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By all means, keep on looking. If you can prove an external entity could not have created the Universe, fine. Can you ?
Religion IS crazy!
- Thread starter Sean K
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By all means, keep on looking. If you can prove an external entity could not have created the Universe, fine. Can you ?
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Shouldn't it be more up to those who say an all powerful figure created everything proving it, rather than just saying read the bible and taking it on faith?
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Don't confuse blind faith with rational thought as many do.
We live in a Universe with finely balanced laws and values that make it work. How did these arise ?
Some say it was all an accident and there are countless failed universes out there where the physics did not allow a stable state to evolve. If these universes could be observed then that could prove a God was not necessary, or instead was not a Supreme Being because he made a mistake with the physics in the failed universes. In the absence of such evidence, all we have is theory. No proof one way or the other.
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Okay you welcome his input, but perhaps you could tell me what new light the recent advent of VC has shed on "the view that the Bible and/or the sayings of Jesus are the only real truths". Why should you care and why do you feel the need to answer on behalf of VC? Is seems to me to be the same old recycled garbage going around in circles. The minority who hold these beliefs are harmless anyway.
Debating them achieves what? Have the views of these people impacted on your life to the extent that you want to encourage others to actively rubbish their beliefs?.
I am an atheist, but not because I disrespect the Biblical views of Christians...I just don't accept them.
Value Collector
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Can you prove big foot doesn't exist?
What about unicorns or fairies, can you prove they don't exist?
There are many claims about all sorts of supernatural things, the default position should always be non belief, because the burden of proof is on the ones making the claim.
After all, if they have genuine reasons to believe, they should be able to explain those beliefs and provide evidence.
The time to believe some thing is when we have evidence, until then I am happy to say "I don't know" and I'll remain an atheist.
Value Collector
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Heavens Calliope. This is a forum for discussion of religious topics with an emphasis on the crazy aspects of religion. No one is forced to partake. It is much the same as the many political threads that you yourself frequent. Are they any different in that hardly anybody has changed their political leanings after years of discussion. Aren't we seeing the same old recycled garbage there too, but I and others don't see the need to criticise those who still want to express their opinions on those forums.
Value Collector
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Well if people continue bringing out the same tired old arguments for god or against atheists, then they may get the same response,
2 is still the answer to 1+1, just like it was 1000 years ago, there is no need to try and present a more modern answer.
Why try explain arguments against religion you ask?
Simply because a lot of people in our society have never heard them, they grow up with indoctrination, and live surrounded by people who either share similar views or feign respect for "their world view", I see it as condescending to not engage people in conversation when they sprout irrational views.
Also, if these people are actively spreading misleading information on a public forum, I see nothing wrong with correcting them, or atleast providing an opposing view.
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Heavens bellenuit. If recycled garbage turns you on go for it. I am glad to see that you don't wish "to criticise those who still want to express their opinions on those forums"... apart from me that is.
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Heavens bellenuit. If recycled garbage turns you on go for it. I am glad to see that you don't wish "to criticise those who still want to express their opinions on those forums"... apart from me that is.
Calliope, that is too self referential for me to cope with at this hour of the night. I might be getting myself mixed up in a philosophical paradox and won't get to sleep until it is resolved.
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e=mc2, inverse square law of gravity, charges and masses of nuclear particles...
if any of these were different the universe would not hang together
Saying I don't know therefore it can't be a God is just an argument of arrogance.
Of course...why didn't I think of that! LOL
If you could ask the ancient aborigines what created their rainbow serpent, or if you could ask the ancient Vikings what created their god of thunder, or if you could ask the ancient Incas what created their sun god, you'd probably get a similar answer - nobody/nothing created him/her/it - it just always existed.
I think all gods - and there are/have been dozens or maybe even hundreds of them over the centuries, were created by the same thing.....the fertile imagination of humans.
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Calliope, that is too self referential for me to cope with at this hour of the night. I might be getting myself mixed up in a philosophical paradox and won't get to sleep until it is resolved.
Good morning bellenuit. I hope you slept well. I know it was very imprudent of me to be critical of other posters, who after all are only sticking to the concept of the title that Religion IS Crazy. This is all-encompsssing, but I don't think it was the intention of the originator. The inference that must be drawn from the title is that all adherents to a religion are crazy.
Some religions certainly ARE crazy. My neighbours attend church on Sundays. I don't know what form their craziness takes, but they are the kindest, friendliest and most helpful neighbours one could ever wish for.
Value Collector
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Do you even know if its possible for those things to change?
why would you assume they have been fine tuned, and invoke the idea of a finer tuner?
If they were different, some other universe would have formed, and if that other universe was capable of sustaining some other form of life, then that other form of life would have evolved.
For years it was thought the orbits of the planets were fine tuned, Newton thought the planet should eventually be thrown from their orbits, years later it was realised that the planets gravity interacting with each other made them stable, and no outside fine tuning was necessary.
That's not what I said.
I said "I don't know" there fore I don't believe in a god, It's exactly the same as unicorns, I don't know if some where in the universe an animal that we would describe as a unicorn exists, but I don't believe one does.
the time to believe in something is when you have evidence for it.
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Value Collector
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I don't think so, You don't have to be crazy to be fooled, you just have to be human.
Humans are very easily fooled, especially if you start fooling them at a young age. We are also extremely good at fooling ourselves, hence the existence of all the superstitions, most of us have even created our own personal superstitions, and we recognise patterns when no true patterns exist.
I don't think there is a difference between a person who prays to find their car keys, and a person who wears his lucky socks to win a game of football, both have fooled them selves into thinking these things invoke some supernatural force.
That's why it is very important to build a level of scepticism into yourself, otherwise you open your self up to believing all sorts of rubbish, not because your crazy, but because your not sceptical enough.
Saying that though, Religion can create all sorts of nasty things when genuinely crazy people take part.
Imagine some one who has been brought up to believe a god actually talks to people, developing a mental problem where they hear voices, suddenly this person may start acting as if their own random crazy thoughts are the word of god. Now that is scary, it's even scarier if this person call get disciples and gather a following.
Julia
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bellenuit has already provided the response I would.
Calliope, if you find anyone's expressed views boring and tedious, a simple solution would be to avoid reading the thread. Instead, you argue with people even when you couldn't care less about their opinions on anything.
Some of us find reading what others think interesting. That's why we're here. New people have thoughts that are fresh to an old thread and can provide aspects of a topic that may not have occurred to some of us before.
That's the value in general, to me anyway, of forums.
Fine. No one is denying you the right to that view. Just allow others to have a discussion if they want to.
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As I said before, show me the evidence of these other universes, and I'll believe you.
You want evidence of my belief, so I want evidence of yours.
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As Julia said, and i agree;
Some religious craziness can be quite humerous For instance it is not common knowledge that the Muslims have Moses to thank for having to pray only five times daily instead of 50. The story goes like this;
Mahomet rode up to the heavens on a strange angelic animal named Buraq accompanied the angel Gabriel. When they reached the seventh heaven where Allah resided;
http://answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/Vol1/3d.html
Some religious craziness can be quite humerous For instance it is not common knowledge that the Muslims have Moses to thank for having to pray only five times daily instead of 50. The story goes like this;
Mahomet rode up to the heavens on a strange angelic animal named Buraq accompanied the angel Gabriel. When they reached the seventh heaven where Allah resided;
http://answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/Vol1/3d.html
Value Collector
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I didn't say any existed, All I am saying is that if you altered those laws ( which we don't even know if its possible for them to be different) then some other universe would have been formed.
I am not making a positive claim that another universe has or will form, I am just stating the obvious that if the laws of physics were different then another universe would have formed instead of this one, and it makes sense if another form of life could be sustained in that universe it would eventual evolve thinking it's universe was fined tuned for it.
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OK point accepted, but if our universe is the only one in existence, then it's valid to ask why it formed at all. If it formed because of pre existing laws of quantum physics, then where did these laws come from ? Did they always exist ?
I'm sure you can see a parallel with the God argument. We will always be going around in circles on this question, and I can't see any end to it.