Raise the legal drinking age to 21?

gav · 22 October 2009

prawn_86 said:
Why not. If they are no more harmful than the currently legalised drugs im all for it.

Actually they are a lot less harmful than alcohol and cigarrettes. Usually it seems when people are all for legalising party drugs, one mention of the "S" word and its "oh but thats dangerous"

It's actually legal to buy and use steroids in the UK, but for personal use only. However I wouldn't use if they were made legal here. But then again, I don't drink or smoke either...

One thing I will say though, to anyone that causes any damage to their body from using drugs: you can pay your own medical bills - not the public health system. That includes alcoholics and smokers.

Wysiwyg · 22 October 2009

prawn_86 said:
I agree with the fact that as long as it doesn't hurt others then people should be able to do what they want.

Hallucinogens have only become readily available in recent times while alcohol and tobacco have been consumed for much longer. Maybe when more is understood then it will be decriminalised.

P.s. don`t do it in Indonesia.

aaronphetamine · 22 October 2009

I find it funny that most members here on a Stock Forum - which promotes free markets, democracy, freedom of information in the financial markets, transparency etc is so content with the way we are all losing our civil liberties due to sudden, rash and uninformed legislation passed to please the general brain-washed, scare mongered public.

Where it concerns the financial systems and companies; less regulation is more and less laws the better and im sure we are all in a uniform support on this notion. But when it concerns the civil liberties of not only yourselves, but every citizen of this country most of you seem to be of the notion that the less civil liberties individuals have, the better.

And its not your fault at all. Youve all been raised to conform and meet societies expectations which have been set by the governments and washed into you by media sensasionalisations and scare mongering.

For instance due to media beat ups propogated through mass media mediums such as the TV and Newspaper I bet every person who lives in Brisbane sincerly believes that after about 10pm on a Friday and Saturday night Fortitude Valley (Brisbane's Clubbing District) cessates into a bloody, degenerated cess pool of belam where rapes, fights, stabbings, abuse and sex run rampant and uncontrolled by the cities unwhelmed number of police and ambulance officers.

There can be no good outcome through this stigma that has now entrenched itself with in Brisbane and im sure every other clubbing district of every city in Australia - and it serves no purpose other than to spruke up the media ratings and mislead and deceive the unmoderated and generally unimformed public to believing that destroying our civil liberties further is the only way to reach an effective and sustainable outcome.

This thread should really be renamed from "raise the legal drinking age to 21" to "we'd like to decrease our civil liberties further please"...

I'd like to share a little scenario here. What if I told you that the hepatic and neuro toxicity of common legal paracetamol is magnitudes higher per dosage, than say, several illegal methylated phenethylamines? Would my argument hold any sentiment in the minds of the general public after decades of tyrannical nonsense thrown in their faces daily by government outlets and media through the likes of the Australian Government, US Government, DEA and media outlets... Ofcourse you would throw my facts out as rubbish... why would the government lie and decieve you ? Ofcourse cigarettes and healthier than MDMA... becuase the government says theyre legal.

Abusing paracetamol (legal) and MDMA (illegal) will both land you in the grave early - but so will abusing salt and polyunsaturated fats (both legal)

I have a degree in applied science chem major.

awg · 22 October 2009

nunthewiser said:
..... pop a pill and boogie the night away cheaply seems the go these days.

and no vomiting in your taxi on the way home

Kash Kosmo · 22 October 2009

In Star Trek they use synthahol

One idea is lower the Alcohol % so one will need to consume a few litres of liquid to reach .01

But seriously its one of the governments biggest revenue sources

KK

gav · 22 October 2009

Kash Kosmo said:
But seriously its one of the governments biggest revenue sources

Why not make illegal drugs legal, so they can be huge revenue sources for the govt too?

Wysiwyg · 22 October 2009

gav said:
Why not make illegal drugs legal, so they can be huge revenue sources for the govt too?

Social costs the whole community would have to bare is inhibitive and morally wrong. Medical, employment, education, family would all be adversely affected by people who become addicted (like al/tob.). Not only addicted but need a bigger fix because of the "coming down" phase. It would be near impossible to regulate as people would make their own or buy on the black market.

Let us remember the habitual nature of the things we do.

DB008 · 22 October 2009

I don't think that raising the age to 21 will do anything IMO. And a stupid move if ever done.

As others have said, it will only drive it underground. How many of us got booze before we turned 18? Will it make a difference if you have to be 25 to drink....no.

It's a cultural thing, to a point. l mean, there are 18 y.o's getting para around the world, every weekend. Whether it's here, Germany, Ireland, Mexico, teens will still get drunk regardless. Raising the limit won't go jack.
Education and been taught from a young age about responsibilities, liver damage might do more than raising the drinking age.

MrBurns · 22 October 2009

Tink said:
By cultural, its the attitude towards alcohol in this country.

Then when they travel out of the country, they are in all sorts of trouble overseas, and there they are on the news.

I am actually for the warnings on alcohol, as they did with cigarettes.

Time for the alcohol companies to get abit of heat.

Agreed. actually a lot of heat, how about prosecuting hoteliers for serving drunks, there's only been a handful of prosections in years.

The whole industry is a boys club, a drunken immature boys club.

explod · 22 October 2009

Agentm said:
have you researched this through?

regardless of the alleged failure in the usa.. the human brain is not adult until way past the 18 years old region.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/2006/02/06.html

i would have thought a suggestion of minimising alcohol in these years of brain development would also be very positive move against one of the biggest problems facing our society atm..

In my 28 years in the police force what you say about the human brain seems to be correct. Since have learnt that the frontal lobes of the brain, particularly in males does not mature till about age 27. This being the case means that they should also not be in the debate on the issue.

Motor car accidents, brawling on the street, drunkeness figures all support the neurological reserach.

the answer may be in following posts, this is just the first on this thread I have looked at

explod · 22 October 2009

MrBurns said:
Agreed. actually a lot of heat, how about prosecuting hoteliers for serving drunks, there's only been a handful of prosections in years.

The whole industry is a boys club, a drunken immature boys club.

This is a conundrum, as a young sergeant I put in many reports and briefs against hoteliers for serving drunks, they were never approved, learnt gradually that the Inspectors used to enjoy free drinks at those establishments. Attended a fatal some years before as a Constable, a head on ,one driver killed instantly was a local ambulance driver who I knew personally,(small country town) the ambulance driver who attended was his buddy (they were the only two stationed in the town together) The driver of the other car was proved to be on the wrong side of the road. He was 18 years old and had just left the hotel where it was proved at the inquest later that patrons had physically tried to stop him from driving, said to have been staggering drunk. The publican had filled him up and though the Coroner had made certain findings, nothing ever happened. The accident was out of my area, the Senior Constable who got the call asked me to do it as he was too inebriated himslef. The very hotel was his personal watering hole where he never ever had to pay for a drink, and often whilst he was on duty in uniform.

So if you all think I am against publicans yo are sure bl...dy right and its timewe did something about it

explosion

explod · 22 October 2009

gav said:
Why not make illegal drugs legal, so they can be huge revenue sources for the govt too?

Agree with that,.... why? it would allow the authorities knowledge of the entire situation and then the ability to bring about some control. Tax does not concern me but the big leaches making a fortune out of importing or manufacturing it to the detriment of lives would be curtailed, and I can assure as a senior cop in later years I learned that the high class leaches had big connections, and supported some of the higher stations of government. Probably still do.

explosion

explod · 22 October 2009

DB008 It's a cultural thing said:
Of course, and we have to grow and be a part of the growth together, the only way we can learn.

However it needs to be removed from the public place and highways. When I was a youngster I drank with my Farther who was also a friend. Some of that has sadly gone.

explod · 22 October 2009

Calliope said:
What would be the point. Children under 18 have no trouble getting all the grog they need now, and the law does very little about it. It is a waste of time making laws that can't (or won't) 'be policed.

.

Sad to say that what you relate is close to the mark. Though many drink outlets try hard the bigger culprit is the parents who buy it on behalf of the minors, in many cases because the monors control the parents or the parents just want the kids to be out of their hair.

explod · 22 October 2009

Smurf1976 said:
Not many Australians would reach the age of 16 without having tried alcohol and also smoking, both of which are illegal at that age. Prohibition in any form never has and never will work, that's the lesson of history and we see it clearly today as well.

.

I tried to prevent or shield my kids from alcohol and it did not work, what you say is correct.

However what did work is that, when I found out, rather than scold I discussed it with them and we worked out boundaries and some understanding, nothing is perfect, but they tended to become more conscious of the ramifications. The worst was my eldest, she is now a Detctive Sergeant with two great children of her own now, loves life and a drink, told me recently at a girls night out off duty that she had fallen off a table whilst doing a dance prank.

The key, is parental and education, but that takes earnest grunt from us all, and I bvelieve we have become lax on real responsibility. We go crook at the young ones, but what are we really up to ourselves.

explosion

awg · 22 October 2009

MrBurns said:
Agreed. actually a lot of heat, how about prosecuting hoteliers for serving drunks, there's only been a handful of prosections in years.

The whole industry is a boys club, a drunken immature boys club.

Reason it wont happen IMO, is the Hotel association and related Alcohol and Gaming Industry is a very large contributor to both political donation and especially tax.

Even though I do drink myself, I am generally appalled at the excessive drinking culture that exists in society.

If pubs never served intoxicated persons they would be out of business tommorow.

Same with excessive gaming.

Same with smoking to.

Have to balance all that against excessive restriction of personal freedom.

I have long been a proponent of drink drivers being publicly flogged as half-time entertainment at the football, NO exceptions..( just a light flogging on the buttocks, enough to hurt and humiliate, no blood, televised on the big screen)

Smurf1976 · 22 October 2009

beerwm said:
so 16 year-old school kids getting drunk with 40+ adults....

maybe you didnt think that through.

I can certainly see potential problems and yes it's something I've thought about on and off for years.

16 year olds are going to get smashed on alcohol somewhere. What's safer? Cheap grog on the streets, in the bush or otherwise well away from any form of supervision, security and medical help? Or drinking in a hotel which should have at least something in terms of security and supervision?

I see the whole issue as being about harm minimisation in much the same way as dealing with natural disasters is about harm minimisation. Teenagers are going to drink whether anyone likes it or not just as there will be floods and fires. All we can do is take steps to minimise the harm these things cause, that they will happen is a certainty.

Smoking is another classic example. It's attractive when you're 16 largely because it's "adult" and you're not allowed to do it. Simply by making it an 18+ activity, society sends a very strong message that smoking is an "adult" thing to do. And most 16 year olds want to act like what they perceive to be an adult.

There's a certain satisfaction in showing that ID and actually being sold the smokes or let in the door of the club. You are, finally, an adult and allowing you to drink, smoke, gamble and drive is essentially all society offers as a reward. That's sending all the wrong messages in my opinion, hence all the problems we have with drinking, driving etc amongst 18 - 21 year olds - they're reached adulthood and are taking the only "reward" that society has offered.

explod · 22 October 2009

Smurf1976 said:
I can certainly see potential problems and yes it's something I've thought about on and off for years.

16 year olds are going to get smashed on alcohol somewhere. What's safer? Cheap grog on the streets, in the bush or otherwise well away from any form of supervision, security and medical help? Or drinking in a hotel which should have at least something in terms of security and supervision?

I see the whole issue as being about harm minimisation in much the same way as dealing with natural disasters is about harm minimisation. Teenagers are going to drink whether anyone likes it or not just as there will be floods and fires. All we can do is take steps to minimise the harm these things cause, that they will happen is a certainty.

Smoking is another classic example. It's attractive when you're 16 largely because it's "adult" and you're not allowed to do it. Simply by making it an 18+ activity, society sends a very strong message that smoking is an "adult" thing to do. And most 16 year olds want to act like what they perceive to be an adult.

There's a certain satisfaction in showing that ID and actually being sold the smokes or let in the door of the club. You are, finally, an adult and allowing you to drink, smoke, gamble and drive is essentially all society offers as a reward. That's sending all the wrong messages in my opinion, hence all the problems we have with drinking, driving etc amongst 18 - 21 year olds - they're reached adulthood and are taking the only "reward" that society has offered.

Well said,

we need to identify with the needs and feelings of the young, society thinks too much as individual, me me me, and not of others and particularly not the needs of young people. And they are the future

gav · 22 October 2009

Wysiwyg said:
Social costs the whole community would have to bare is inhibitive and morally wrong. Medical, employment, education, family would all be adversely affected by people who become addicted (like al/tob.). Not only addicted but need a bigger fix because of the "coming down" phase. It would be near impossible to regulate as people would make their own or buy on the black market.

Let us remember the habitual nature of the things we do.

Your argument makes no sense. How is it OK for society to have the burden of alcoholics and smokers, yet not other drugs? And I don't see how regulation would be any different to alcohol/cig's.

As Prawn said, allow everything or ban everything...

I also have no probs with the govt taxing the $hit out of it, people will still buy it. People still smoke ciggies, regardless of how much its taxed. I know people on the dole who complain about not having any money, yet they always manage to find enough coin to purchase their alcohol and ciggies.

white_crane · 22 October 2009

aaronphetamine said:
I find it funny that most members here on a Stock Forum - which promotes free markets, democracy, freedom of information in the financial markets, transparency etc is so content with the way we are all losing our civil liberties due to sudden, rash and uninformed legislation passed to please the general brain-washed, scare mongered public.

Where it concerns the financial systems and companies; less regulation is more and less laws the better and im sure we are all in a uniform support on this notion. But when it concerns the civil liberties of not only yourselves, but every citizen of this country most of you seem to be of the notion that the less civil liberties individuals have, the better.

And its not your fault at all. Youve all been raised to conform and meet societies expectations which have been set by the governments and washed into you by media sensasionalisations and scare mongering.

For instance due to media beat ups propogated through mass media mediums such as the TV and Newspaper I bet every person who lives in Brisbane sincerly believes that after about 10pm on a Friday and Saturday night Fortitude Valley (Brisbane's Clubbing District) cessates into a bloody, degenerated cess pool of belam where rapes, fights, stabbings, abuse and sex run rampant and uncontrolled by the cities unwhelmed number of police and ambulance officers.

There can be no good outcome through this stigma that has now entrenched itself with in Brisbane and im sure every other clubbing district of every city in Australia - and it serves no purpose other than to spruke up the media ratings and mislead and deceive the unmoderated and generally unimformed public to believing that destroying our civil liberties further is the only way to reach an effective and sustainable outcome.

This thread should really be renamed from "raise the legal drinking age to 21" to "we'd like to decrease our civil liberties further please"...

I'd like to share a little scenario here. What if I told you that the hepatic and neuro toxicity of common legal paracetamol is magnitudes higher per dosage, than say, several illegal methylated phenethylamines? Would my argument hold any sentiment in the minds of the general public after decades of tyrannical nonsense thrown in their faces daily by government outlets and media through the likes of the Australian Government, US Government, DEA and media outlets... Ofcourse you would throw my facts out as rubbish... why would the government lie and decieve you ? Ofcourse cigarettes and healthier than MDMA... becuase the government says theyre legal.

Abusing paracetamol (legal) and MDMA (illegal) will both land you in the grave early - but so will abusing salt and polyunsaturated fats (both legal)

I have a degree in applied science chem major.

Well said.

Raise the legal drinking age to 21?

gav

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