Religion IS crazy!

[SirRumpole]

Just wondering why suddenly it's OK to label someone a bigot because they despise what is done in the name of religion?

The quote from Pager was "Religion is pure evil". This is obviously untrue. People you meet every day may have religious beliefs, go to church on Sundays and never hurt anyone. Why should they or their beliefs be called "pure evil" ?

By all means denounce extremist religious nutcases, but making such a broad and ridiculous statement about religion in general is obviously bigoted, thus the criticism I made of that statement.

 

[Hodgie]

Is it bigotry - particularly when Pager's remark was made in the context of the depraved behaviour of ISIS - to so denounce religion? It's a particularly unpleasant and harsh word imo and doesn't seem any more required here than, for example, following the many similar sentiments from FX Trader, VC, and myself for that matter.

Just wondering why suddenly it's OK to label someone a bigot because they despise what is done in the name of religion?


Last week, ABC Radio Evenings had an interview with the local councillor about this. I didn't take too much notice because it's a long way from me, but she listed many concerns, very much including noise for surrounding residents, can't remember most of the others now, but just a dislike of Muslims seemed not to feature much.
Doesn't mean it isn't there, however. Most people are too conscious of the ever present political correctness police to make any such criticism.

With that bigotry comment I didn't mean to specifically target anyone at all. I was just saying that if in fact there are bigots around on ASF they were always there, they had just not commented on this thread. I could have probably been more careful with my wording there. No offense intended.

I would be what I see VC refer to as an agnostic atheist. I'm not particularly against any religion, there has just been no evidence for me to be convinced or believe in what any of them teach.

I admit I have not closely followed the developments in the whole Mosque issue further than what I hear on the radio and see in the news because other than it taking up room which I personally think could be used for better purposes I'm not too bothered about it. I do not know how informed the general public are in terms of noise pollution or any other issues which may arise. I do know however that most of the locals that were ringing up the radio station on the way home from work on Friday were not concerned with these issues, nearly every caller was commenting on what is occurring overseas right now and it was very much a 'how dare they come into our country' vibe to it. It was one of those times when the radio host had to cut people off because the radio station did not want to be seen to be promoting the comments or thoughts of some of the callers. I am also aware that there were flyers and other things of similar effect which were spreading hate of the Mulsim community in an effort to deter the mosque going up.

There was a local Gold Coast politician on the radio station as a guest which actually brought up some of these other issues mentioned. The radio host stopped him and said that they understand that there are other issues here but we all know that the protest of the Australian public has nothing to do with these other issues. Although being a politician he did not want to comment on anything to 'edge' so he stuck to those other issues.

 

[Julia]

The quote from Pager was "Religion is pure evil". This is obviously untrue. People you meet every day may have religious beliefs, go to church on Sundays and never hurt anyone. Why should they or their beliefs be called "pure evil" ?

By all means denounce extremist religious nutcases, but making such a broad and ridiculous statement about religion in general is obviously bigoted, thus the criticism I made of that statement.

What Pager said in full was:

About time people woke up to the fact Religion is pure evil, Christian or Muslim between them they have killed more people and caused more suffering through the ages than just about anything else.

and was said in response to yet another vile beheading of, of all people, an aid worker.

I don't know what the actual statistics would be but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Pager's suggestion that religion has through the ages caused more suffering than just about anything else is pretty right.
And, although he doesn't seem to post much these days, I've known Pager for a long time and never ever seen any evidence of bigotry. Seems more to me like distress at what is happening, coupled with perhaps a fear of it ultimately extending as far as Australia.

If you yourself were not somewhat sympathetic to religion, then I doubt you'd have used such a term.
Should I, because I largely agree with Pager, also be labelled a bigot?

Hodgie, thank you for additional information.

 

[Pager]

There I go again, maybe I should think what im saying before I post!, I do realise Religion is very important to a lot of people and does both help and give people a meaning (for the lack of other words) in there lives and does help and provide support to millions

Maybe I should have written that Religion has been hijacked by the evil rather than saying it is in itself evil, but I do find myself questioning it and not just with what’s happening today but down through the ages, Wars and all kinds of atrocity’s have been committed and/or justified in the name of varies Religions, Christianity being one of the more blood thirsty.

And yes maybe my post was in anger, I just cannot understands how human beings can be so cruel and the cruellest of them all seem to be driven by and justify what they do with there Religion, yet what does this God do to stop it?.

 

[Value Collector]

anyone who has been to the USA would know there are keywords programmed into the noggins of the locals that are considered anti American and "atheist" is one of them..

And that's the discrimination she was trying to point out, and that's the reason it is important to draw attention to it.

The fact that people have all these negative thoughts about atheists is not good.

 

[SirRumpole]

Should I, because I largely agree with Pager, also be labelled a bigot?

Do you think religion is "pure evil" ?

Maybe I should have written that Religion has been hijacked by the evil rather than saying it is in itself evil,

I would accept that statement as more representative of the truth.

 

[Value Collector]

Do you think religion is "pure evil" ?



I would accept that statement as more representative of the truth.

Probably not pure evil, but a lot of the foundational beliefs of most religions are evil, So I would say that religions are evil. atleast by this definition below.

evil - profoundly immoral and wicked

We could get into the discussion of religious people vs religions themselves, if that's the conversation people want to have my position would be.

Religions are evil

People are mostly good, but can be convinced to be evil by religion.

I attended a church service recently, and was shocked at the immorality of the concepts behind the songs and the preaching.

 

[Tisme]

I don't know what the actual statistics would be but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Pager's suggestion that religion has through the ages caused more suffering than just about anything else is pretty right.
.

Make sure you include the irreligious Alec The Great, The Mongols, the Tartars, the Visigoths, etc and of course the tribe that gave us a lasting name the Vandals, the Nazis, the Stalinists, the Chinese reds, etc ... I think you'll find religion is a distant second to plain old empire builders.

 

[SirRumpole]

Probably not pure evil, but a lot of the foundational beliefs of most religions are evil, So I would say that religions are evil. atleast by this definition below.



We could get into the discussion of religious people vs religions themselves, if that's the conversation people want to have my position would be.

Religions are evil

So you think that a religion that teaches "love thy neighbor as you would yourself", is profoundly evil ?

I think that's pretty warped logic.

People are mostly good, but can be convinced to be evil by religion.

As they can by a lot of other things, drugs, patriotism, lust, greed and power.

I attended a church service recently, and was shocked at the immorality of the concepts behind the songs and the preaching.

That's a broad statement. Can you specify ?

 

[Tisme]

Do you think religion is "pure evil" ?



I would accept that statement as more representative of the truth.

Without people religion would not exist, therefore people are to blame for what they do in the name of their own made up excuse.

 

[Julia]

Do you think religion is "pure evil" ?

I think the world would be a much better place without it.
I'm OK with VC's definition below.

And Rumpole, seems to me from your past posts, you only believe Christians are OK, given your distaste for Muslims arriving on our shores.
Not sure how that would not also be classified as 'bigotry' if we must use that abrasive word?

Probably not pure evil, but a lot of the foundational beliefs of most religions are evil, So I would say that religions are evil. atleast by this definition below.

We could get into the discussion of religious people vs religions themselves, if that's the conversation people want to have my position would be.

Religions are evil

People are mostly good, but can be convinced to be evil by religion.

 

[noco]

Religion would be fine if there was just one moderate Bible and everyone followed it the way it was meant to teach a better way of life.

 

[Value Collector]

So you think that a religion that teaches "love thy neighbor as you would yourself", is profoundly evil ?

Ok, let's forget about the fact that picking that verse is cherry picking of the highest degree, because many of these people are willing to turn their backs on neighbours if they are gay or heavens forbid "atheist".

But let's focus on one of their foundational beliefs, human sacrifice and scapegoating. A foundational belief for Christianity is that Jesus was tortured and slain as a human sacrifice, to some how pardon mankind for its sins. There are several things that make this doctrine immoral and evil.

Firstly, human sacrifice for any reason, to me seems plain immoral, and if I had seen it taking place, I would have had to do my best to stop it, yet the religious folk revel in the idea of it. They even sang a song with this lyric.

In that old rugged cross, stained with blood so divine,
A wondrous beauty I see,
For ’twas on that old cross Jesus suffered and died,
To pardon and sanctify me

.

Now if we get past the idea of human sacrifice being immoral, the concept of scape goating still exists. The idea that some one else being killed 2000 years ago can free you of the responsibility of your crimes, is immoral, if you think you are forgiven and all is good simply by piling your crimes onto Jesus, I find that immoral. In my mind forgiveness can only come from the victim of your crimes.

But if we get past that, there is still the Christian doctrine that salvation doesn't come from your actions, but comes from believing in Jesus, and all you have to do is believe, eg a murderous rapist will get into heaven as long as he believes a story on faith, where as a non religious person, who is sceptical, but who has never harmed and lived life helping others will not make it to heaven, because its faith not actions that count, to me thats immoral.

There are plenty of other concepts that are immoral, this is just the tip of the ice berg, because as i said i was focusing on foundational beliefs.

 

[Value Collector]

Religion would be fine if there was just one moderate Bible and everyone followed it the way it was meant to teach a better way of life.

How do you determine how it was "meant" to be taught?

No doubt all the religious groups around the world agree with you, as long as your taking their version of the "moderate" book, and what they think its "meant" to be teaching.

Considering there is over 10,000 brands of Christian, not to mention the various sects of Jews and Muslims, all with different teachings of the god Yahweh / god of Abraham. How do you expect them to ever come to agreement on their mythology.

And when you add in all the other religions outside of the Yahweh myths, you have a big task ahead to try and come to agreement.

 

[SirRumpole]

And Rumpole, seems to me from your past posts, you only believe Christians are OK, given your distaste for Muslims arriving on our shores.
Not sure how that would not also be classified as 'bigotry' if we must use that abrasive word?

Peaceful Muslims are ok in their place, but if there are too many of them then then starting wanting their own laws which contradict what we already have and would not be acceptable to most people in this country whether they be Christians, atheists or anyone else. We have a good secular community so far and I don't want to see religious law, no matter whose it is.

As to the allegation of "bigotry" , if I said "all Muslims are evil", then I would be a bigot, just like anyone who says "religion is pure evil" is a bigot because they fail to consider the other side of the story.

 

[noco]

How do you determine how it was "meant" to be taught?

No doubt all the religious groups around the world agree with you, as long as your taking their version of the "moderate" book, and what they think its "meant" to be teaching.

Considering there is over 10,000 brands of Christian, not to mention the various sects of Jews and Muslims, all with different teachings of the god Yahweh / god of Abraham. How do you expect them to ever come to agreement on their mythology.

And when you add in all the other religions outside of the Yahweh myths, you have a big task ahead to try and come to agreement.

Yes VC, and that is where the problem lies.....and we wonder why we have so much dissension among the people in this great world.......Each one is trying to force their religion on others and if you don't accept their view, it can in some religions, result in death.

And what is the solution??????????.....I don't know and I am damn sure nobody else does either.......One thing I do know is they will finish destroying mankind most likely with nuclear devices a long time before "Climate change" takes place.

 

[Value Collector]

And what is the solution??????????......

I think a big part of the solution would be to treat all religious claims with scepticism, and be open to the idea that all these religious claims are perhaps equal glimpses of the untrue, because the can't all be right, but the could all be wrong.

The awful side affects come from people with the most faith, if they had just a little doubt in their mind, they probably wouldn't have the confidence to fly planes into buildings.

 

[noco]

I think a big part of the solution would be to treat all religious claims with scepticism, and be open to the idea that all these religious claims are perhaps equal glimpses of the untrue, because the can't all be right, but the could all be wrong.

The awful side affects come from people with the most faith, if they had just a little doubt in their mind, they probably wouldn't have the confidence to fly planes into buildings.

The problem with some religions is the fact that many people are brainwashed and have had the fear of God instilled them by threats if they don't follow.

 

[Value Collector]

The problem with some religions is the fact that many people are brainwashed and have had the fear of God instilled them by threats if they don't follow.

Yes I quite agree, and it can be almost impossible for a lot of people to shake off these fears even in adult hood.

So I guess that's another evil side of religion, the practice of indoctrination of children. I think there is a fine line where teaching children about the culture of their family and religious beliefs can turn into indoctrination that becomes child abuse.

 

[SirRumpole]

So I guess that's another evil side of religion, the practice of indoctrination of children. I think there is a fine line where teaching children about the culture of their family and religious beliefs can turn into indoctrination that becomes child abuse.

So I guess that's another evil side of boganism, the practice of indoctrination of children. I think there is a fine line where teaching children about the culture of their family and boganistic beliefs can turn into indoctrination that becomes child abuse.

Children tend to turn out like their parents, whether religious or otherwise.