Knobby22
Mmmmmm 2nd breakfast
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Religion IS crazy!
- Thread starter Sean K
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Re: Religion gone crazy!
That's a popular view which I have to reject. It's entirely too simplistic a reduction. Any given action of a person is probabilistic in outcome. But the overall pattern of behaviour is bounded somewhat by a person's top-level beliefs and sociological structures. Top-level beliefs (worldview/paradigm) and society built on them will result in outcomes where desirable behaviours (paradigmatic and societal) are reinforced and encouraged, and undesirable behaviours are discouraged or punished. The structure and actions of social members are not always divorced from the paradigm. Hence in a society which demands allegiance to the state, rejection of religion and the subjugation of the individual to the group, a logical conclusion can be (has been, and is) that adherence to religion (or membership to a group eg. Jews) is damaging to the individual and the society and must be discouraged by any means necessary. In a completely materialist society, the conclusion that the elimination of certain beliefs and groups is "good", flows naturally from the paradigm. The materialistic and atheistic basis of some states cannot be divorced from the outcomes ie. holocaust, stalinist cleansings, killing fields and persecution of non state-sponsored Christians and Falun Gong members in modern China.
To believe that person A does X because of their religion but that person B does Y despite their atheism/materialism is, IMO, a naive generalisation.
Now I agree that religion should not have a privileged place in the sharing and critique of philosophies, and I fundamentally reject the view that there is a privileged and ideal philosophy that is the standard by which to judge all other worldviews....that includes materialism/atheism. It is not the default position for those who understand logic, philosophy, history and science.
There is way too much simplification in this thread.
That's a popular view which I have to reject. It's entirely too simplistic a reduction. Any given action of a person is probabilistic in outcome. But the overall pattern of behaviour is bounded somewhat by a person's top-level beliefs and sociological structures. Top-level beliefs (worldview/paradigm) and society built on them will result in outcomes where desirable behaviours (paradigmatic and societal) are reinforced and encouraged, and undesirable behaviours are discouraged or punished. The structure and actions of social members are not always divorced from the paradigm. Hence in a society which demands allegiance to the state, rejection of religion and the subjugation of the individual to the group, a logical conclusion can be (has been, and is) that adherence to religion (or membership to a group eg. Jews) is damaging to the individual and the society and must be discouraged by any means necessary. In a completely materialist society, the conclusion that the elimination of certain beliefs and groups is "good", flows naturally from the paradigm. The materialistic and atheistic basis of some states cannot be divorced from the outcomes ie. holocaust, stalinist cleansings, killing fields and persecution of non state-sponsored Christians and Falun Gong members in modern China.
To believe that person A does X because of their religion but that person B does Y despite their atheism/materialism is, IMO, a naive generalisation.
Now I agree that religion should not have a privileged place in the sharing and critique of philosophies, and I fundamentally reject the view that there is a privileged and ideal philosophy that is the standard by which to judge all other worldviews....that includes materialism/atheism. It is not the default position for those who understand logic, philosophy, history and science.
There is way too much simplification in this thread.
Sean K
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Re: Religion gone crazy!
Religion had a place in the human world at one time, and obviously still must as so many people 'believe' and 'have faith'. We still seem to need it for some reason. Perhaps there’s too many questioned left unanswered.
Its major problem, imo, is its dogmatic approach in following laws written 2000++ years ago which are irrelevant for today’s world. All religions need to take a look around, accept that science has changed the landscape, and what Yahweh, Gabriel and the other angels and demons laid out all those years ago, from mountain top clouds and burning bushes, is now bunk.
Is religion a philosophy? There is certainly a field of philosophy of religion, but I'm not sure if you could say it's a philosophy in its entirety.
Religion had a place in the human world at one time, and obviously still must as so many people 'believe' and 'have faith'. We still seem to need it for some reason. Perhaps there’s too many questioned left unanswered.
Its major problem, imo, is its dogmatic approach in following laws written 2000++ years ago which are irrelevant for today’s world. All religions need to take a look around, accept that science has changed the landscape, and what Yahweh, Gabriel and the other angels and demons laid out all those years ago, from mountain top clouds and burning bushes, is now bunk.
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Re: Religion gone crazy!
Dogmatism is not limited to religion and as demonstrated by a number of countries, materialist dogma can be ruthlessly destructive on a large scale.
Dogmatism is not limited to religion and as demonstrated by a number of countries, materialist dogma can be ruthlessly destructive on a large scale.
Sean K
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Re: Religion gone crazy!
I visited Chichen Itza today where the Maya sacrificed hundreds, and maybe thousands, to appease the gods. Most had their hearts cut out while they were still alive, the priest placed the beating hearts on a statue and they prayed to the gods, for whatever. The heart was then burned, and the now dead victim was thrown either in a Cenote (a big sink hole) or in a mass grave.
Religion, gone crazy....
Yeah, I agree. But how many people blow themselves up in a crowded market over not getting a pay rise?
I visited Chichen Itza today where the Maya sacrificed hundreds, and maybe thousands, to appease the gods. Most had their hearts cut out while they were still alive, the priest placed the beating hearts on a statue and they prayed to the gods, for whatever. The heart was then burned, and the now dead victim was thrown either in a Cenote (a big sink hole) or in a mass grave.
Religion, gone crazy....
Re: Religion gone crazy!
Excellent post.
There is good and bad in all world views. One does not need to agree with another's world view, but one must realise that sometimes people act consistently with their world view and other times they can act inconsistently. All too often criticism is levelled at a world view where people act inconsistent to their own world view and ignore the good that is done when people act consistently to their world view.
Excellent post.
There is good and bad in all world views. One does not need to agree with another's world view, but one must realise that sometimes people act consistently with their world view and other times they can act inconsistently. All too often criticism is levelled at a world view where people act inconsistent to their own world view and ignore the good that is done when people act consistently to their world view.
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Re: Religion gone crazy!
for sure, but athiesm still isn't the CAUSE of these behaviours. it may very well be a FACTOR, i'm not disputing this, but to say athiesm is the cause is an exact example of the simplistic thinking you mentioned. compare to some of the other messages in this thread where religious belief was the direct cause of the behaviour and you can see where the difference lies.
why? anyway that statement is a bit off - person A does X because of their religion, person B does X despite it. that means person B has other contributing factors to examine (like your broader social construct arguments)
well this is a pretty simple medium we are communicating over, black text over a light background with maybe a few emoticons thrown in. its pretty hard to convey deep nuance over http
for sure, but athiesm still isn't the CAUSE of these behaviours. it may very well be a FACTOR, i'm not disputing this, but to say athiesm is the cause is an exact example of the simplistic thinking you mentioned. compare to some of the other messages in this thread where religious belief was the direct cause of the behaviour and you can see where the difference lies.
why? anyway that statement is a bit off - person A does X because of their religion, person B does X despite it. that means person B has other contributing factors to examine (like your broader social construct arguments)
well this is a pretty simple medium we are communicating over, black text over a light background with maybe a few emoticons thrown in. its pretty hard to convey deep nuance over http
Sean K
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Re: Religion gone crazy!
I watched this unfold on TV today.
Result not what many would have expected.
Priest 'behind foiled plane hijacking' in
September 10, 2009
Article from: The Australian
A BOLIVIAN priest said he was acting on a divine revelation when he hijacked a Mexican plane mid-air with 104 people on board.
Bible-carrying Jose Flores Mar Pereira was said by Mexican officials to have hijacked the Aeromexico plane after it left the popular tourist resort of Cancun on a flight to Mexico City.
He told authorities after his arrest that he had "had a revelation that Mexico was facing a great danger, and was threatened by an earthquake,'' public security official, Genaro Garcia Luna, said.
The alleged hijacker was said to be a former prisoner and drug addict, who has lived in Mexico for 17 years. But it was not immediately clear if he was helped by others amid reports that up to six people had been arrested.
All the people onboard the flight were safely evacuated at Mexico City, officials said, as security forces swarmed the capital's international airport within minutes of the plane landing.
Six people were shown being led away in handcuffs by Mexican television.
I watched this unfold on TV today.
Result not what many would have expected.
Priest 'behind foiled plane hijacking' in
September 10, 2009
Article from: The Australian
A BOLIVIAN priest said he was acting on a divine revelation when he hijacked a Mexican plane mid-air with 104 people on board.
Bible-carrying Jose Flores Mar Pereira was said by Mexican officials to have hijacked the Aeromexico plane after it left the popular tourist resort of Cancun on a flight to Mexico City.
He told authorities after his arrest that he had "had a revelation that Mexico was facing a great danger, and was threatened by an earthquake,'' public security official, Genaro Garcia Luna, said.
The alleged hijacker was said to be a former prisoner and drug addict, who has lived in Mexico for 17 years. But it was not immediately clear if he was helped by others amid reports that up to six people had been arrested.
All the people onboard the flight were safely evacuated at Mexico City, officials said, as security forces swarmed the capital's international airport within minutes of the plane landing.
Six people were shown being led away in handcuffs by Mexican television.
Sean K
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Re: Religion gone crazy!
Is this the year 2009?
Maybe it's 0500 in Aceh still.
Stoned to death for adultery. No words can explain my dismay.
Whipping for pre-marital sex. I would have been one whipped up boy.
Aceh to allow stoning to death
Stephen Fitzpatrick,
Jakarta correspondent | September 15, 2009
Article from: The Australian
PARLIAMENTARIANS in the Indonesian province of Aceh yesterday passed a law that would allow stoning to death for adultery and whipping for premarital sex.
Critics plan to mount a legal challenge to the sharia law provisions, passed at the last possible moment before the current parliament in Banda Aceh is dissolved.
The draft law came from the office of Governor Irwandi Yusuf, a US-educated veterinarian with secular views who spent his early adult years fighting in the Acehnese armed resistance.
It was drafted in response to popular pressure to fully implement sharia law in the province, under the terms of an autonomy deal struck in 2000. Mr Yusuf is not thought to support the law's more extreme elements, cobbled together by a parliamentary committee.
Is this the year 2009?
Maybe it's 0500 in Aceh still.
Stoned to death for adultery. No words can explain my dismay.
Whipping for pre-marital sex. I would have been one whipped up boy.
Aceh to allow stoning to death
Stephen Fitzpatrick,
Jakarta correspondent | September 15, 2009
Article from: The Australian
PARLIAMENTARIANS in the Indonesian province of Aceh yesterday passed a law that would allow stoning to death for adultery and whipping for premarital sex.
Critics plan to mount a legal challenge to the sharia law provisions, passed at the last possible moment before the current parliament in Banda Aceh is dissolved.
The draft law came from the office of Governor Irwandi Yusuf, a US-educated veterinarian with secular views who spent his early adult years fighting in the Acehnese armed resistance.
It was drafted in response to popular pressure to fully implement sharia law in the province, under the terms of an autonomy deal struck in 2000. Mr Yusuf is not thought to support the law's more extreme elements, cobbled together by a parliamentary committee.
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Re: Religion gone crazy!
We may as well prepare the next generation for these characters, they are multiplying like rabbits.
The muslim population of Europe is doubling every 20 years.
Worth a look (bearing in mind that it produced by some scared yanks)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATXns0ywQ08&feature=related
We may as well prepare the next generation for these characters, they are multiplying like rabbits.
The muslim population of Europe is doubling every 20 years.
Worth a look (bearing in mind that it produced by some scared yanks)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATXns0ywQ08&feature=related
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Re: Religion gone crazy!
Uh oh
Looks like the godbotherers are at it again!
Profit `Not Satanic,’ Barclays Says, After Goldman Invokes Jesus
Nov. 4 (Bloomberg) -- Barclays Plc Chief Executive Officer John Varley stood at the wooden lectern in St. Martin-in-the- Fields on London’s Trafalgar Square last night and told the packed pews of the church that “profit is not satanic.”
The 53-year-old head of Britain’s second-biggest bank said banks are the “backbone” of the economy. Rewarding high- performing bankers with more pay doesn’t conflict with Christian values, he said. Varley was paid 1.08 million pounds ($1.77 million) and no bonus in 2008.
“Talent is highly mobile,” Varley, a Catholic, said. “If we fail to pay or are constrained from paying competitive rates then that talent will move to another employer.”
“Is Christianity and banking compatible? Yes,” he said in an interview after the speech in the 283-year-old church. “And is Christianity and fair reward compatible? Yes.”
Varley joins Goldman Sachs International adviser Brian Griffiths and Lazard International Chairman Ken Costa as London bankers who’ve gone into London churches in recent weeks and invoked Christianity to defend a banking system that critics say has created wealth and inequality in the U.K.
“The injunction of Jesus to love others as ourselves is an endorsement of self-interest,” Goldman’s Griffiths said Oct. 20, his voice echoing around the gold-mosaic walls of St. Paul’s Cathedral, whose 365-feet-high dome towers over the City, London’s financial district. “We have to tolerate the inequality as a way to achieving greater prosperity and opportunity for all.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aySZ9TS.aODA&pos=11
Uh oh
Looks like the godbotherers are at it again!
Profit `Not Satanic,’ Barclays Says, After Goldman Invokes Jesus
Nov. 4 (Bloomberg) -- Barclays Plc Chief Executive Officer John Varley stood at the wooden lectern in St. Martin-in-the- Fields on London’s Trafalgar Square last night and told the packed pews of the church that “profit is not satanic.”
The 53-year-old head of Britain’s second-biggest bank said banks are the “backbone” of the economy. Rewarding high- performing bankers with more pay doesn’t conflict with Christian values, he said. Varley was paid 1.08 million pounds ($1.77 million) and no bonus in 2008.
“Talent is highly mobile,” Varley, a Catholic, said. “If we fail to pay or are constrained from paying competitive rates then that talent will move to another employer.”
“Is Christianity and banking compatible? Yes,” he said in an interview after the speech in the 283-year-old church. “And is Christianity and fair reward compatible? Yes.”
Varley joins Goldman Sachs International adviser Brian Griffiths and Lazard International Chairman Ken Costa as London bankers who’ve gone into London churches in recent weeks and invoked Christianity to defend a banking system that critics say has created wealth and inequality in the U.K.
“The injunction of Jesus to love others as ourselves is an endorsement of self-interest,” Goldman’s Griffiths said Oct. 20, his voice echoing around the gold-mosaic walls of St. Paul’s Cathedral, whose 365-feet-high dome towers over the City, London’s financial district. “We have to tolerate the inequality as a way to achieving greater prosperity and opportunity for all.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aySZ9TS.aODA&pos=11
wayneL
VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!
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Re: Religion gone crazy!
Newspeak.
War is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength etc.
Newspeak.
War is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength etc.
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Re: Religion gone crazy!
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/offbeat/6535760/police-shoot-and-kill-jesus/
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/offbeat/6535760/police-shoot-and-kill-jesus/
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Re: Religion gone crazy!
http://www.news.com.au/world/khamis...ciating-with-men/story-e6frfkyi-1225810439816
HUMAN rights watchdog Amnesty International has called on Saudi Arabia to stay a sentence of 40 lashes handed down against a 75-year-old woman for breaching the kingdom's sex segregation rules.
"The minister of the interior (Prince Nayef bin Abdul Aziz) is reported to have ordered the immediate detention and flogging of a 75-year-old woman, Khamisa Mohammed Sawadi, along with two Saudi Arabian men known only as Fahad and Hadyan," the London-based watchdog said.
http://www.news.com.au/world/khamis...ciating-with-men/story-e6frfkyi-1225810439816
HUMAN rights watchdog Amnesty International has called on Saudi Arabia to stay a sentence of 40 lashes handed down against a 75-year-old woman for breaching the kingdom's sex segregation rules.
"The minister of the interior (Prince Nayef bin Abdul Aziz) is reported to have ordered the immediate detention and flogging of a 75-year-old woman, Khamisa Mohammed Sawadi, along with two Saudi Arabian men known only as Fahad and Hadyan," the London-based watchdog said.
Re: Religion gone crazy!
Christians and Islamists going crazy.
First the Christians. Death penalty to be imposed in Uganda for being gay.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2010/apr/19/uganda-death-penalty-gay-mp-banned-from-uk
And the Islamists think women wearing revealing clothing is causing earthquakes
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/19/women-blame-earthquakes-iran-cleric
Christians and Islamists going crazy.
First the Christians. Death penalty to be imposed in Uganda for being gay.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2010/apr/19/uganda-death-penalty-gay-mp-banned-from-uk
And the Islamists think women wearing revealing clothing is causing earthquakes
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/19/women-blame-earthquakes-iran-cleric
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Re: Religion gone crazy!
He may have a point
TV footage of one of the historic hotels in Kalgoorlie-Boulder that was badly damaged in the earthquake a few days back shows a sign out front proclaiming "skimpy barmaids" will be waitressing.
He may have a point
TV footage of one of the historic hotels in Kalgoorlie-Boulder that was badly damaged in the earthquake a few days back shows a sign out front proclaiming "skimpy barmaids" will be waitressing.