Religion IS crazy!

Joe Blow · 17 September 2014

bunyip said:
A MESSAGE FROM DICK SMITH.
"We at Dick Smith's have received a number of letters from people asking if we will be putting the Muslim Halal logo on our food.

To acquire Halal certification, payment is required to the endorsing body (the Islamic Council) and involves a number of site inspections of both our growers and processors in order to ensure that our practices comply with the conditions of Halal certification.

It is important to note that this does not reflect the quality of the food being processed or sold – it only means that the products are approved as being prepared in accordance with the traditions of the Muslim faith.

We are aware of an increasing number of large companies both in Australia and overseas, such as Kraft and Cadbury, who have obtained accreditation to use the Halal logo. We don’t believe they have done this because of any religious commitment but rather for purely commercial reasons. Perhaps these large organisations can afford to do this.

While we have a choice however, we would prefer to avoid unnecessarily increasing the cost of our products in order to pay for Halal accreditation when this money would be better spent continuing to support important charitable causes where assistance is greatly needed.

We point out that we have never been asked to put a Christian symbol (or any other religious symbol) on our food requiring that we send money to a Christian organisation for the right to do so.

Bunyip, just for the sake of accuracy, I want to point out that what you have quoted there is not a verbatim quote from the Dick Smith website. What is actually on Dick's website is:

We have received a number of letters from people asking if we will be putting the Muslim Halal logo on our food.

To acquire Halal certification, payment is required to the endorsing body and involves a number of site inspections of both our growers and processors in order to ensure that our practices comply with the conditions of Halal certification. It is important to note that this does not reflect the quality of the food being processed or sold – it only means that the products are approved as being prepared in accordance with the traditions of the Muslim faith.

We are aware of an increasing number of large companies both in Australia and overseas, such as Kraft and Cadbury, who have obtained accreditation to use the Halal logo. We don’t believe they have done this because of any religious commitment but rather for purely commercial reasons. Perhaps these large organisations can afford to do this. While we have a choice however, we would prefer to avoid unnecessarily increasing the cost of our products in order to pay for Halal accreditation when this money would be better spent continuing to support important charitable causes where assistance is greatly needed.

http://www.dicksmithfoods.com.au/media/news/halal-certification-our-food

I'm not sure where that last paragraph came from, but it is not from Dick Smith or his company. It's always a good idea to follow links personally to confirm that quotes on other websites are reproduced accurately.

Not taking sides here, just making sure that Dick Smith is not misrepresented here at ASF.

bunyip · 17 September 2014

Duckman#72 said:
It amazes me to think that non-Catholics can have more behavioural expectations of Priests than Catholics actually do!!!

Duckman

Do we?? I don’t know what you expect of Catholic priests, Duckman, but what I and every other decent person expects from them is decency, respect for other people, and the most severe condemnation and punishment for priests who abuse their positions by sexual exploiting little kids. This should include the Catholic church booting them out of the priesthood and the church, publicly denouncing them and handing them over to the police, and cooperating in every way with police action to bring charges against them and make those charges stick.
What we don’t expect is for these vermin to be protected and promoted by church hierarchy who are every bit as low as the scum they protect.

bunyip · 17 September 2014

Joe Blow said:
Bunyip, just for the sake of accuracy, I want to point out that what you have quoted there is not a verbatim quote from the Dick Smith website. What is actually on Dick's website is:

http://www.dicksmithfoods.com.au/media/news/halal-certification-our-food

I'm not sure where that last paragraph came from, but it is not from Dick Smith or his company. It's always a good idea to follow links personally to confirm that quotes on other websites are reproduced accurately.

Not taking sides here, just making sure that Dick Smith is not misrepresented here at ASF.

Fair enough then Joe, thanks for pointing that out. While I'd be pretty confident that Dick has not in fact ever been pressured by any other religion, if he hasn't actually said so then I should have left that part out. My mistake there.

Value Collector · 17 September 2014

i have no problem with food companies choosing to get halal certification, to me its no different from a kosher certification or even a heart tick or any other paid for labelling such as world wildlife fund, or the many others.

These things don't add a cost, they generally come from the marketing budget, and are paid for by greater acceptance of the product. Eg the marketing budget will get spent anyway, whether its tv ads, facebook promotion or in store samples, and the costs on average will be recovered.

SirRumpole · 18 September 2014

Value Collector said:
i have no problem with food companies choosing to get halal certification, to me its no different from a kosher certification or even a heart tick or any other paid for labelling such as world wildlife fund, or the many others.

These things don't add a cost, they generally come from the marketing budget, and are paid for by greater acceptance of the product. Eg the marketing budget will get spent anyway, whether its tv ads, facebook promotion or in store samples, and the costs on average will be recovered.

Supermarkets choosing to get a certification is up to them. For consumers (hopefully the people who actually matter) a heart certification indicates some benefit for the consumer, a halal certification indicates a tick from some looney religious organisation that the food conforms to their supposedly archaic requirements. I think I would deliberately choose to avoid such produce, as I would avoid going to church wherever possible.

Julia · 18 September 2014

SirRumpole said:
Supermarkets choosing to get a certification is up to them. For consumers (hopefully the people who actually matter) a heart certification indicates some benefit for the consumer, a halal certification indicates a tick from some looney religious organisation that the food conforms to their supposedly archaic requirements. I think I would deliberately choose to avoid such produce, as I would avoid going to church wherever possible.

+1. Mostly because of halal animal slaughter rules.

I can't see a valid comparison with the Heart Foundation tick. That is given on sound nutritional basis and, given the massive problem in this country with obesity, the population needs all the nutritional help it can get.

Value Collector · 18 September 2014

SirRumpole said:
Supermarkets choosing to get a certification is up to them. For consumers (hopefully the people who actually matter) a heart certification indicates some benefit for the consumer, a halal certification indicates a tick from some looney religious organisation that the food conforms to their supposedly archaic requirements. I think I would deliberately choose to avoid such produce, as I would avoid going to church wherever possible.

Supermarkets don't get certification, individual products do. So if your a company that makes products that already meet the halal requirements, why not get the certification if it will mean you get a few extra sales.

Halal just means "lawful", under Muslim law, Muslims, like many religions have rules about what they can eat. A halal certification just means it conforms to Muslim law. Even some banks offer Halal home loans, would you avoid a bank because they offer loans marked as halal?

For example, a well known fish processor recently got halal certification, because they were able to show that no pig products were used in the processing their fish. They will probably get more sales now as muslims choose their product over another uncertified product.

It doesn't affect you, the product wasn't changed.

Just like oreo chocolate biscuits recently advertise that they are vegan, because they don't contain diary or animal products, Just because I am not vegan doesn't mean I should avoid the biscuits.

Value Collector · 18 September 2014

Julia said:
+1. Mostly because of halal animal slaughter rules.

.

When it comes to animal slaughter, it's never going to be pleasant. However, Saying that for the majority of the last 1500 years, the Halal method of animal slaughter was the best practice and most humane method for killing an animal.

Halal law states that animals can only be killed if the sharpest blade available is used, and the method is a swift cut to the throat severing the vital blood and air passages, and all undue stress on the animal is avoided. When these laws were introduced, they were ahead of their time, and until the advent of the modern methods involving electric shock and stun guns in the last 100years or so, they were the best practise.

which brings us back to one of my main problems with religion, they resist change and get stuck in old laws even when newer ways are found.

But, our modern methods are not perfect, there are many stories of pigs waking up after the electric shock or c02 and still alive and awake as they pass through the gas burners that disinfect the body and burn of its hair, or cows that aren't killed by the stun gun puncturing their skull.

the modern methods can have so many problems, its law that the throat is still cut after the stun gun, electric shock or c02 immersion.

Julia · 18 September 2014

VC, I could do without all the graphic description, thanks. If the animal is properly stunned that has to be preferable imo, except for intravenous euthanasia which obviously isn't going to happen.

You're welcome to buy all the halal food you like. I would be looking for an alternative.

Value Collector · 18 September 2014

Julia said:
VC, I could do without all the graphic description, thanks .

Sorry, I didn't think I was being graphic, I was just discussing the topic.

If the animal is properly stunned that has to be preferable imo

,

Yes, I agree, and 88% of animals processed for the halal market are stunned.

My main point is that I am all for pointing out terrible things that religion do or have done, I just don't think the Halal meat processing is one of the terrible things. It's probably one of the good things they have done.

Offcourse there is all sorts of misinformation about halal because most people don't know what it is, but the reality is it's nothing to worry about.

You're welcome to buy all the halal food you like. I would be looking for an alternative

Some of the alternatives are not that flash, and as I said a lot of foods are already halal, so no changes are required to processing facilities. the fact that Australian law requires the throat to be cut after stunning makes most places halal by default.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/may/08/what-does-halal-method-animal-slaughter-involve

McLovin · 18 September 2014

Julia said:
VC, I could do without all the graphic description, thanks. If the animal is properly stunned that has to be preferable imo, except for intravenous euthanasia which obviously isn't going to happen.

You're welcome to buy all the halal food you like. I would be looking for an alternative.

Almost all the meat sold as Halal in Australia involves non-lethal stunning to render the animal unconscious before killing.

Julia · 18 September 2014

McLovin said:
Almost all the meat sold as Halal in Australia involves non-lethal stunning to render the animal unconscious before killing.

How can you be so sure of that? I hope you're right.
(I have no greater confidence that non-halal killing is meticulous about animal welfare.)

McLovin · 18 September 2014

Julia said:
How can you be so sure of that? I hope you're right.
(I have no greater confidence that non-halal killing is meticulous about animal welfare.)

The standard for meat production in Australia is that all animals must be effectively stunned (unconscious) prior to slaughter. The vast majority of halal slaughter in Australia complies with this standard. The only difference with halal slaughter is that it uses a reversible stunning method, while conventional humane slaughter uses an irreversible stunning method.

http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-is-halal-slaughter-in-Australia_116.html

Almost all animals are slaughtered in a Halal way. Some of that meat will not be certified Halal because of it coems into contact with things that make it no longer Halal (don't ask me what those things are because I've got NFI! ) or because the producer can't be bothered with the expense of certification etc.

SirRumpole · 18 September 2014

Regardless of the benefits or otherwise of Halal food, if you have to pay the Islamic Council for certification, in today's circumstances do you know where that money is going to ?

McLovin · 18 September 2014

SirRumpole said:
Regardless of the benefits or otherwise of Halal food, if you have to pay the Islamic Council for certification, in today's circumstances do you know where that money is going to ?

Yeah it must be going to terrorism.

I'm out of this thread.

SirRumpole · 18 September 2014

McLovin said:
Yeah it must be going to terrorism.

I'm out of this thread.

Bye McLovin.

Everyone says it MUST be such and such in order to disparage others. False argument. PERHAPS some money is going to terrorism. Who handles the money, what are their links with terrorists ? These things should be investigated.

Value Collector · 18 September 2014

SirRumpole said:
. PERHAPS some money is going to terrorism.

do you know of any information that suggests it does?

Who handles the money,?

Why don't you call them and find out more about their organisation? Have you done any research into their organisation?

These things should be investigated

We have some very good anti terrorist agencies in Australia, who's job it is to investigate such things and monitor financial transactions. It is not our job to assume every Muslim organisation or charity is funding terrorism.

SirRumpole · 18 September 2014

It is not our job to assume every Muslim organisation or charity is funding terrorism.

Neither can we assume they are not.

You seem to have changed your tune about religion. Are you NOW giving them the benefit of the doubt ?

Value Collector · 18 September 2014

Julia said:
How can you be so sure of that? I hope you're right.
(I have no greater confidence that non-halal killing is meticulous about animal welfare.)

Here is what the Halal Australia says about animal welfare, you will see animal welfare is at the core of the halal laws.

It ensures that not only are the animals killed swiftly, but also other rules about not taking babies from mothers, and not mishandling them.

Is Halal meat slaughtered humanely?

Treating animals humanely and with utmost respect is integral to Islamic teachings. Animals are recognized in Islam as being “nations such as yourselves”. In the context of Halal there are many requirements that advance these objectives. For example, young animals are not to be taken from their mothers too early to minimize their distress and animals must not be subjected to harsh treatment. Muslims are to “lead [animals] in a beautiful way” and as such must not be pushed, pulled, mutilated or slaughtered in front of each other. They must never be shown the knife to be used for the slaughter. Animals must also be offered a drink of water before slaughter. The instrument must be extremely sharp to ensure one swift, clean cut of jugular veins, trachea and esophagus, so as not to cause undue suffering. Islam even specifies the arteries that are to be cut to ensure the maximum convulsion of the muscles and withdrawal of blood so as to cause the animal to lose consciousness of the pain. Modern scientific principles confirm the efficacy of this technique.

.

Value Collector · 18 September 2014

SirRumpole said:
Neither can we assume they are not.

I think we should Assume innocence until proven guilty, or at least until we have evidence that wrong doing is going on rather than basing the assumption on bigotry.

You seem to have changed your tune about religion. Are you NOW giving them the benefit of the doubt

Have I ever said we should assume all religious groups are terrorists?

I haven't changed my tune, as I said there is lots of things wrong with Islam, and Halal isn't one of them, of all the things they have done wrong, Halal animal treatment is something they got right. I am not a fan of attacking a group based on misinformation, and I don't like to assume guilt.

Talk about Halal meat and people go nuts, ask them what it is, and they give you a dumb look or some crazy explanation.

Religion IS crazy!

Joe Blow

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Religion IS crazy!

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Have courage, and be kind.

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