Religion IS crazy!

[FxTrader]

There are such things as radical atheists who want to destroy religious freedom.

These radical atheists are a figment of your imagination, created to attack a false perception of what atheism and atheists stand for.

Lots of religions have dirty laundry which needs to be washed, but a lot of good people are religious and shouldn't be condemned en masse.

You grossly understate and underestimate the impact of religion on human society with your "dirty laundry" metaphor. The poisonous implications of believing things strongly for bad reasons on bad evidence should be clear to any objective, rational person.

You erect yet another straw man to attack, I don't condemn anyone en masse and never have. I do attack religion and the organizations which perpetuate religious mythology for good reason.

The usual tactic of someone who knows he has lost an argument.

What a silly, egotistical statement. I never entered into your off topic argument on IVF and surrogacy nor did I ever intend to.

I've said all I've wanted to say on IVF/surrogacy...

At last and none to soon!

Others have made comments on the ivf or surrogacy issue, but you appear to have singled me out because I previously made comments supporting some aspects of religion which differ from your own. I see that as prejudicial harassment.

LOL, how ridiculous. I have merely stated the obvious that your off topic diversion is best expressed elsewhere. Play the victim if you wish but it's undignified posturing on your part and totally unjustified.

 

[SirRumpole]

These radical atheists are a figment of your imagination, created to attack a false perception of what atheism and atheists stand for.

Richard Dawkins made a statement that people who have a religious belief are "mentally ill".

That sounds pretty radical to me.

Did you vote for Tony Abbott by any chance ? He's a confirmed Catholic, as is Malcolm Turnbull.

Is this country being run by madmen ?

What a silly, egotistical statement. I never entered into your off topic argument on IVF and surrogacy nor did I ever intend to.

You simply sought to deflect and disparage an argument with silly accusations and waffle about "sky gods".

 

[Value Collector]

There are such things as radical atheists who want to destroy religious freedom.

No, most atheists are involved in protecting religious freedoms, however the average religious person doesn't respect religious freedom or understand what it means, So when they see an atheist trying to protect religious freedom by stopping the religious groups forcing religion onto others and the government, they think we are taking their rights away, when in fact they never had the right to force religion onto others.

Society has the right to not have other religions forced on them, and it also has the right to have no religion, that is what religious freedom means. So if I say "No, you can't inject your religion into a public school" I am not taking away religious rights, I am defending them.

It should be easy to understand, But the religious groups don't seem to understand that religious freedom means no religious group gets special treatment, and denying them special treatment is not taking away their rights.

eg. you have the right to have a stick, but you don't have the right to beat people with it, me stopping people hitting others with sticks itn't taking away your stick rights, its protecting others rights to not be beaten.

 

[SirRumpole]

No, most atheists are involved in protecting religious freedoms, however the average religious person doesn't respect religious freedom or understand what it means,...

I don't disagree with any of that, I was simply pointing out that there are extreme atheists like Dawkins who make outrageous statements about religious people.

I also pointed out previously that many atheists send their children to religious schools, so perhaps religion has something going for it.

 

[Value Collector]

I don't disagree with any of that, I was simply pointing out that there are extreme atheists like Dawkins who make outrageous statements about religious people.

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I don't see Dawkins as being that extreme, If your going to point to Dawkins giving lectures and writing books as the atheist extreme, simply look at ISIS. I would feel comfortable having a chat to dawkins, the ISIS people, not so much

I also pointed out previously that many atheists send their children to religious schools, so perhaps religion has something going for it

And the religious side of things is mostly not the big attraction, status, facilities etc all play a part.

And as I have said, religion tends to have a level of unearned respect in our society, So even if a person is a non believer, they may be under the popular illusion that exposure to religion makes you a better person. Just because they are an atheist doesn't mean they have done a lot of thinking on the subject, or care much about it.

 

[SirRumpole]

I would feel comfortable having a chat to dawkins, the ISIS people, not so much

Quite so, but I wouldn't be talking to Dawkins about religion, he's far too intolerant.



I also question whether the real motivation behind ISIS is religion or simply power, megalomania and tribalism. Religion may be an excuse, but I have a feeling that such conflicts would develop simply because people are different and develop loyalties towards who they see as "their own kind", whether this be religious factions or simply the area that they originate from.

 

[FxTrader]

Richard Dawkins made a statement that people who have a religious belief are "mentally ill". That sounds pretty radical to me.

Only if you refuse to acknowledge and/or deny the disastrous impact of religion on human society and progress over the ages. You carelessly misuse the "radical" tag in conjunction with atheism as if there is some kind of equivalence between those outspoken about the many fallacies of religion and religious belief and those violently attacking and oppressing unbelievers. Doing so suggests a bias toward religious belief and a misunderstanding of the goals and methods of someone like Dawkins.

Dawkins challenges intellectual acceptance of religious belief in a way that is confronting no doubt. Labelling him a radical atheist is dishonest and absurd.

Did you vote for Tony Abbott by any chance ? He's a confirmed Catholic, as is Malcolm Turnbull. Is this country being run by madmen ?

LOL, off topic but the actions of the current government do suggest more than just poor judgement on a number of issues.

You simply sought to deflect and disparage an argument with silly accusations and waffle about "sky gods".

Nope, just tried to bring the discussion back on topic. I made no "accusations" and mention of sky gods is definitely on topic.

 

[Value Collector]

I also question whether the real motivation behind ISIS is religion or simply power, megalomania and tribalism. Religion may be an excuse, but I have a feeling that such conflicts would develop simply because people are different and develop loyalties towards who they see as "their own kind", whether this be religious factions or simply the area that they originate from.

That's the other thing, religion just doesn't get unearned respect, it constantly gets excuses made for it.

 

[SirRumpole]

That's the other thing, religion just doesn't get unearned respect, it constantly gets excuses made for it.

And so do tyrants ("Hitler was a Catholic")

So what religious forces are at work in the Ukraine ?

 

[Julia]

I also pointed out previously that many atheists send their children to religious schools, so perhaps religion has something going for it.

Usually such a choice isn't driven by the religious aspect nearly as much as the so called religious school generally providing better behavioural standards than state schools and the likelihood that your kids are going to be associating with other kids raised with similar values to your own. Most of the religious schools are much less expensive than the non-church-aligned private schools. So it's a choice somewhere between the state offering and the top of the line private school.

And as I have said, religion tends to have a level of unearned respect in our society,

Once, perhaps. I don't think much at all now, especially after the exposure of all the abuse and its cover-up.

So even if a person is a non believer, they may be under the popular illusion that exposure to religion makes you a better person.

Again, I think most people are more intelligent than to so assume.

That's the other thing, religion just doesn't get unearned respect, it constantly gets excuses made for it.

Yes, so true. But only the rusted on disciples will accept those excuses.

 

[SirRumpole]

Usually such a choice isn't driven by the religious aspect nearly as much as the so called religious school generally providing better behavioural standards than state schools and the likelihood that your kids are going to be associating with other kids raised with similar values to your own.

Yes, that is disappointing isn't it ?

I see no reason why State schools can't provide the same level of standards. Private schools can of course throw kids out but I don't see why disruptive kids can't be thrown out of State schools until such time that they can prove they are going to behave. It's then up to the parents to look after them until the child's standards improve.

Anyway, I can't discus that subject here, the "off topic" police will be after me.

 

[Value Collector]

So what religious forces are at work in the Ukraine ?

I haven't said any are, Not all wars are religious based, But where there is a religious divide, they don't tend to be resolved as quickly as the conflicts that are non religious.

 

[Value Collector]

Once, perhaps. I don't think much at all now, especially after the exposure of all the abuse and its cover-up.

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Generally, you will find it is still quite normal for society to give respect to people who are religious. for example its not unusual to hear comments when people are describing people such as, "Oh she's a good person, she goes to church" or "yeah, they are a good church going family".

This is what I mean by unearned respect, It gives the impression that a person with all the same attributes, but that doesn't go to church, must not be quite as good, And people that make those comments seem to give extra credit to people that are religious.

Again, I think most people are more intelligent than to so assume.

It's not about intelligence, It's about what the average person thinks are good traits. Most people are brought up to respect religion, even if you don't believe it yourself, your not supposed to challenge a person on their ideas because that would be rude, however its fine for them to spout their ideology without the risk of being called rude.

Yes, so true. But only the rusted on disciples will accept those excuses

Well rumpole isn't even religious according to him, but he is here saying that these murderous religious fanatics can't really be murdering for their religious beliefs, it must be something else.

 

[Value Collector]

Here is a good documentary of faith schools, if you want to hear some parents explain why they make their choices, and also explains many of the dangers of faith schools.

 

[SirRumpole]

Well rumpole isn't even religious according to him, but he is here saying that these murderous religious fanatics can't really be murdering for their religious beliefs, it must be something else.

Unless you actually get into the mind of the ISIS people you can't tell what motivates them. You conceded some time ago that some of them could be psychopathic. That is a mental illness and they would kill for any reason, or even no reason at all.

You also said that there is a dislike for people on "the other side". Those GI's that you pointed out cheering at the drone strikes are all religious are they ? As an ex soldier and not a religious person, what would you have killed for ? Not religion obviously, so there must be "something else".

Maybe some ISIS people joined because "they wanted to be part of something big, and to make a contribution". Just like some others who join militaries.

So I have provided several reasons why there are wars going on that provide motivations not dependent on religion.

And please don't misrepresent what I say, it does you no credit.

 

[FxTrader]

Unless you actually get into the mind of the ISIS people you can't tell what motivates them. You conceded some time ago that some of them could be psychopathic. That is a mental illness and they would kill for any reason, or even no reason at all.

One does not have to try and get into the mind of an ISIS follower, why not just believe what say about their own motives. They are motivated by religious fervor and dictates to kill infidels and establish an Islamic Caliphate, the fundamentalist view of the obligations of a true Muslim. The "mental illness" in this case is taking the claims in their magic book to seriously and literally. Religion is the root of the problem, the psychopathy of their actions is best explained by their unquestioning devotion to Islamism and fundamentalist Koranic mythology.

 

[SirRumpole]

One does not have to try and get into the mind of an ISIS follower, why not just believe what say about their own motives. They are motivated by religious fervor and dictates to kill infidels and establish an Islamic Caliphate, the fundamentalist view of the obligations of a true Muslim. The "mental illness" in this case is taking the claims in their magic book to seriously and literally. Religion is the root of the problem, the psychopathy of their actions is best explained by their unquestioning devotion to Islamism and fundamentalist Koranic mythology.

That's a simplistic assessment.

Certainly some of them are grade 1 religious lunatics, we don't know what proportion of them are. There is more than one motivation for wanting to fight. Thousands of Australians signed up for the petty conflict called the Boer war. What the hell for ? Adventure and excitement probably, I doubt if religion was uppermost in their minds.

 

[FxTrader]

That's a simplistic assessment.

That's their assessment of their own motives; you just refuse to believe them and instead try to overlay your own view that there must be other motives. ISIS followers are largely religious simpletons so I don't expect more complexity in their motivations and they certainly don't suggest there is anything more to consider.

Certainly some of them are grade 1 religious lunatics, we don't know what proportion of them are. There is more than one motivation for wanting to fight.

They declare their motives for fighting quite openly and at the root of it is religion.

 

[SirRumpole]

That's their assessment of their own motives; you just refuse to believe them and instead try to overlay your own view that there must be other motives. ISIS followers are largely religious simpletons so I don't expect more complexity in their motivations and they certainly don't suggest there is anything more to consider.


They declare their motives for fighting quite openly and at the root of it is religion.

I never said religion can't be a motive . Religion is ONE motive, there are probably others as well. You can't do much about the genuine religious nutters except kill them or gaol them for life, but people who just want a bit of adventure will probably realise it's not worth the effort and the horror, and those sort of people can be worked on for intelligence on the ringleaders.

Again you make simplistic generalisations, applying one motive to a whole set of people involved in a complex scenario. That is simple minded to say the least.

 

[FxTrader]

I never said religion can't be a motive . Religion is ONE motive...
Again you make simplistic generalisations, applying one motive to a whole set of people involved in a complex scenario. That is simple minded to say the least.

It's the key and most important motive, anything else is peripheral and of much less significance and you simply don't seem to comprehend this. I choose to believe what they say about their own motives while you insist these religious fanatics must have more complex motivations, they don't.

Chose to imagine and concoct a more complex explanation if you wish but don't arrogantly assume for a moment that you are better informed than I am about the motivations of fundamentalist Islamists. I chose to believe them and you don't, let's leave it at that.