Psychology - Personal Development

[ChaoSI]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

I practice a 'cessation' type of meditation (aka, concentration, absorption, samatha). I do it on my own.

... you might see that the core practice common to all is a quietening of the inner dialogue.

i heard that meditation gives some quite good results for people =) (goes to look up what samatha is..... oooh) so is the idea of the meditation so calm everything down to allow you to bring your conscious attention onto issues that might actually lie in your subconscious? (i've found that i can never do it properly.... i always end up falling asleep during meditation... good sleep tho )

I also find it interesting that some people look for quiet in the 'soul' or unification of the voices inside.

call me crazy :.. but i find the presence of numerous voices inside invaluable when contemplating a problem, it is literally like having 30 perspectives roaming around in your head


anybody else notice that i have waaaaay too much free time at work?

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

I find it hard too. Thinking seems to be so tied up with who we think we are. I didn't realize that until recently. Sudden cessation of thought can actually be quite a shock to someone accustomed to doing a lot of thinking. It can feel very foreign, like you shouldn't even be attempting it.

I found relaxing the body first can help a little bit. Also trying lots of different methods, because some will suit my natural disposition better than others.

 

[ChaoSI]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

I find it hard too. Thinking seems to be so tied up with who we think we are. I didn't realize that until recently. Sudden cessation of thought can actually be quite a shock to someone accustomed to doing a lot of thinking. It can feel very foreign, like you shouldn't even be attempting it.

I found relaxing the body first can help a little bit. Also trying lots of different methods, because some will suit my natural disposition better than others.

well if you consider that the brain is constantly active. to actually think about nothing goes completely against the grain of what the brain's there for. it's like using an Iron to freeze water...

now that i THINK about it. you ever get those times when your eyes loose focus and you stare off into space and 'space out' ? I mean you're pretty much thinking about nothing during those periods of time yet your eyes are open.

so the idea of what you do is to stop thinking and empty your mind?

 

[Wysiwyg]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

Yeah mate I was presenting an idea (different from your quotes I posted) that human is a predominantly repetitive creature as is most of nature, based upon survival. The alarm goes off and the work script is practiced daily to get the money to get the food, clothing and shelter. Survival is a bit more sophisticated in most parts of the world nowadays obviously because we have the ability to improve (from a subjective point of view of course) on what has been before.

a lot of these habits have a trigger, and this trigger sparks a sequence of thoughts in your head about the actions that you should take.

Could it be postulated all living organism moments are responses to triggers?

though really you could argue the first 3 things are pretty much the same thing.. i'm guessing you're referring to subclinical categories of these things> as opposed to like anxiety driven OCD or addictive behaviours?

Yes mate they are all alike. I am not familiar with clinical examples.

Just be aware that few people see what is there, only what they THINK is there.

Oh you mean reality via agreement.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

now that i THINK about it. you ever get those times when your eyes loose focus and you stare off into space and 'space out' ? I mean you're pretty much thinking about nothing during those periods of time yet your eyes are open.

so the idea of what you do is to stop thinking and empty your mind?

I think spacing out is a bit different actually. To me, spacing out (say in front of the tv) feels like I'm disconnecting from everything, similar to if I've had a few quick drinks - it feels sort of pleasant but still separate to everything. Concentration practice feels like I become absorbed into the object of my attention. Subjectively, that's a much nicer and more natural feeling than 5 scotches.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

so the idea of what you do is to stop thinking and empty your mind?

I wonder if any studies have been done on what the self-talk is like with undesirable people. Is it loud, aggressive and nonsensical or placid, calm and calculated. I suggest negative (for want of a better word) thoughts can be replaced with positive (again) thoughts.

 

[ChaoSI]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

Could it be postulated all living organism moments are responses to triggers?

Oh you mean reality via agreement.

it could indeed!
it's the big question isn't it? is everything deterministic or are we free willed? is it destiny or a free for all?
there's physiological evidence that our DNA is altered on a constant basis in order to respond to the environment. (epigenetics it's called)
but i'm of the opinion that while there may be a destiny of sorts it's not entirely concrete it's a fluid, and adaptable thing based on the decisions you make =) (lol basically i'm sitting on the fence for this argument )

and yeah of course if everybody thinks it's right then it MUST be right..... right?
i mean.... everybody believed the world is flat... and it IS!!!.... wait... isn't it?

I think spacing out is a bit different actually. To me, spacing out (say in front of the tv) feels like I'm disconnecting from everything, similar to if I've had a few quick drinks - it feels sort of pleasant but still separate to everything. Concentration practice feels like I become absorbed into the object of my attention. Subjectively, that's a much nicer and more natural feeling than 5 scotches.

hahahaha yeah you're right, it is more of a disconnection/dissociation feeling and not thinking about anything. but wow... being able to bring the whole mind onto a single problem.... pretty insane stuff Oo

 

[ChaoSI]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

I wonder if any studies have been done on what the self-talk is like with undesirable people. Is it loud, aggressive and nonsensical or placid, calm and calculated. I suggest negative (for want of a better word) thoughts can be replaced with positive (again) thoughts.

lol what's "undesirable people"

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

chaos, I found this little excerpt which might shed some more light upon "spacing out versus absorption" topic.

taken from: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/jhananumbers.html

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The second state was one I happened to hit one night when my concentration was extremely one-pointed, and so refined that it refused settle on or label even the most fleeting mental objects. I dropped into a state in which I lost all sense of the body, of any internal/external sounds, or of any thoughts or perceptions at all — although there was just enough tiny awareness to let me know, when I emerged, that I hadn't been asleep. I found that I could stay there for many hours, and yet time would pass very quickly. Two hours would seem like two minutes. I could also "program" myself to come out at a particular time.

After hitting this state several nights in a row, I told Ajaan Fuang about it, and his first question was, "Do you like it?" My answer was "No," because I felt a little groggy the first time I came out. "Good," he said. "As long as you don't like it, you're safe. Some people really like it and think it's nibbana or cessation. Actually, it's the state of non-perception (asaññi-bhava). It's not even right concentration, because there's no way you can investigate anything in there to gain any sort of discernment. But it does have other uses." He then told me of the time he had undergone kidney surgery and, not trusting the anesthesiologist, had put himself in that state for the duration of the operation.

In both these states of wrong concentration, the limited range of awareness was what made them wrong. If whole areas of your awareness are blocked off, how can you gain all-around insight? And as I've noticed in years since, people adept at blotting out large areas of awareness through powerful one-pointedness also tend to be psychologically adept at dissociation and denial. This is why Ajaan Fuang, following Ajaan Lee, taught a form of breath meditation that aimed at an all-around awareness of the breath energy throughout the body, playing with it to gain a sense of ease, and then calming it so that it wouldn't interfere with a clear vision of the subtle movements of the mind. This all-around awareness helped to eliminate the blind spots where ignorance likes to lurk.

An ideal state of concentration for giving rise to insight is one that you can analyze in terms of stress and the absence of stress even while you're in it. Once your mind was firmly established in a state of concentration, Ajaan Fuang would recommend "lifting" it from its object, but not so far that the concentration was destroyed. From that perspective, you could evaluate what levels of stress were still present in the concentration and let them go. In the initial stages, this usually involved evaluating how you were relating to the breath, and detecting more subtle levels of breath energy in the body that would provide a basis for deeper levels of stillness. Once the breath was perfectly still, and the sense of the body started dissolving into a formless mist, this process would involve detecting the perceptions of "space," "knowing," "oneness," etc., that would appear in place of the body and could be peeled away like the layers of an onion in the mind. In either case, the basic pattern was the same: detecting the level of perception or mental fabrication that was causing the unnecessary stress, and dropping it for a more subtle level of perception or fabrication until there was nothing left to drop.

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Sounds like trance/hypnotic state might be an extension of the 'spaced out' mode of being. Anyway, there seems to be a difference.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

i
but i'm of the opinion that while there may be a destiny of sorts it's not entirely concrete it's a fluid, and adaptable thing based on the decisions you make =) (lol basically i'm sitting on the fence for this argument )

It is observed and experienced that control of our own thoughts/actions and even greater control, that of other people, does determine an outcome. Group control through dictatorship as in the Middle East is a glaring example. Democratic Government control being permissive control where the majority choose who will govern them.

Many a feud begins when an individual or group tries to control another or group without consent (see life rights). Then there is subtle control as in encouragement, persuasion or stealth. Pet hate the last few.

 

[ChaoSI]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

GB thanks fo r the link.. interesting read =)


wysi: hate encouragement??ah but a lot of life is trying to convince or persuade others no?
partners, workmates, friends? it's a constant changing dance with the lead *supposedly* changing....

anybody else think we just hijacked this thread?

 

[Wysiwyg]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

wysi: hate encouragement??

Encouragement to buy something or encouragement to invest time, money and emotion, yes.

Encouragement to achieve goals and be a righteous person, no.

 

[ChaoSI]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

Encouragement to buy something or encouragement to invest time, money and emotion, yes.

Encouragement to achieve goals and be a righteous person, no.

aaaah the first i would classify as persuasion
or marketing....
or advertising....

 

[pavilion103]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

I'm only a new trader, but psychology is my field so one of the few threads i have knowledge to bring to bear on

I disagree with the need for personal development books and tools etc.
The category in itself is ironic.
you go to someone else for your own personal development, that's like the misconception that you go to a psychologist or a life coach to find out how to live your own life. The 'consultant' is ecstatic! it's just like those what is it ... you guys call it a ..."black box" ? or something people? basically those who give out seminars selling their "AWESOME CANNOT LOSE" systems. Few of you here would believe or buy into that stuff and that's something external to your self.
My friend told me to go read some book about cheese? "where's my cheese" or something....cheesey cool like that and i read through and i never realised that people needed to read this drivel.

I've always been quite an introspective person, i think about weird things in a great many perspectives and then i see these 'life consultants' with their bells and whistles.
and i wonder... the human mind is one of the most adaptive and flexible things on the planet. Is there anything that the guy is spouting that you couldn't have come up with yourself?

Imo a large part of 'personal development' is knowing yourself. Not just your roles and what you do and the superficial reason why you do stuff, but i mean REALLY know yourself, be brave enough to dig into those really dark corners of your mind.
Challenge every thought you have, the minute you say "oh it's this, always is" is the minute you close your mind to alternatives and be poorer for it. This especially applies in trading because of emotional control, when you see a stock and get all excited, you should ask.. why you are being excited? it's just a line on a graph no?

i'm going to finish up cos otherwise i'll be writing an essay.

here's a thought i had the other day though.

People change ideas and thoughts everyday, we are shaped by the world as much as we shape it....

so why does religion persist in largely the same form.. and why can't a person believe 2 religions in the same way we have a general belief and have exceptions to this?
Isn't our mind capable of holding more than one belief at a time? Of course it can so why this seeming monogamy with a religion (including atheism)?

For some reason this struck me. Religions contradict one another. It is not possible to believe 2 at the same time. Atheism believes that there is no God. Hindus believe there are many God's. Christians believe Jesus is the son of God. Buddhism doesn't acknowledge either way if there is a God or not. You can only have one belief system in this regard. Now you may be an Agnostic and acknowledge that there could be a God. Every one of these beliefs is different.

Also with personal development I think the key isn't the idea itself, but the way the idea makes YOU think. The idea in itself is useless. What you do with the idea, how you interpret it and how it applies to you it what brings results or no results.

 

[ChaoSI]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

For some reason this struck me. Religions contradict one another. It is not possible to believe 2 at the same time. Atheism believes that there is no God. Hindus believe there are many God's. Christians believe Jesus is the son of God. Buddhism doesn't acknowledge either way if there is a God or not. You can only have one belief system in this regard. Now you may be an Agnostic and acknowledge that there could be a God. Every one of these beliefs is different.

Also with personal development I think the key isn't the idea itself, but the way the idea makes YOU think. The idea in itself is useless. What you do with the idea, how you interpret it and how it applies to you it what brings results or no results.

ah see i'm not saying that you adhere to two different schools of religion. I'm saying that without evidence to confirm particularly one or the other, say a miracle actually occurred (totally contrary and inexplicable by science) would that confirm the existence of Catholicism's god or Jesus as the son of God? Islam's Allah? or Jeudaism's? Or for Buddhism's idea of an intent to the universe? OR of an option unthought of as yet? Maybe it's NOT a god that created the miracle maybe it's a giant organism that somehow did it
It's not that one is 'right' because in the absence of specific evidence it is purely a matter of faith, the idea here is that ANY one, or combination of several could be true.
Acceptance of possibilty is what I'm suggesting and a human mind is capable of accepting possibility already as is evident by the fact that they accept something like religion in the first place! =)

LOVING this discussion

 

[AlterEgo]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

It's not that one is 'right' because in the absence of specific evidence it is purely a matter of faith, the idea here is that ANY one, or combination of several could be true.
Acceptance of possibilty is what I'm suggesting and a human mind is capable of accepting possibility already as is evident by the fact that they accept something like religion in the first place! =)

This is something that has always puzzled me. People can't seem to accept that any other religion other than their own could possibly be true. For someone to accept this possibility, they'd also have to accept the possibility that their own religion may be untrue, and this is something that I feel goes against human nature - they can't accept the possibility that they may be wrong.

This isn't just with religion, but with all aspects of life. People tend to think that their own opinion is always the correct one, often fiercely defending their view even if presented with evidence to the contrary. You see this in the stock market too - they can't believe their stock pick was wrong and continue holding as the stock keeps falling. The market has proven them wrong, but they can't accept that. They look for any reasons that support their own view, disregarding all other views. This is a very dangerous attitude to have in trading. If you can't quickly accept that you're wrong and get out, you're going to get very badly burnt.

 

[ChaoSI]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

This is something that has always puzzled me. People can't seem to accept that any other religion other than their own could possibly be true. For someone to accept this possibility, they'd also have to accept the possibility that their own religion may be untrue, and this is something that I feel goes against human nature - they can't accept the possibility that they may be wrong.

Good point, Question for you
if one is true do the others have to be false? (atheism excepted)

This isn't just with religion, but with all aspects of life. People tend to think that their own opinion is always the correct one, often fiercely defending their view even if presented with evidence to the contrary. You see this in the stock market too - they can't believe their stock pick was wrong and continue holding as the stock keeps falling. The market has proven them wrong, but they can't accept that. They look for any reasons that support their own view, disregarding all other views. This is a very dangerous attitude to have in trading. If you can't quickly accept that you're wrong and get out, you're going to get very badly burnt.

confirmation bias:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

[AlterEgo]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

Good point, Question for you
if one is true do the others have to be false? (atheism excepted)

In general, yes, I think so. However, having said that, there are many similarities between some religions, so some parts could still be regarded as true while other parts may have to be regarded as false.

confirmation bias:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Yes, so any unexplained 'miracle' that happens they accept as proof that their god exists, but they don't see any disaster that happens as proof that their god doesn't exist (ie. if their god was 'good' he wouldn't have allowed it to happen).

 

[Wysiwyg]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

This isn't just with religion, but with all aspects of life. People tend to think that their own opinion is always the correct one, often fiercely defending their view even if presented with evidence to the contrary.

Even with sensory realities such as ice and fire, people have different opinions. I assume this is because of varying sensory sensitivity and experience or just plain old dumb belief. Highly unlikely two minds will have the same recordings.

 

[ChaoSI]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

Even with sensory realities such as ice and fire, people have different opinions. I assume this is because of varying sensory sensitivity and experience or just plain old dumb belief. Highly unlikely two minds will have the same recordings.

because ultimately what we experience is purely unique and what is 'seen' and 'heard' is actually just stimulus that is interpreted by the brain. So, because with either stimulus we have to convert it from what is actually there (say, em waves for light and mechanical waves for sound) into an electrical signal which is then processed....

and the "realities" are just the consensus of their experience but just cos everybody else feels that way doesn't necessarily mean that it is right

In general, yes, I think so. However, having said that, there are many similarities between some religions, so some parts could still be regarded as true while other parts may have to be regarded as false.

but yeah so what i mean is, without the actual 'miracle do-er' coming out of hiding and saying "i'm the god of catholicism and this was my miracle" there's no way to be sure WHICH religious figure pulled it off.