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Another very insightful article by Sam Harris

Sleepwalking Toward Armageddon

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/sleepwalking-toward-armageddon

This paragraph is so true and reflected in this thread.....

Our humanities and social science departments are filled with scholars and pseudo-scholars deemed to be experts in terrorism, religion, Islamic jurisprudence, anthropology, political science, and other diverse fields, who claim that where Muslim intolerance and violence are concerned, nothing is ever what it seems. Above all, these experts claim that one can’t take Islamists and jihadists at their word: Their incessant declarations about God, paradise, martyrdom, and the evils of apostasy are nothing more than a mask concealing their real motivations. What are their real motivations? Insert here the most abject hopes and projections of secular liberalism: How would you feel if Western imperialists and their mapmakers had divided your lands, stolen your oil, and humiliated your proud culture? Devout Muslims merely want what everyone wants””political and economic security, a piece of land to call home, good schools for their children, a little leisure to enjoy the company of friends. Unfortunately, most of my fellow liberals appear to believe this. In fact, to not accept this obscurantism as a deep insight into human nature and immediately avert one’s eyes from the teachings of Islam is considered a form of bigotry.
 
I’m not even sure why Duckman is making a comparison between sexual abuse in the Catholic church vs sexual abuse in the military forces. His original statement suggested that people, not religion, were guilty of double standards. Duckman would say I’m looking at it in too much of a ‘black and white’ way, but either there’s double standards in religion, or there isn’t, regardless of what's occurring in any other organisation. You’d have to be living in dream land to claim there’s no double standards in religion, particularly in the Catholic religion.
 
lindsayf said:
to those seeking to equate clergy abuse with abuse by other parties;

Of course any sexual, emotional, psychological, physical abuse (you cant have the first without the next 2 and probably the third) that occurs between one powerful figure and one vulnerable figure is abhorrent and the results devastating.
But this ignores the additional layers of abuse and impact that occur when clergy is the perpetrator and the church engaged in the covering up.
The things that set the clergy abuse apart is the role they have in society. They are by virtue ( sad to use that word here) of thier (clerical) role in community and society, seen to be moral and spiritual guides, supporters of the vulnerable and the downtrodden and trustworthy beyond question. In this capacity they are able to easily groom and abuse in a way that betrays not only the child, but the family and the community at large. If the child speaks out they will ( at least historically) be met with denials at least ( and threat and intimidation as followups from the abuser) because it is too outrageous to be true and too difficult to face. As the truth comes out then the family members that were unable to protect/did not believe their children are faced with the horror and guilt of the disgusting betrayal that has occurred almost under their noses.

The part religion plays here is that it wrongly and effectively provided the individual with a cloak of respectability - and this enables the abuse in a way that it could not have otherwise. Another way that religion enables this is that due to a distorted moral framework courtesy of the silly text book they use, the abuse has been able to rationalised, justified and repented for-so now they can carry on. Another part ( and I know this is controversial to some) is the stupid culture of sexual repression such as in the catholic clerical system. There is little hope that an individual will develop healthily emotionally, psychologically or sexually as a cleric within this system. I have no evidence to suggest causation here (and there are no doubt other factors at play) but I suggest there is a correlation between the incidence of child abuse and the culture of sexual repression that young clerics must exist in with unlimited access to, and power over, the flock.
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Probably the best post I've ever read on this subject. Thank you, lindsay, for so appropriately saying everything I was struggling to express.
 
Just that famous Christian charity and love on display yet again.

http://www.elespectador.com/noticias/bogota/pruebas-de-sergio-articulo-515085

The mother of a 16-year-old gay Colombian boy who committed suicide last month has come forward with shocking allegations that officials at her son’s Catholic school had bullied him to death.

According to El Espectador, Sergio Urrego had endured relentless bullying and harassment from administrators at Gimnasio Castillo Campestre, a Catholic high school in Bogota, after they confiscated his phone and discovered a photo of him kissing his boyfriend on it.

School officials reportedly blocked Urrego’s requests for transfer and forced him to visit a school psychologist. After weeks of torture, multiple class suspensions and accusations of being an “anarchist,” an “atheist” and a “homosexual,” Urrego jumped from the roof of a shopping center in Bogota.

Shortly before he took his own life, Urrego posted the lyrics to Pink Floyd’s “Goodbye Cruel World” on his Facebook wall:
 
This is so silly. People in every group do horrendous and stupid things. Ironic thing is that those Christians acting in that way are acting the opposite of what the profess to believe. It's not Christianity's fault it's the fault of the individual or the church leader. Christianity itself actually DISAGREES with their actions.

Unfortunately the double standards are prevalent. Christian bashing is fine but disagreeing with homosexuality or pointing out idiots from other groups is seen as intolerant.
 
pavilion103 said:
This is so silly. People in every group do horrendous and stupid things. Ironic thing is that those Christians acting in that way are acting the opposite of what the profess to believe. It's not Christianity's fault it's the fault of the individual or the church leader. Christianity itself actually DISAGREES with their actions.

Unfortunately the double standards are prevalent. Christian bashing is fine but disagreeing with homosexuality or pointing out idiots from other groups is seen as intolerant.
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It's the double standards of those who call themselves Christians then act in many ways very unchristian like.

I'd be just as abhorred if the poor boy I posted about had been bullied by officials in a Government school.
 
sydboy007 said:
It's the double standards of those who call themselves Christians then act in many ways very unchristian like. I'd be just as abhorred if the poor boy I posted about had been bullied by officials in a Government school.
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Of course those people are hypocrites. Of course. But I'm saying it's the same with every single group. And those people within each group are a poor reflection on themselves now the group that they belong to (unless the fundamental teachings of that group condone the action).

A shame everyone is always just pointing out the Christian ones and believing that because those people call themselves Christians that they reflect the actual Christian principles. But that is the media for you. They want to sell papers and advertising.

Every group has people with double standards in it. If there are any that don't let me know and I'll join!
 
pavilion103 said:
Of course those people are hypocrites. Of course. But I'm saying it's the same with every single group. And those people within each group are a poor reflection on themselves now the group that they belong to (unless the fundamental teachings of that group condone the action).

A shame everyone is always just pointing out the Christian ones and believing that because those people call themselves Christians that they reflect the actual Christian principles. But that is the media for you. They want to sell papers and advertising.

Every group has people with double standards in it. If there are any that don't let me know and I'll join!
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Fair enough. there's bad apples in every barrel eh.

But what happens when the barrel actively defends the bad apples. Say it helps to move that bad apple or two to another barrel till it causes trouble then another barrel. Would that kind of action be considered that the actions of the bad apples are condoned?

Do you believe the school officials were right in what they did to a 16 year old boy? If not, should they be allowed to continue in their roles? What happens if they do the same thing again? How many times can someone do bad things in the name of an organisation / religion / group without being expelled before we just have to accept that the bad behaviour is tolerated and sometimes protected from censure by the group?

I'd not have an issue with things so much if those undertaking actions against Jesus / Mohammed were forced out, but quite often they're protected or lauded as standing up for what's right.
 
The Muslim community want to build a mosque at Currumbin on the Gold Coast and the locals are up in arms protesting and I don't blame them.

I was in Latoka Fiji back in 1993 and there was a mosque there and the Muslims would start wailing out over loud speakers at 5 am in the morning and this what will happen at Currumbin.

The Muslim community are disgusted at the protest by the locals but you don't hear them expressing their disgust at the beheadings in the Islamic state......you do not hear the Muslims in Australia say we will go to the Middle East and try to stop the radicals...but you do hear of the 150 or so Muslim Australians traveling to help the cause of the IS..

Gawd I hate to think what this country will be like in another 30 years!!!!



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...test-hate-attack/story-fnihsrf2-1227058301127
 
noco said:
The Muslim community want to build a mosque at Currumbin on the Gold Coast and the locals are up in arms protesting and I don't blame them.

I was in Latoka Fiji back in 1993 and there was a mosque there and the Muslims would start wailing out over loud speakers at 5 am in the morning and this what will happen at Currumbin.

The Muslim community are disgusted at the protest by the locals but you don't hear them expressing their disgust at the beheadings in the Islamic state......you do not hear the Muslims in Australia say we will go to the Middle East and try to stop the radicals...but you do hear of the 150 or so Muslim Australians traveling to help the cause of the IS..

Gawd I hate to think what this country will be like in another 30 years!!!!



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...test-hate-attack/story-fnihsrf2-1227058301127
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I believe that the proposal was for an industrial area so the noise probably isn't the number 1 issue here. People shouldn't be getting awoken from their homes at least.

They could have chosen better timing for something like this in light of what is going on overseas right now. I live really close to Currumbin and I think it makes us look quite intolerant. I'm not a fan of religion at all and have never been to church of any kind but you won't see so much protest for a place of worship for any other religion to be setup here.

I personally don't want the mosque to go up in Currumbin because of the fact that it's a waste of the limited industrial space we have here on the Gold Coast we require for expansion into the future but that's not the issue we are hearing about in the media.

In General I think the Australian public is fairly racist so I don't think that the Muslim community wants to speak up on most issues. One of My aunty's husband has copped race motivated abuse in recent times because of what is going on overseas (he also received abuse from random Australians around the time of September 11 back in 2001). The stupid thing is he isn't even a muslim, he is just of Turkish decent and has lived in Australia for the last 25 years and is a police officer here. I think that people that are of Middle Eastern appearance just want to keep their heads down right now. The prevailing public opinion of protesting the mosque shows how Australian's in general view the Muslim community right now and how we put them in the same boat as the militants overseas beheading people.

There is supposed to be over a billion Muslims worldwide, a very small proportion are what we see in the media. Just because a community of people are not actively showing their disgust for something does not mean they support it. I don't actually know any Muslim's personally but I do not have any judgments toward their community in Australia as a whole.
 
Hodgie said:
There is supposed to be over a billion Muslims worldwide, a very small proportion are what we see in the media. Just because a community of people are not actively showing their disgust for something does not mean they support it. I don't actually know any Muslim's personally but I do not have any judgments toward their community in Australia as a whole.
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THEY are slaves who fear to speak
For the fallen and the weak;
They are slaves who will not choose
Hatred, scoffing, and abuse,
Rather than in silence shrink
From the truth they needs must think;
They are slaves who dare not be
In the right with two or three.

A Stanza on Freedom By James Russell Lowell

Definitely not easy to do, but it is the only way forward if we are to push back on those who use fear and hate to force their own agendas on the rest of us.
 
This is a great video that shows the discrimination some groups in society have towards atheists, But all shows that atheists are some of the most giving people.

 
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Hodgie said:
I believe that the proposal was for an industrial area so the noise probably isn't the number 1 issue here. People shouldn't be getting awoken from their homes at least.

They could have chosen better timing for something like this in light of what is going on overseas right now. I live really close to Currumbin and I think it makes us look quite intolerant. I'm not a fan of religion at all and have never been to church of any kind but you won't see so much protest for a place of worship for any other religion to be setup here.

I personally don't want the mosque to go up in Currumbin because of the fact that it's a waste of the limited industrial space we have here on the Gold Coast we require for expansion into the future but that's not the issue we are hearing about in the media.

In General I think the Australian public is fairly racist so I don't think that the Muslim community wants to speak up on most issues. One of My aunty's husband has copped race motivated abuse in recent times because of what is going on overseas (he also received abuse from random Australians around the time of September 11 back in 2001). The stupid thing is he isn't even a muslim, he is just of Turkish decent and has lived in Australia for the last 25 years and is a police officer here. I think that people that are of Middle Eastern appearance just want to keep their heads down right now. The prevailing public opinion of protesting the mosque shows how Australian's in general view the Muslim community right now and how we put them in the same boat as the militants overseas beheading people.

There is supposed to be over a billion Muslims worldwide, a very small proportion are what we see in the media. Just because a community of people are not actively showing their disgust for something does not mean they support it. I don't actually know any Muslim's personally but I do not have any judgments toward their community in Australia as a whole.
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I know the area well as I worked for the foundry up Currumbin Creek and there are lots of houses across the road from that industrial site.....I am damn sure I would not wish to be woken up every morning at 5 am with loud speakers that one would be able to hear over a 3 km radius....they are in Australia now and they should live the Australian way of life or go back to where they come from.

If your next door neighbor started mowing his lawn at 5 am in the morning would you be happy?......I think not......you would be the first one to run to the police or the council to lay a complaint.
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noco said:
I know the area well as I worked for the foundry up Currumbin Creek and there are lots of houses across the road from that industrial site.....I am damn sure I would not wish to be woken up every morning at 5 am with loud speakers that one would be able to hear over a 3 km radius....they are in Australia now and they should live the Australian way of life or go back to where they come from.

If your next door neighbor started mowing his lawn at 5 am in the morning would you be happy?......I think not......you would be the first one to run to the police or the council to lay a complaint.
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Fair enough, I wasn't sure of the exact location I just heard it was an industrial area.

That may be a perfectly valid point about the noise but I think that a lot of the protest was due to the fact that the Australians on the Gold Coast did not want any Muslims around rather than a noise consideration. The link you provided earlier spoke of comments such as “Terrorists born in Australia are not Australians – they are Muslims” and “Muslims are not welcome in Australia, go back to where you came from”.

I think it shows a lot of the views of the average Australian, it's not a good look for us.

P.S. I used to live on Currimbin Creek Road, small world eh.
 
Value Collector said:
This is a great video that shows the discrimination some groups in society have towards atheists, But all shows that atheists are some of the most giving people.

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I call BS on that:- anyone who has been to the USA would know there are keywords programmed into the noggins of the locals that are considered anti American and "atheist" is one of them. That girl knew the outcome before it began and was not really surprised at all. She should have pasted "Islamic" on the board to get a real reaction from 300+million gun happy residents.:D
 
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About time people woke up to the fact Religion is pure evil,
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SirRumpole said:
No bigotry there eh ?
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Hodgie said:
I guess the bigotry was always there, just unannounced at that stage.
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Is it bigotry - particularly when Pager's remark was made in the context of the depraved behaviour of ISIS - to so denounce religion? It's a particularly unpleasant and harsh word imo and doesn't seem any more required here than, for example, following the many similar sentiments from FX Trader, VC, and myself for that matter.

Just wondering why suddenly it's OK to label someone a bigot because they despise what is done in the name of religion?

Hodgie said:
Fair enough, I wasn't sure of the exact location I just heard it was an industrial area.
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Last week, ABC Radio Evenings had an interview with the local councillor about this. I didn't take too much notice because it's a long way from me, but she listed many concerns, very much including noise for surrounding residents, can't remember most of the others now, but just a dislike of Muslims seemed not to feature much.
Doesn't mean it isn't there, however. Most people are too conscious of the ever present political correctness police to make any such criticism.
 
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