 
It appears that there is considerable consensus herein that we cannot believe the concluded, annotated findings through observation, dissections etc. of our scientists.

When you awake from your dreamland cynic we may be able to discuss reality
 
wayneL said:
You're still stuck there Grasshopper, aren't you.

You should think a bit more deeply about that answer, you are falling straight into my trap ;)
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"Grasshopper" is a term used by the wise. The wise speak plain language,

Explanation on what you are driving at here Wayne
 
explod said:
It appears that there is considerable consensus herein that we cannot believe the concluded, annotated findings through observation, dissections etc. of our scientists.

When you awake from your dreamland cynic we may be able to discuss reality
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Our experience of reality is a dream, doomed to dissolve upon our awakening!

But by all means, do enjoy your dream explod.
 
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