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Again you judge ALL the ISIS people on the words of a few. If you want to make a judgement based on such a tiny sample size, that's up to you.
Have you ever heard the word "mercenary" at all ?
It's the key and most important motive, anything else is peripheral and of much less significance and you simply don't seem to comprehend this. I choose to believe what they say about their own motives while you insist these religious fanatics must have more complex motivations, they don't.
Chose to imagine and concoct a more complex explanation if you wish but don't arrogantly assume for a moment that you are better informed than I am about the motivations of fundamentalist Islamists. I chose to believe them and you don't, let's leave it at that.
A couple of decades ago I'd have agreed with you but not now. We need to simply disagree here.Generally, you will find it is still quite normal for society to give respect to people who are religious. for example its not unusual to hear comments when people are describing people such as, "Oh she's a good person, she goes to church" or "yeah, they are a good church going family".
So how is your average person going to discern those good traits? Surely via a measure of intelligence, and more importantly, education. There is no reason these days for any so called average person to unthinkingly believe that because someone goes to church they are a good person. All the evidence contradicts such a supposition.It's not about intelligence, It's about what the average person thinks are good traits.
Again, I simply disagree. Most people I've ever met across many more years than you've yet chalked up, hold religion in no particular respect at all. Events over the past few years have only exacerbated this lack of respect, not to mention outright condemnation.Most people are brought up to respect religion,
There is a widely recognised hypothesis around disaffected, ill educated young people, feeling out of place, alienated from their environment, which produces non-aligned sense of hatred, something that is easily nurtured by fire breathing preachers into a focus-driven purpose such as jihad.Well rumpole isn't even religious according to him, but he is here saying that these murderous religious fanatics can't really be murdering for their religious beliefs, it must be something else.
Why not just accept that you have one strong belief and others have somewhat alternative beliefs?It's the key and most important motive, anything else is peripheral and of much less significance and you simply don't seem to comprehend this. I choose to believe what they say about their own motives while you insist these religious fanatics must have more complex motivations, they don't.
Chose to imagine and concoct a more complex explanation if you wish but don't arrogantly assume for a moment that you are better informed than I am about the motivations of fundamentalist Islamists.
A good example is the Australian whose son proudly held up the severed head. The father is a diagnosed schizophrenic.Unless you actually get into the mind of the ISIS people you can't tell what motivates them. You conceded some time ago that some of them could be psychopathic. That is a mental illness and they would kill for any reason, or even no reason at all.
Unless you actually get into the mind of the ISIS people you can't tell what motivates them. You conceded some time ago that some of them could be psychopathic. That is a mental illness and they would kill for any reason, or even no reason at all.
You also said that there is a dislike for people on "the other side". Those GI's that you pointed out cheering at the drone strikes are all religious are they ? As an ex soldier and not a religious person, what would you have killed for ? Not religion obviously, so there must be "something else".
Maybe some ISIS people joined because "they wanted to be part of something big, and to make a contribution". Just like some others who join militaries.
So I have provided several reasons why there are wars going on that provide motivations not dependent on religion.
And please don't misrepresent what I say, it does you no credit.
You asked what I would kill for, now if i told you, would you believe me, or just say, no no, it must be something else.
I don't have a strong belief about the motivations of religious extremists; I just accept what they say about their own motivations for their actions. If an apologist for religion asserts that other motivations are in play of equal importance to religious convictions then where is the evidence for this "belief"? The apologist claims the primary motivation can't be just religion it can also be mercenaries beheading people for money and hoards of mentally ill people with Kalashnikovs dressed in black - how absurd. It is arrogance to presume to know better than the perpetrators themselves what their motivations are and produce no evidence to support such a view.Why not just accept that you have one strong belief and others have somewhat alternative beliefs? No real need to suggest arrogance on the part of someone who just takes a different slant, surely
Whatever the background of an ISIS fighter, religion unites them around a common cause and empowers them with the moral justification to perform acts of vicious violence and murder with the promise of paradise through martyrdom. Without a religious foundation, their actions would be that of fractious groupings of rebels waring with each other for territorial power.There is a widely recognised hypothesis around disaffected, ill educated young people, feeling out of place, alienated from their environment, which produces non-aligned sense of hatred, something that is easily nurtured by fire breathing preachers into a focus-driven purpose such as jihad.
Rumpole raised that many people join the military for a similar reason, ie the sense of belonging to some coherent whole. Same phenomenon applies in bikie gangs. Not necessarily only religion at all.
It is arrogance to presume to know better than the perpetrators themselves what their motivations are and produce no evidence to support such a view.
Indeed I don't claim to know all the motivations of every ISIS fighter, only the publically stated motivations of the movement and individual supporters. Their actions confirm their intentions and stated motives. You continue to assert that other motives are of equal significance to religion in this conflict without evidence and have deluded yourself into thinking you have a strong argument in the process.It is arrogance to believe that you know the motivations of EVERY person fighting in that conflict. Religion is obviously a motive for some, but you can't say it is for all.
What a silly, emotive statement. Your thinking is wrong, I regard religion for what it is - myth. People taking myth to seriously and acting accordingly on the dictates of religious dogma is a serious problem for human society, the consequences of which are manifest daily around the globe. You would have to be intellectually deficient, unobservant or indoctrinated not to acknowledge this.I think that you are just completely anti religion and will blame religion solely for every ill in the world.
Only the contrary I do acknowledge other factors are in play but the powerful unifying factor is religion. That you are in denial about this is quite clear.You don't acknowledge that a lust for power, psychopathy, hatred of other tribes, desire for land and resources or money play any part at all.
The refuge of a tireless apologist for religion and the crimes committed in its name, call me a bigot because I point out that religion, in all its mutually intolerant forms, is the core unifying force for a movement like ISIS. Keep your head buried the sand if you wish and in doing so stay far away from Iraq and Syria where you can be killed for not believing in the right version of Islam and for no other reason.Well, keep your bigoted opinions, but wars happen for factors other than religion and if you can't see that, then that is your problem.
Keep your head buried the sand if you wish and in doing so stay far away from Iraq and Syria where you can be killed for not believing in the right version of Islam and for no other reason.
Only the contrary I do acknowledge other factors are in play but the powerful unifying factor is religion. That you are in denial about this is quite clear.
Atheist US Air Force sergeant to take military to court over requirement to take oath with 'so help me God'
I'm with the sergeant on this, if you don't believe in God, your oath is worthless
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-10/atheist-must-swear-to-god-or-leave-us-air-force/5732994
Mercenaries fight in a lot of wars. Do they have to have a religious belief to do that ?
.
That is an important point. When it comes down to variants of the same religion fighting each other this indicates that there is something else other than the religion being the primary motivating cause. .
Have I ever said that religion is the only reason people fight in wars?
No, I haven't.
Well rumpole isn't even religious according to him, but he is here saying that these murderous religious fanatics can't really be murdering for their religious beliefs, it must be something else.
Oh, ok then, so you just delight in making ad hominen attacks like this:
Well rumpole isn't even religious according to him, but he is here saying that these murderous religious fanatics can't really be murdering for their religious beliefs, it must be something else.
Have I ever said that religion is the only reason people fight in wars?
...It then comes down to tribalism, or a dislike for other points of view, whatever they are. ...
Nice summary pixel, I think you are spot on there.
Religion may have been needed once to keep things in order, but now that we have ordered systems of government and law enforcement (mostly), religion's value to society is diminishing. There is little we can do constitutionally to outlaw it, we can just hope it fades out in time.
Tribalism is the basic root of all religious beliefs:
Humans are social animals because it was essential for the survival of the extended family/ clan/ tribe - call it what you like - that each individual would defend the tribal hunting grounds and territory.
When the apes grew brains and began to reason some basics, the smarter group members may well have recognised that and devised some ruses to keep the dimmer ones in line. What could be closer at hand than inventing ghosts and superior beings that demanded obedience and became grumpy (with thunder and lightning as reinforcement) when teenage dumbo cast an eye where he shouldn't. Keeping the family members in line by such basic mental persuasion made it far easier to maintain the Patriarch's position without having to resort to fights every time a horny youngster with more hormones than brains craved a piece of the Chief's harem. He was told how honourable it was to look at them from afar, defend them by defending the King, and wait his turn; if he behaved himself and stayed devoted to God, King, and Tribe, then his time would come in Paradise/ Eden/ Valhalla to get his full contingent of houris, maidens, wenches to feast on and with to his lusty desires.
The problem starts when these fanciful creations are perpetuated in folklore; and once fairytales are injected into every kid's brain, and parents are admonished to bring their offspring up "in the one and only true faith", it becomes "the one and only truth" for the overwhelming majority. The few independent thinkers will quickly find out that it's safer to pay lip service and rub the customary mud into their own navels, than to try and persuade their dimmer neighbours of a different truth.
So, what started out as a plot to support one tribal chief with the bigger dung heap over any neighbouring tribe's ambition to increase theirs, has become ingrained in tribal members' minds to the extent we see today: Priests, Rabbis, Muftis, ... each have reasons of their own to maintain the status quo. Sure beats working in the mud or fighting for one's living. Much easier to keep teaching "the one and only true faith" to the dimmer sections of the tribe; and if you can prevent budding intellect from growing and thinking, you've got it even easier.
Is there really a difference between "No education for girls" and "No women priests"?
Keep 'em dumb and on their backs. Our tribe must outbreed all others. Our dung heap is the biggest.
PS: Wars aren't necessarily fought over religion. I believe the main reason for wars is tribal greed: The dung heap needs to be increased at all cost. And the more an ever-increasing dung heap benefits the key members of the ruling class/ family/ hangers-on, the more likely it will be supported by the religious leaders. IMHO it's only at that stage that religious doctrine is bent into shape to be used to turn younger family members into killing machines and cannon fodder.
I'd say that's a pretty good summary, Pixel.I'm not quite that optimistic, Sir R.
Remember that, by definition, half of any country's population has an IQ that's average or less
Also, the US system of government would have to be considered as "ordered", yet you still have the Bible Belt, Salt Lake City, and the Religions of Wall Street and Las Vegas dominating hearts and minds.
Not to mention the Middle East, vast parts of Africa and Asia, and most of South America, where people are kept poor and persuaded to keep breeding, so they can't afford to study or even think. Instead, they're told it's all God's/ Allah's will that they submit to their lot, pay homage and support to their religious leaders, and wait for their time in Paradise, which in reality will be six foot under, if that deep.
My recent comments have been in relation to you claiming that religion is not the main cause for the current ISIS conflict, even though the people involved are claiming it is, they are killing based on religion, and they call them selves the "Islamic" state.
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