Religion IS crazy!

[Value Collector]

If he's selling biscuits or similar, all he had to do is stick a message on it saying "there is no pork or alcohol in this product" . The idea that you have to pay some loonies to confirm that, when they probably don't even test anyway is ridiculous.

Yes, because a company would never lie, Look at the current VW scandal. turns out they have been lying about their cars emissions for years, customers thought they were buying eco friendly, turns out the emissions of certain chemicals are 40 times legal limits.

Also, Halal is a lot more than just alcohol and pork.

 

[Value Collector]

How dare they impose this on Australian manufacturers.


I WOULD SUGGEST THAT THIS IS AN IMPORTANT READ.
DICK SMITH'S MESSAGE TO ISLAM

There should be more leading Australians like Dick, he gets to the bottom of important issues and anything
that amounts to selling out Australia is very important. Please pass this on and on and on.





A WARNING FROM DICK SMITH:
You may be aware that " Dick Smith " chain franchise stores are being pressured by the Islamic Council of
Australia to gain 'Halal Certification' otherwise they will be proscribed and banned from Muslim custom.

This is their response:

A MESSAGE FROM DICK SMITH.
"We at Dick Smith's have received a number of letters from people asking if we will be putting the Muslim
Halal logo on our food.

To acquire Halal certification, payment is required to the endorsing body (the Islamic Council) and involves a
number of site inspections of both our growers and processors in order to ensure that our practices comply
with the conditions of Halal certification.
It is important to note that this does not reflect the quality of the food being processed or sold – it only
means that the products are approved as being prepared in accordance with the traditions of the Muslim
faith.
We are aware of an increasing number of large companies both in Australia and overseas, such as Kraft and
Cadbury, who have obtained accreditation to use the Halal logo. We don’t believe they have done this because
of any religious commitment but rather for purely commercial reasons. Perhaps these large organisations
can afford to do this.
While we have a choice however, we would prefer to avoid unnecessarily increasing the cost of our products
in order to pay for Halal accreditation when this money would be better spent continuing to support important
charitable causes where assistance is greatly needed.
We point out that we have never been asked to put a Christian symbol (or any other religious symbol) on our
food requiring that we send money to a Christian organisation for the right to do so.
Others would add that money paid to ANY Muslim 'organisation' (and you had better believe it: these people
ARE 'organised') can easily find its way into the hands of Islamic extremist-fanatics and murderers,
irrespective of assurances to the contrary.
What other assurances do we accept from Muslims?
Oh, that's right, 'Islam is a religion of PEACE'!
How less Australian can companies get, than to place money into the hands of those who seek to exploit us?"
This is an example of how the leaders of Muslims in Aus/NZ are bullying large commercial organisations
(especially in the food industry) into paying what is no more than blatant extortion money. The amazing part
is that these weak-kneed organisations (Cadbury/ Schweppes/ Nestles/ Kraft etc.) actually pay the large
sums demanded by these self-appointed religious bureaucrats. Of course, the manufacturers promptly pass this levy
on to unwitting consumers as cost increases. Next time you buy a block of Cadbury's chocolate,
look for the Halal Certification seal on the wrapper. So, regardless of your own religious faith, you end up
subsidizing Islam.
The Council also controls the Muslim voter bloc which, as yet, does not have sufficient critical mass to
make a difference - but give them time.
Several state jurisdictions are under pressure to adopt or permit Sharia Law in Marriage, Family and Property
matters and some, under the delusion that they are being progressively liberal, are permitting this. This has
already happened in some local authorities in the U.K.
Google the U.K. Education Department's current investigation into the conduct of Muslim-run schools in the
Birmingham area of England .

How many more warnings do people need?

Check the produce on the shelf and don't buy anything Muslim extorted.

THANK YOU FOR READING THIS RIGHT THROUGH TO THE END.......!

Dude, it literally took me 30 seconds to confirm that dick smith message is hoax.

It is so annoying when rubbish like this and even worse stuff is spread around face book without anyone taking 1 minute to verify is.

As I was reading certain parts of it I was thinking there is no way dick smith would say that, this has got to be a hoax, 30seconds later I confirmed it was a hoax, try and be more sceptical don't believe every thing you read, especially when it sounds like its coming from a person trying to stir trouble that doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

[SirRumpole]

Yes, because a company would never lie, Look at the current VW scandal. turns out they have been lying about their cars emissions for years, customers thought they were buying eco friendly, turns out the emissions of certain chemicals are 40 times legal limits.

People have an opportunity to test his claims. A Muslim organisation can have his biscuits scientifically analysed to see if they conform to what he says and if not they could take him to court for false advertising.

Just as VW was found out, so could anyone else.

Also, Halal is a lot more than just alcohol and pork.

You mean it has to be blessed by an Imam or something ?

I'm surprised that you would be condoning such medieval religious malarkey.

So does this mean there is a Muslim at every abattoir blessing each cow that get slaughtered ?

Don't be silly.

If I was a company and wanted to sell into a market and certification was required then I would do it and pass the charge on to the consumer, but that doesn't mean I can't point out how stupid and extortionate the whole process of religious certification is, whether it's Jewish, Muslim or any other religion.

It's a scam pure and simple.

 

[Value Collector]

People have an opportunity to test his claims. A Muslim organisation can have his biscuits scientifically analysed to see if they conform to what he says and if not they could take him to court for false advertising.

.

I don't know how you would test for all the different halal factors.

and surely if you were a Muslim you trust a company that's opened its door to your inspectors.

Not only that, its a two way street, the companies want to sell their products to Muslims, but are not experts on Halal, So they benefit in a few ways, during certification the company is taught the fine details of what is required to help them comply, the certification spots any areas of concern they company would miss by them selves, and then they get the logo, which makes their products more appealing to Muslims.

Just as VW was found out, so could anyone else.

If you honestly believed your eternal life way at risk, you probably wouldn't want to take the risk on self certified product.

You mean it has to be blessed by an Imam or something ?

no I mean there are other animals besides pig, and its not just pork but any swine products, eg a biscuit could contain a some other product that is derived from pigs.

I'm surprised that you would be condoning such medieval religious malarkey.

As I have always said, as long as no one is being harmed, I support peoples rights to practice religion.

If I was a company and wanted to sell into a market and certification was required then I would do it and pass the charge on to the consumer,

your talking about a fee that can be $2200, that's tiny compared to the marketing expense of selling into many other markets.

on 1,000,000 units, how much would have to increase the price to regain your $2,200, if it helps you sell 1% more units it pays for itself, KFC doesn't increase prices to fund the $1,000,000's they have spent sponsoring the cricket and other marketing, why a manufacturer have to increase prices to pay $2,200.

$2,200 would barely get your company name on the local under 18's netball shirts, have you ever worked in marketing?

 

[SirRumpole]

As I have always said, as long as no one is being harmed, I support peoples rights to practice religion.

So do I , but from comments you made on other threads about other religions I had formed the impression that you had made it your life's ambition to talk people out of superstitions towards more scientific, rational and enquiring lines of thought.

I must say I'm disappointed that you can ditch all that rhetoric very quickly when you see that there is a buck to be made out of religion.



And I also got the impression that you thought that people are being harmed simply by being driven by religion rather than evidence or logic. Correct or not ?

 

[Value Collector]

So do I , but from comments you made on other threads about other religions I had formed the impression that you had made it your life's ambition to talk people out of superstitions
I must say I'm disappointed that you can ditch all that rhetoric very quickly when you see that there is a buck to be made out of religion.

I certainly do try and talk people out of superstitions, towards more scientific, rational and enquiring lines of thought.

But as I said, I respect religious freedom, and I know we will never win any hearts or minds by trying to end religion by force or trying to infringe on peoples rights to practice their religion or spreading misinformation.

All the face book pages dedicated to attacking Halal foods, hijab wearing or Muslim refugees etc are not helping, its causing polarization, its whipping up irrational fear among Australians and pushing them into extremist positions and it making the Muslims feel threated, and making them retreat back to their enclaves and making them even further hard lined.

 

[SirRumpole]

All the face book pages dedicated to attacking Halal foods, hijab wearing or Muslim refugees etc are not helping, its causing polarization, its whipping up irrational fear among Australians and pushing them into extremist positions and it making the Muslims feel threated, and making them retreat back to their enclaves and making them even further hard lined.

I agree with that, but there seems to be little attempts at a more rational approach, liking simply telling people that the fundamental beliefs of their religion are invalid. In the nicest possible way of course.

 

[Value Collector]

simply telling people that the fundamental beliefs of their religion are invalid. In the nicest possible way of course.

I tell people that all the time, lol.

 

[SirRumpole]

All the face book pages dedicated to attacking Halal foods, hijab wearing or Muslim refugees etc are not helping, its causing polarization, its whipping up irrational fear among Australians and pushing them into extremist positions and it making the Muslims feel threated, and making them retreat back to their enclaves and making them even further hard lined.

Ah, I see where you are coming from, you are saying that because Muslims are a minority we shouldn't criticise them even when they are wrong in the same way as you would criticise say Catholics ?

I once posed the question, which I don't think you have answered, if Halal was a Catholic belief and not a Muslim one, would you criticise them for imposing their beliefs on others ?

 

[SirRumpole]

your talking about a fee that can be $2200, that's tiny compared to the marketing expense of selling into many other markets.

Sure, and once the company gets dependent on the Halal market the fee will go up and up and up.

 

[sydboy007]

I agree with that, but there seems to be little attempts at a more rational approach, liking simply telling people that the fundamental beliefs of their religion are invalid. In the nicest possible way of course.

The only people you'll help doing that are those who are already questioning.

I thoroughly recommend watching some of Matt's videos on youtube he has provided via the Atheist Debates Patreon Project.

His interviews with Robert m Price and Dr Jerry Coyne were very interesting.

matt ask Coyne how he goes about helping the religious understand the theory of evolution and his response was along the lines of he waits for them to come to him. When someone is questioning and looking for answers, they are far more open to hear what you are saying.

For someone who's deeply religious, coming to understand that their religion is akin to being conned you've been poisoned and this select group has the only cure, well that's not a one conversation revelation.

If someone tried to push their religious beliefs onto me, I'll push back, but I see no value in say going up to some JWs witnessing on the street and trying to force them to understand just how silly their beliefs are. When I hear someone religious say something that is clearly factually wrong, and where I feel I can explain in easily understood terms why they are wrong, I will do it.

Just as you probably find your hackles are raised when someone tries to convert you, they have a similar emotional response.

 

[sydboy007]

Ah, I see where you are coming from, you are saying that because Muslims are a minority we shouldn't criticise them even when they are wrong in the same way as you would criticise say Catholics ?

I once posed the question, which I don't think you have answered, if Halal was a Catholic belief and not a Muslim one, would you criticise them for imposing their beliefs on others ?

Do people have the right to choose what food they eat?

Do companies have the right to market their product as they see fit?

That's not to say you or myself or VC would agree on the decisions, but I will support the right of people and companies to make their choices as long as no one is being harmed, and the information provided is true.

How is it much different for someone choosing to eat kosher / halal food, because to them, in simplistic terms, it's the right thing to do, and someone deciding they wont bank with HSBC because they've been caught too many times money laundering for violent drug cartels, or boycotting VW because of the current scandal?

You could argue that religion is and off itself is harmful, purely because it encourages people to have an unrealistic view of the world, but unless you are proposing to ban religious freedom, we're stuck with it till enough people have opened their eyes and stop indoctrinating the next generation.

 

[SirRumpole]

The only people you'll help doing that are those who are already questioning.

I thoroughly recommend watching some of Matt's videos on youtube he has provided via the Atheist Debates Patreon Project.

His interviews with Robert m Price and Dr Jerry Coyne were very interesting.

matt ask Coyne how he goes about helping the religious understand the theory of evolution and his response was along the lines of he waits for them to come to him. When someone is questioning and looking for answers, they are far more open to hear what you are saying.

For someone who's deeply religious, coming to understand that their religion is akin to being conned you've been poisoned and this select group has the only cure, well that's not a one conversation revelation.

If someone tried to push their religious beliefs onto me, I'll push back, but I see no value in say going up to some JWs witnessing on the street and trying to force them to understand just how silly their beliefs are. When I hear someone religious say something that is clearly factually wrong, and where I feel I can explain in easily understood terms why they are wrong, I will do it.

Just as you probably find your hackles are raised when someone tries to convert you, they have a similar emotional response.

Yes, I think you are right there.

Once people have the cr.p scared out of them by the belief that they will rot in hell if they eat pork, reason doesn't enter into the equation.

 

[SirRumpole]

Do people have the right to choose what food they eat?

Do companies have the right to market their product as they see fit?

Yes and yes. I said before that if I was a company and I wanted access to foreign markets then I would go for the certification.

The problems I have are:

a. Are the companies going to make a "no Halal" product for the local market ? I don't want to contribute to a religion that thinks that sexism, arranged marriages, child brides, honour killings and female genital mutilation are OK practises in the modern age.

b. While the certification fees are low at the moment, we will see what happens when companies get dependent on the Halal market. Perhaps the certification authorities will then start screwing them for more fees. Then the prices start going up and the general consumers suffer.

c. The whole thing is a scam anyway enforced by a large number of ignorant people that have been sold a pile of poo.

 

[luutzu]

Ah, I see where you are coming from, you are saying that because Muslims are a minority we shouldn't criticise them even when they are wrong in the same way as you would criticise say Catholics ?

I once posed the question, which I don't think you have answered, if Halal was a Catholic belief and not a Muslim one, would you criticise them for imposing their beliefs on others ?

1.3 or so Billion people is no minority. But I get your point that in Australia they're a minority, though still don't think it's fair on VC given his... his messianic mission against religion... wouldn't surprise me if he start his own non-religious religion one day. haha

 

[luutzu]

Yes, I think you are right there.

Once people have the cr.p scared out of them by the belief that they will rot in hell if they eat pork, reason doesn't enter into the equation.

I think psychologically, if you're brought up to associate pork or alcohol or non-Halal food as wrong and unclean, I think you will feel physically ill if you eat them. So while it seems funny or just something superficial to us atheist or non Muslim/Jew... there is that real connection between the mind and the body.

I saw this Muslim lady at a chemist one time where she was really really serious about whether the mouth wash contains alcohol or not. She read the entire fine prints, weren't sure and go ask the chemist and they check it up. If there's a Halal logo on it life would be easier for them.

And if you are to buy a house, don't pick ones with numbers that add up to 4. So no 4, or 22, or 31... and none to 10 either. Asians, especially Chinese, will not buy it. 4 means death and 10 means bankruptcy... My folks found a house years back with number 40... it fits their direction, land was good, price was cheap but no one bought it and they didn't either until a monk my dad know asks how his house hunting was and he said he found the perfect one except for the number... lucky for us the monk said 40 is fine, as long as it's not 4.

 

[Value Collector]

P

Ah, I see where you are coming from, you are saying that because Muslims are a minority we shouldn't criticise them even when they are wrong in the same way as you would criticise say Catholics ?

I once posed the question, which I don't think you have answered, if Halal was a Catholic belief and not a Muslim one, would you criticise them for imposing their beliefs on others ?

What I am saying is I want people to allow Muslims all the same religious freedoms we would allow the Catholics, eg, you wouldn't start a hate group on face book asking to ban nuns from wearing veils, so don't try and ban burkas, no one has cared about kosher foods for the last 50years, so don't care about halal, no one protests churches being built, so don't protest a mosque.

No I wouldn't care if halal was Catholic, what Catholics eat is the least of my worries, the only time I will point out what A catholic eats is when they are trying to portray themselves as the pillars of society I will remind them that on Sunday's their blood cult pretends to eat human flesh, while their preist pretends to drink blood, and all this happens under a statue of their dead leader, buts that's just me stating the facts, and pointing out their silliness, when they are trying to gain respect because of their faith.

 

[pixel]

1.3 or so Billion people is no minority. But I get your point that in Australia they're a minority, though still don't think it's fair on VC given his... his messianic mission against religion... wouldn't surprise me if he start his own non-religious religion one day. haha

True, the 1.3 Billion are no minority, but the few 100 Thousand that made their way into Australia are.
Luckily for most of us, Australian society has adopted a fairly tolerant attitude in regard to people's beliefs; but that tolerance is based on mutual tolerance, with personal opinions and beliefs kept exactly that: personal and private. When a minority starts exposing their personal idiosyncrasies and pretends their beliefs to be superior to others, that's when they hit a sore spot with those of their neighbours who don't share that view.

I, too, much prefer a neighbour who doesn't take offense when offered a ham sandwich or a beer.

PS: VC, I don't think the comparison between a nun's veil and the burqa applies. A welder needs to wear a mask; a motorbike rider a helmet; a nun's habit is the dress of her profession. When entering civil society outside the confines of their job, they all conform to accepted dress standards. If they don't, they risk criticism by another minority whose members object to being confronted by what they consider inappropriate segregation.

 

[Value Collector]

PS: VC, I don't think the comparison between a nun's veil and the burqa applies. A welder needs to wear a mask; a motorbike rider a helmet; a nun's habit is the dress of her profession. When entering civil society outside the confines of their job, they all conform to accepted dress standards. If they don't, they risk criticism by another minority whose members object to being confronted by what they consider inappropriate segregation.

So is it to much to ask that women be allowed to wear any clothing they like, whether that be a nuns veil or a hijab or summer dress?

I mean that's not even really religious rights, that's just basic personal freedom.

but look as much as I dislike religion and superstition, we need to allow people the freedom to practice them as they wish as long as they are doing no harm to others.

If the religious do one this well, it's playing the victim card, if you give them any reason to feel oppressed, we are actually helping their cause, look at tink, she genuinely feels extending rights to gays, somehow is an attack on hear, heaven forbid we actually tried to ban some thing.

 

[luutzu]

True, the 1.3 Billion are no minority, but the few 100 Thousand that made their way into Australia are.
Luckily for most of us, Australian society has adopted a fairly tolerant attitude in regard to people's beliefs; but that tolerance is based on mutual tolerance, with personal opinions and beliefs kept exactly that: personal and private. When a minority starts exposing their personal idiosyncrasies and pretends their beliefs to be superior to others, that's when they hit a sore spot with those of their neighbours who don't share that view.

I, too, much prefer a neighbour who doesn't take offense when offered a ham sandwich or a beer.

PS: VC, I don't think the comparison between a nun's veil and the burqa applies. A welder needs to wear a mask; a motorbike rider a helmet; a nun's habit is the dress of her profession. When entering civil society outside the confines of their job, they all conform to accepted dress standards. If they don't, they risk criticism by another minority whose members object to being confronted by what they consider inappropriate segregation.

I'm sure there's always a few, in any group we care to mention, that'll take their beliefs and religion very very seriously and will not tolerate anyone or anything that goes against such beliefs.

The Muslims I know and live around.. .they don't take offend to me or their neighbours not practising their religion or follow their customs and tradition. I mean, right on Haldon St, maybe the main street of Arab Muslims in Sydney [?], there's a bottle shop, a block behind there's an RSL club - serving beer and a pokie or two; there's a about 3 churches, a couple Catholic schools etc. etc. None of these non-Muslim, non-Islamic stuff are vandalised or protested against.

And neither I or any one I know are forced to wear or dress as they do... most actually dress like most of us, only now and then on prayer days or Ramadan that there's more traditional kind of dress code.

And just like that lady at the chemist checking out if what she plans to buy contain alcohol... she didn't go all crazy and complaint why the chemist not stock Halal stuff only etc... she just know what she want and will only buy what she want... If that bottle contain alcohol, she put it back.

Being tolerant is not just about us tolerating their beliefs and customs when it suits us. They could wear and choose whatever food or drink they like, as long as you and I and others aren't banned or harm by it... that's what freedom is - we got our freedom to do what we want, they got theirs to do as they want... as long as one does not oppress the other, it's all cool by me.