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Religion IS crazy!

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SirRumpole said:
The distinction you are trying to make between atheism and anti-theism doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter if people kill "in the name" of atheism. The Chinese Communists, North Koreans and North Vietnamese are atheists and see religion as a threat to their power so they kill religious people and burn their churches and books.

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Off course it matters, because there is a big difference between a person who is atheist deciding to kill some one for some reason and atheism being the cause of the killing.

Eg, If you slept with my wife, and I got angry and killed you, atheism wasn't the cause, I didn't kill you because of my atheism, I killed you because I was angry that you slept with my wife.

There is no direct line from my atheism to violence, there is not dogma instructing it, any violence has to come from my own ideas.

However the tribal witch doctors, being burned alive in Africa recently by Christians has direct links with the bible verses saying, "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live".

The communists killed to spread communism,

Atheism is one answer to a single question,

Do you believe in a god?

If you answer no, your an atheist, any other opinion you have is something else.

The people are still dead because they were religious people
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They are dead because a morally bankrupt group of communists, saw them as a threat to their power, not because their attackers were atheist.
 
Value Collector said:
They are dead because a morally bankrupt group of communists, saw them as a threat to their power, not because their attackers were atheist.
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No, it's the same thing really. Religious people (IS) kill others because the ones they kill are not in their "gang", atheist Communists kill for the same reason. If you don't want to blame atheism for genocide, then you can't blame religion either.
 
SirRumpole said:
No, it's the same thing really. Religious people (IS) kill others because the ones they kill are not in their "gang", atheist Communists kill for the same reason. If you don't want to blame atheism for genocide, then you can't blame religion either.
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A false premise has led you to a false conclusion. A proclaimed atheist who kills for any reason is not motivated to do so by non-belief in imaginary God's, atheist scriptures commanding the death of believers, is offended by cartoons depicting atheist deities or simply because someone is not an atheist. Hence, being an atheist neither compels nor incites other atheists to do anything collectively other than agree there is insufficient evidence for the existence of any God concept. Seriously, do you not understand this?
 
FxTrader said:
A false premise has led you to a false conclusion. A proclaimed atheist who kills for any reason is not motivated to do so by non-belief in imaginary God's, atheist scriptures commanding the death of believers, is offended by cartoons depicting atheist deities or simply because someone is not an atheist. Hence, being an atheist neither compels nor incites other atheists to do anything collectively other than agree there is insufficient evidence for the existence of any God concept. Seriously, do you not understand this?
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I suppose you believe that a religious person who kills anyone is always solely motivated by religion ?

Were pedophiles in the Catholic church motivated by religion or just lust ?

What I am saying, which you have ignored, is that violence committed by Islamists is the same as that committed by atheist communists; it's motivated by hatred of people not in their "gang". This sort of violence does not require religion or lack of it, simply a dislike or hatred for people who are not like them in whatever way they choose to define.

Can you understand this ?
 
When Richard Dawkins said he was going to stop the Pope from entering England, they all jumped up and down, listening to their messiah.
 
SirRumpole said:
No, it's the same thing really. Religious people (IS) kill others because the ones they kill are not in their "gang", atheist Communists kill for the same reason. If you don't want to blame atheism for genocide, then you can't blame religion either.
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No, they kill them because their bible or Qu'ran instructs them to Kill witches, gays, adulterers, atheists etc. They want to get on the right side of their god, so they do it.

I am not talking about territorial disputes etc, I am talking about the murders, directly relating to opinions based on scripture or religious laws.

There is a direct line from the beheadings of infidels, burning of witches etc to instructions in scripture.
 
SirRumpole said:
I suppose you believe that a religious person who kills anyone is always solely motivated by religion ?
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Neither FX trader, or I have ever said that.

Were pedophiles in the Catholic church motivated by religion or just lust ?
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It was probably a sick lust and need for sexual attention, caused by years of sexual repression due to the catholic church demonising and suppressing normal healthy sexual behaviour.

The catholic churches actions of covering up and hiding the pedophiles is also what a lot of people are against.


What I am saying, which you have ignored, is that violence committed by Islamists is the same as that committed by atheist communists;
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No it's not, but even if it were, it still wouldn't be caused by atheism, which was the original charge you are supposed to be defending.

Please remember, your supposed to be finding examples of atheists killing for atheism, which is what Pav, Tink and many other theists have tried to say atheism is guilty of.
 
Value Collector said:
Please remember, your supposed to be finding examples of atheists killing for atheism, which is what Pav, Tink and many other theists have tried to say atheism is guilty of.
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Thanks, but I don't have to conform to your agenda.

You just can't accept that atheists killed people because of their religion. You are as much an apologist for genocide as you accuse me of being.
 
SirRumpole said:
I suppose you believe that a religious person who kills anyone is always solely motivated by religion? Were pedophiles in the Catholic church motivated by religion or just lust ?
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Do you actually think before blurt out rhetorical questions that don't support your point? Where have I implied that all religious people who kill do so solely for religious motives, it's the predominant motive and JUSTIFICATION for many and something you can't seem to grasp in spite of the mountain of evidence to the contrary.

What I am saying, which you have ignored, is that violence committed by Islamists is the same as that committed by atheist communists; it's motivated by hatred of people not in their "gang". This sort of violence does not require religion or lack of it, simply a dislike or hatred for people who are not like them in whatever way they choose to define.
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I know exactly what you're saying and it's fallacious logic deployed as part of your desperate plea to portray religion as good because it's useful and atheism as just another religious tribe. You clearly lack the mental clarity to discern the difference between atheism and communism and falsely conflate the two to suit your absurd argument that tribalism is the real root cause of the barbarism and savagery we see from groups like the Taliban.

Your irrational loathing of atheism and blatant pandering to religion just reinforces the impression that if not a person with religious inclinations you certainly argue like one and use the same rhetoric. No surprise then that slaves to religious dogma like Pav and Tink jump at the chance to defend your line of reasoning here.
 
Value Collector said:
Please remember, your supposed to be finding examples of atheists killing for atheism, which is what Pav, Tink and many other theists have tried to say atheism is guilty of.
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Certain Bolshevik factions in early 20th century Russia definitely did.... there was a heavy sentiment against religion, especially the organised kind, and many innocent clergy were systematically eradicated by Marxist-Leninist types. In fact, I believe the term "militant atheism" originated, or at the very least was used heavily in descriptions of this era.

It's not hard to find other examples, as equally, it's not hard to for you find examples of slaughter by religious types.
 
Hitler who claimed to be Christian (what??) acted out of atheistic world view (no god). Survival of the fittest. Not all individuals have value. Kill those who don't, to make way for the fittest. Help our society evolve quicker.
 
SirRumpole said:
Thanks, but I don't have to conform to your agenda.

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then don't try and answer my question if you don't want to answer it.

You just can't accept that atheists killed people because of their religion. You are as much an apologist for genocide as you accuse me of being
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Hang on, isn't your position that people don't kill for religion? and they only kill for their gang or for other reasons?


Your not really making sense, your saying on one hand that Islamists don't kill because of religious doctrine, but then you accuse atheists who have no doctrine of killing for religion.
 
Ves said:
Certain Bolshevik factions in early 20th century Russia definitely did.... there was a heavy sentiment against religion, especially the organised kind, and many innocent clergy were systematically eradicated by Marxist-Leninist types. In fact, I believe the term "militant atheism" originated, or at the very least was used heavily in descriptions of this era.

It's not hard to find other examples, as equally, it's not hard to for you find examples of slaughter by religious types.
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What your describing there is Anti-Theism, not atheism.

Their anti-theism would have been inspired by political motives not a simple unbelief in any gods.

Atheism is simply the position of disbelief in any gods, nothing else, any political agenda you want to add to that is something else. you can be atheist liberal, labor, green, capitalist, communist, or anything else, none of those other things are atheism though.

and you don't have to be atheist to be an antitheist, you can believe in a god like rumpole does, but still want to burn religion to the ground.

Coming to the conclusion that no gods exist, does not lead you to wanting to kill believers, something else has to promote that idea. However becoming convinced a certain god exists and a certain religion is true, can directly lead you to acting on the religious texts which instruct you to kill people.
 
pavilion103 said:
Hitler who claimed to be Christian (what??) acted out of atheistic world view (no god) Survival of the fittest. Not all individuals have value. Kill those who don't, to make way for the fittest. Help our society evolve quicker..
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none of those things you mentioned are atheism.

Atheism is just a belief that no gods exist, anything else you added such as " Survival of the fittest. Not all individuals have value. Kill those who don't, to make way for the fittest. Help our society evolve quicker" are ideas outside of pure atheism.

what your describing is social Darwinism, a concept that would be rejected by pretty much every atheist I have ever met. I have never met a person who believes social Darwinism is the correct way to build a society.

Hitler who claimed to be Christian (what??) acted out of atheistic world view (no god)
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Even if he wasn't Christian, the traditional catholic mistrust of Jews certainly influenced him, and he used it to his advantage to get other Christians to do his bidding
 
Ves said:
I guess they just called themselves the League of Militant Atheists for fun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Militant_Atheists

We've had this discussion before. Word games and historical revisionism bore me. They obviously interest you greatly though.
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you can call yourself what ever you want, and they may have infact been atheists, but their actions were not caused by it.

I mean if the local cricket club started killing people, you can't say it was caused by cricket. they may all be cricketers, but it takes more than that to start a killing spree. It may be the cricket club also has extreme racist views that lead to the murders, but to suggest cricket caused the racism is silly

how can not believing in a god, cause you to kill people? there has to be more to it, there is no rational line of thinking that can make a person who becomes unconvinced a god exists, decide that he know needs to kill people.
 
Value Collector said:
Your not really making sense, your saying on one hand that Islamists don't kill because of religious doctrine, but then you accuse atheists who have no doctrine of killing for religion.
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I said communists killed religious people because the people they killed were religious, and they saw religion as a threat.

I've repeatedly said that religion is a motivation for SOME in IS, generally it is the footsoldiers who get killed that allow themselves to be manipulated by others who stay behind the lines.

If it wasn't religion, the motivation would be some other perceived affront or persecution excuse that the masterminds could make up to inspire their footsoldiers. That's the way human nature works, no one likes getting the rough end of a stick. eg I doubt if many of the Palestinians in Gaza throw missiles at the Israelis because of religion, they are getting pushed off their land and want it to stop.

Your irrational loathing of atheism and blatant pandering to religion
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I have no loathing of atheism, just of bigoted atheists who see religion as their enemy and therefore try to destroy it even though the vast majority of religious people are good citizens who don't deserve the cr@p that people like you throw at them.
 
SirRumpole said:
I said communists killed religious people because the people they killed were religious, and they saw religion as a threat.
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Thanks for establishing that, but I was asking you to provide examples of atheists that had killed because of or for their atheism, not communists killing religious people.

I've repeatedly said that religion is a motivation for SOME in IS, generally it is the footsoldiers who get killed that allow themselves to be manipulated by others who stay behind the lines
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Ok, now we are making progress, so now you admit that religion in some cases is motivation for killing, please provide an example where atheism has been the motivation.

And remember, I don't want an example of an atheist that has killed for some other reason, I want an example of an atheist who's disbelief in god was the prime motivation for killing.
 
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