Religion IS crazy!

[Gringotts Bank]

Obviously I have different Christian beliefs to yourself which doesn't mean they are wrong. Accept that people are different.

In my early years I grew up under draconian Christian law and what I see in your posts remind me of that cult. My parents saw the light and thankfully got out.

BTW - if you believe what you are saying then why are you trading?

But don't ram your personal beliefs in to other people. Live by them by all means but don't judge others who may have differing beliefs. Judge not lest ye be judged.

Actually I'm not saying you, pavillion or country lad should do anything other than what you're doing right now. But it does go very much against the teachings of the Bible. If you're happy to do that, I can't complain. Really what I'm wanting to know is how you reconcile this obvious clash of values in your own experience.

Pavillion won't comment on the Luke quote. Can you? Or someone??!!

Luke 16:13 (NIV) "No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Mammon (money)."

You asked me why I trade. To make money of course.

 

[sails]

Actually I'm not saying you, pavillion or country lad should do anything other than what you're doing right now. But it does go very much against the teachings of the Bible. If you're happy to do that, I can't complain. Really what I'm wanting to know is how you reconcile this obvious clash of values in your own experience.

Pavillion won't comment on the Luke quote. Can you? Or someone??!!

Luke 16:13 (NIV) "No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Mammon (money)."

You asked me why I trade. To make money of course.

So you don't live by your own beliefs? Why do you expect others to live by your beliefs when you don't bother to live by your own?

 

[pavilion103]

Ok if you want a specific comment on that verse thats ok.

What does is mean to make money a "Master"?
It means to make it the controlling thing in your life that you aspire to above God. I agree that that is not appropriate for a Christian.

Money is not the main driver in my life. I wake up at 5:30am each morning to spend time in prayer, I attend/help out at three church services a week. I just got back from two weeks of camps including being a leader in a dorm of six children, I run a feeding the homeless breakfast monthly in the city. I give 10% of my income to supporting church projects. God is the centre of my life.

Money for me is about freedom. The freedom to not work a job. The freedom to give more freely (one of my main passions is missionary trips - I'm going to India in a month). And possibly to eventually move into community involvement full time.

I have zero aspiration for a big house or a good car. I enjoy the simple life but don't begrudge anyone who wants all that.


So many people think that making money a master means having lots of money. This could not be further from the truth. It is what you do with the money that determines if it is your master. Someone who is poor can be mastered by money just as much as someone who is rich. They can be stingy or desire money above all.

Certainly the verse - to whom much is given, much is expected is a big responsibility for those Christians acquiring wealth. But when you look at those in the Bible that God blessed financially e.g. Solomon, it is obvious that God (from a Christian perspective) has nothing against anyone being wealthy, provided they use the money for His glory.


You often say in posts that someone is fishing and don't entertain their posts. I feel the same way with you. Yet I post this for the purpose of others viewing.

The ironic thing is much of what you say goes against your own spiritual beliefs.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

So you don't live by your own beliefs? Why do you expect others to live by your beliefs when you don't bother to live by your own?

I'm not a Christian. I have studied it, along with other religions. I try not to have too many beliefs about anything, trading included. If I was to have one core belief it would be that beliefs can be a great hindrance. And I value consistency and honesty with oneself.

Still no comment on the Luke quote. Anybody? There's an elephant in the room. [edit] ahh there it is, thank you pavillion!

 

[sails]

I'm not a Christian. I have studied it, along with other religions. I try not to have too many beliefs about anything, trading included. If I was to have one core belief it would be that beliefs can be a great hindrance. And I value consistency and honesty with oneself.

Still no comment on the Luke quote. Anybody? There's an elephant in the room. [edit] ahh there it is, thank you pavillion!

Just because you have studied Christianity doesn't mean you have all the answers or even understand it. It seems rather strange that you are telling people how they should live based on ONE verse out of the entire Bible of which you have put your own interpretation.

Taking verses out of the bible in isolation isn't smart. Like the guy who was looking for guidance and flipped his bible open and his eyes fell on "And Judas went out and hanged himself". So he flipped again and his eyes fell on the verse "Go thou and do likewise".

I'm not interested in discussing your interpretation of one bible verse. I will say that the bible also says that the love of money is the root of all evil. Money itself is not evil.

Can I respectfully suggest you stick to what you know in future and stop attacking other posters based on what you assume?

 

[Gringotts Bank]

You often say in posts that someone is fishing and don't entertain their posts. I feel the same way with you. Yet I post this for the purpose of others viewing.

The ironic thing is much of what you say goes against your own spiritual beliefs.

I'm genuinely interested in how you reconcile that Bible quote with your trading. You answered, so thanks for that.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

I'm not interested in discussing your interpretation of one bible verse.

No, I realize that now. You have your own special interpretation that allows you to sleep at night, and I should leave you to it.

 

[sails]

No, I realize that now. You have your own special interpretation that allows you to sleep at night, and I should leave you to it.

Goodness, you like to bait.

Got nothing to do with sleeping at night. How about you answer these questions:

Would you believe a Christian shouldn't get a job because it would be denying someone else that job effectively robbing them of an income?

Would you believe a Christian should not run a business because you might be taking market share from someone else and effectively robbing them of income?

A trading business is no different.

So, if you are going to take you one little isolated bible verse to it's extremes, how do you expect a Christian to live? They are not allowed to steal, so how do they buy food?

You are lacking the practical side of this. And as I said in my last post it's the LOVE of money that can go wrong. It's an obsession with money where money is the MOST important thing in your life. Money in balance is no problem.

You are trying to base Christianity on one verse to which you have put your own interpretation and without the context of the entire Bible.

I look forward to your answers to my questions above.

And leave your personal swipes to me out of it. Next one I will report.

 

[Boggo]

Luke 16:13 (NIV) "No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Mammon (money)."

Try telling that to the world's biggest property owner - the Catholic Church :frown:

 

[bellenuit]

A trading business is no different.

Actually, trading shares seems quite a Christian thing to do.

When you buy some stock and eventually sell it, even when at a substantial profit, what happens?

When you buy, you have given the sellers the highest possible price at which they could sell the stock at that particular time. If you hadn't been in the market, the sellers would at best have got the same price, but probably would have got a lower price. When you eventually sell that stock, you have passed on that stock to the buyers at the lowest possible price at which they could obtain it, at that time. If you hadn't been in the market, the buyers would at best have had to pay the same for the stock, but probably would have had to pay more.

So your trading endeavour has helped two or more others and if you are lucky, you have also been rewarded with some profit. And if you were to give a portion of your profits to charity, well the benefits to society just multiply.

Hardly something to be ashamed of.

Alternatively you could pray that those in need are helped. Knowing from overwhelming observational evidence that praying has never relieved the suffering or misery of others, the latter would seem less Christian than the former.

BTW, I am not suggesting that most Christians just pray and do nothing else to help others. Some are in that category though. I'm trying to highlight that trading is not in itself an ignoble profession. You are helping provide an efficient market, which is the cornerstone of capitalist societies, and as the example shows, you are directly helping others. And why would it be less noble than working for a bank say. Often the main difference between a trader and other professions is that the profits go to you instead of the company.

IMO, it's what you do with what you have earned is what counts.

Getting back to serving two masters. Would one say that Bill Gates serves Mamon, being the richest man in the world? He clearly has his sights on helping those in need.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Goodness, you like to bait.

Got nothing to do with sleeping at night. How about you answer these questions:

Would you believe a Christian shouldn't get a job because it would be denying someone else that job effectively robbing them of an income?

Would you believe a Christian should not run a business because you might be taking market share from someone else and effectively robbing them of income?

A trading business is no different.

So, if you are going to take you one little isolated bible verse to it's extremes, how do you expect a Christian to live? They are not allowed to steal, so how do they buy food?

You are lacking the practical side of this. And as I said in my last post it's the LOVE of money that can go wrong. It's an obsession with money where money is the MOST important thing in your life. Money in balance is no problem.

You are trying to base Christianity on one verse to which you have put your own interpretation and without the context of the entire Bible.

A simple, humble life, providing for one's basic needs. Living a life of devotion and service to others (which one can be paid for). I'm not saying you or anyone else should do this. Absolutely not. But this is the sort of life that Jesus advocated.

Trading on a short term time frame is pretty close to a zero sum game, particularly in the small cap end of town. One winner and one loser... or one big winner an many smaller losers. Is that ok? Taking advantage of those less clever than myself? I'm ok with it because no one is forced to trade; it's a choice. But there is no service provided to the community. The job of trading exists only to "take", whereas all other jobs provide a good or service in exchange for payment. Providing liquidity is done by the big boys, imo. I think there would be plenty of liquidity without us retail traders. I was just surprised that a Christian would be ok with it, given what the Bible says. Pavillion's answer was reasonably satisfying for me in the sense that he would seem to be internally consistent. Not that he or you have to satisfy any requirements by me, but you can see why I would question your motives for trading. Attachment to money (or the love of money) would be suspected in anyone who does a lot of short term trading.

 

[CanOz]

GB, this is getting ridiculous. Trading is no different than any other business. Its an auction. So if Christians are buying art, and the seller sells a painting to someone who is willing to pay more for the art than the seller originally paid, is this against the teaching of the bible as well?

Almost all commerce today would exclude Christians going by what you are saying. Obviously the bible was written a long time ago, before the state of the current world could even be imagined.

I think this argument should be left alone, you've made your point, its time you accept that others have a different belief than you on the matter.

 

[pavilion103]

Jesus spoke the parable about the men who were given "talents" (a sum of money)

One man receives 5, another 2 and another 1.

When the master returned the first 2 men told him how they had doubled his money. Each was rewarded.
The third man who was given the 1 talent buried his money so he didn't lose it. The master blasted him and called him a lazy servant.
He took it away and gave it to the man who had 10.

Bottom line. Whatever we are entrusted with, including money, we are to be diligent with. God doesn't want us to be poor financially. He wants us to be poor in spirit (meaning we depend on Him and trust in Him with a humble spirit).

 

[sails]

A simple, humble life, providing for one's basic needs. Living a life of devotion and service to others (which one can be paid for). I'm not saying you or anyone else should do this. Absolutely not. But this is the sort of life that Jesus advocated.

Trading on a short term time frame is pretty close to a zero sum game, particularly in the small cap end of town. One winner and one loser... or one big winner an many smaller losers. Is that ok? Taking advantage of those less clever than myself? I'm ok with it because no one is forced to trade; it's a choice. But there is no service provided to the community. The job of trading exists only to "take", whereas all other jobs provide a good or service in exchange for payment. Providing liquidity is done by the big boys, imo. I think there would be plenty of liquidity without us retail traders. I was just surprised that a Christian would be ok with it, given what the Bible says. Pavillion's answer was reasonably satisfying for me in the sense that he would seem to be internally consistent. Not that he or you have to satisfy any requirements by me, but you can see why I would question your motives for trading. Attachment to money (or the love of money) would be suspected in anyone who does a lot of short term trading.

Ahh - but that's because you are too black and white in your thinking, imo. You are not taking into consideration different circumstances. Some people might trade from home because it means they can be home. Single parents who trade, for example, don't have to go out to work and can still be there for their children. People in other caring situations mean they can trade and still contribute to the needs of others.

For me, I have a daughter with a long term depression and between caring for her and her two girls aged 6 and 14, there is no way I could go out to work. This week alone I have dental and physio appointments for me, a CT scan for my daughter, a hospital appointment for 6 year old who was in hospital during the holidays, an appointment at headspace with the 14 year old. That's on top of the meals, washing, shopping, getting a 6 year old to and from school, homework and helping the 14 year old with assignments, etc, etc. I think you get the drift. But don't tell me I am not contributing to society even though they are my family. They would be up the creek without a paddle without us and probably my daughter would have suicided by now.

Money is not the important factor, albeit nice when the profits come. Trading gives me an interest and something other than the often very demanding job of caring.

Again, the bible says not to judge. And for good reason as we all have different circumstances.

 

[Julia]

GB, this is getting ridiculous.

+1. GB, I can't speak for others, but personally I value your presence on this forum for the colour and interest. It would be pretty dull if we all passively agreed with one another and no one ever raised a point of controversy.

But maybe consider that the backlash in this instance is because you might have got this one wrong to the point where your continuing to argue what you see as your point is becoming tedious and unreasonable.

 

[explod]

A simple, humble life, providing for one's basic needs. Living a life of devotion and service to others (which one can be paid for). I'm not saying you or anyone else should do this. Absolutely not. But this is the sort of life that Jesus advocated.

Trading on a short term time frame is pretty close to a zero sum game, particularly in the small cap end of town. One winner and one loser... or one big winner an many smaller losers. Is that ok? Taking advantage of those less clever than myself? I'm ok with it because no one is forced to trade; it's a choice. But there is no service provided to the community. The job of trading exists only to "take", whereas all other jobs provide a good or service in exchange for payment. Providing liquidity is done by the big boys, imo. I think there would be plenty of liquidity without us retail traders. I was just surprised that a Christian would be ok with it, given what the Bible says. Pavillion's answer was reasonably satisfying for me in the sense that he would seem to be internally consistent. Not that he or you have to satisfy any requirements by me, but you can see why I would question your motives for trading. Attachment to money (or the love of money) would be suspected in anyone who does a lot of short term trading.

Dog eat dog is the way of evolution and how we mastered other things in order to dominate the planet.

Trading on the puter is the same and some are better than others. In the cup soon the best horse will win.

Jesus has been left far behind ole pal so move on.

 

[bunyip]

My upbringing in a Christian family taught me that great things can be achieved through the power of prayer. I believed it because as small children we tend to believe everything our parents and church ministers and Sunday school teachers tell us.
But as I started growing up and thinking more for myself, it became obvious to me that the power of prayer was a myth. I lived in rural communities where ‘pray for rain’ meetings were held during severe droughts.........but the droughts continued unabated.
I heard prayers being said in church for congregation members who had terminal illnesses......but they died anyway.
I could give dozes of other examples, but suffice to say that I lost all faith in the power of prayer after seeing it fail over and over and over again.

Now, I know there are some devout Christians reading this thread who don't share my view that the power of prayer is a myth. So I thought we might run a little trial in an effort to sort the truth from the fiction on this issue.
We all know about the terrible bush fires presently ravaging the Sydney and Blue Mountains areas. We’re told that conditions are set to deteriorate in the next few days, with rising temperatures and winds increasing to 100 kph.
What I want every religious person on this thread to do is pray to your God to reverse those conditions. Ask him to provide cool days and calm winds so the people in that area are given a reprieve from further danger. Better still, ask God to send soaking rain over the fire-affected area for the next couple of days to douse existing fires and prevent any fresh outbreaks.

I’ll check back in a few days to see if the power of prayer has had any effect.

 

[cynic]

My upbringing in a Christian family taught me that great things can be achieved through the power of prayer. I believed it because as small children we tend to believe everything our parents and church ministers and Sunday school teachers tell us.
But as I started growing up and thinking more for myself, it became obvious to me that the power of prayer was a myth. I lived in rural communities where ‘pray for rain’ meetings were held during severe droughts.........but the droughts continued unabated.
I heard prayers being said in church for congregation members who had terminal illnesses......but they died anyway.
I could give dozes of other examples, but suffice to say that I lost all faith in the power of prayer after seeing it fail over and over and over again.

Now, I know there are some devout Christians reading this thread who don't share my view that the power of prayer is a myth. So I thought we might run a little trial in an effort to sort the truth from the fiction on this issue.
We all know about the terrible bush fires presently ravaging the Sydney and Blue Mountains areas. We’re told that conditions are set to deteriorate in the next few days, with rising temperatures and winds increasing to 100 kph.
What I want every religious person on this thread to do is pray to your God to reverse those conditions. Ask him to provide cool days and calm winds so the people in that area are given a reprieve from further danger. Better still, ask God to send soaking rain over the fire-affected area for the next couple of days to douse existing fires and prevent any fresh outbreaks.

I’ll check back in a few days to see if the power of prayer has had any effect.

Would you like any fries with your order ,sir?

 

[pavilion103]

My upbringing in a Christian family taught me that great things can be achieved through the power of prayer. I believed it because as small children we tend to believe everything our parents and church ministers and Sunday school teachers tell us. But as I started growing up and thinking more for myself, it became obvious to me that the power of prayer was a myth. I lived in rural communities where ‘pray for rain’ meetings were held during severe droughts.........but the droughts continued unabated. I heard prayers being said in church for congregation members who had terminal illnesses......but they died anyway. I could give dozes of other examples, but suffice to say that I lost all faith in the power of prayer after seeing it fail over and over and over again. Now, I know there are some devout Christians reading this thread who don't share my view that the power of prayer is a myth. So I thought we might run a little trial in an effort to sort the truth from the fiction on this issue. We all know about the terrible bush fires presently ravaging the Sydney and Blue Mountains areas. We’re told that conditions are set to deteriorate in the next few days, with rising temperatures and winds increasing to 100 kph. What I want every religious person on this thread to do is pray to your God to reverse those conditions. Ask him to provide cool days and calm winds so the people in that area are given a reprieve from further danger. Better still, ask God to send soaking rain over the fire-affected area for the next couple of days to douse existing fires and prevent any fresh outbreaks. I’ll check back in a few days to see if the power of prayer has had any effect.

You don't really understand prayer do you?
Trying to get God to do what you say to illustrate a point is the same as a guy who says to his girlfriend "you don't love me unless you have sex with me right now. Prove it"

You can't play games with God. It's a relationship and a sincere desire.

Look up something like the Asuza Street revival and see what eye witness accounts report about prayer. Evidence is out there (instantaneous healings etc) but people don't look. God WILL reveal himself to the genuine seeker. But to the man who what's to play games, he despises their actions the most, as most of us do.

 

[pavilion103]

I find it highly amusing that people who believe that there is no God spend so much time in these sorts of threads debating.

It's like if I didn't think a purple unicorn existed. I'd question my sanity if I spent countless hours and days debating its existence. I'd simply say "hmm ok you can believe that. I'm not going there. It doesn't exist and I won't waste my time talking about it."

Yet this is not the case. We all have an intrinsic knowledge that there is a God (who that God is is a separate discussion).. I don't know why so many people spend so much time fighting it. It's almost hilarious. Here fishy fishy...