Pokies the Moral Backbone of the Eastern States of Australia

[saiter]

I totally agree with you.

Some people become alcoholics, should we ban/regulate alcohol for everyone?

Ever heard of an RSA?

Some people drive cars recklessly and kill people, should we ban/regulate cars?

Speed cameras, red light cameras, school zones etc.

Some people abuse prescribed drugs, should prescribed drugs be banned/regulated?

I'm pretty sure the drugs you take are regulated by your GP/doctor, who is required by law to do so.

Some Australians behave like total morons overseas, should we ban/regulate who can go overseas?

The country that they're visiting regulates this.

For Gods sake, people should take responsibility for themselves and stop blaming others or machines. Boo hoo the machine made me do it, grow up.

Eh. I don't care much for this attitude. It's the same "tough guy" attitude that people use when they're trying to belittle those suffering from depression. The fact is, addiction, whether it be to drugs or pokies, is a serious issue that is recognised by health professionals. Addicts don't have the willpower to stop playing all of a sudden - if they did, they wouldn't be addicted.

 

[Julia]

I beg to differ, Julia:
The modern pokies are not simply "machines"; they're programmed to exploit people's desire for a better life. They're programmed to sell dreams - and take the sucker for every dollar he or she spends. And when today's money is gone, they (implicitly) say "come back tomorrow for another big chance!"

Being able to compare different countries' "cultures", I can categorically state that Australian's attitude to gambling is the most unhealthy and overpowering. Whether it's horses, scratchies, pokies - take your pick: The fact that it's always the little bloke gets fleeced and the shark taking the loot is well recognised, yet the little bloke still believes he's as "smart" as anybody and can beat the odds. Sadly, he doesn't even know what the odds are, and if you try and explain to him basic statistics, he'll switch off and tell you about a mate who knew somebody whose friend's mother-in-law won fifty Grand on a $2 scratchie - so you're wrong and take your statistics and shove it...

I don't disagree with you at all with regard to Australians' attitude to gambling (though I do hate generalising about a whole population).

However, you haven't at all addressed the point I was making which is:

"if it's the machine that is the problem, why does not everyone using them recreationally become addicted?"

Saiter: you make a good point about the reality of addiction. But removing the machines or access to them is not going to fundamentally address the reasons for the addiction. Even sustained psychotherapy over a long period of time will often fail in addictive disorders.

 

[basilio]

"if it's the machine that is the problem, why does not everyone using them recreationally become addicted?"

Saiter: you make a good point about the reality of addiction. But removing the machines or access to them is not going to fundamentally address the reasons for the addiction. Julia

I think you are being a bit simplistic Julia.

Poker machines and the surroundings are designed to be addictive. And they are obviously effective for many people. But most others recognise the dangers and can pull themselves out.

In the broader picture alcohol, tobacco, gambling, pornography, other drugs of addiction can also enslave people.

At some stage the question is raised as to the damage these addictions will cause individuals and the rest of society. At some stage governments (our representatives) decide the damage done is too great and attempts to regulate or ban these very profitable businesses. Naturally the business owners do their best to stop this regulation with whatever story they can muster. (Freedom of the individual, nanny state, its just a game.., what about ..some other addiction)

The discussion about pokies is that it really is extremely effective at creating addictions and the associated misery. Because governments are also getting their cut from the pie they are conflicted with how they deal with the issues.

___________________________________________________________________

Some of the best brains in the IT industry develop machines that can seduce users into parting with far more money than they ever intended. There is an excellent story in The New York Times that explores these skills

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/09/m...touch-screened-drew-carey.html?pagewanted=all

 

[Calliope]

In the broader picture alcohol, tobacco, gambling, pornography, other drugs of addiction can also enslave people.

What about those who are addicted to preaching garbage.

At some stage the question is raised as to the damage these addictions will cause individuals and the rest of society.

It bores them to death.

 

[basilio]

I thought the Chaser did a nice job on the poker machines story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5SibfWVh5M&feature=player_embedded

But this one on the banning of Russian roulette was far funnier !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bv5ay7_278&feature=related

 

[pixel]

I don't disagree with you at all with regard to Australians' attitude to gambling (though I do hate generalising about a whole population).

However, you haven't at all addressed the point I was making which is:

"if it's the machine that is the problem, why does not everyone using them recreationally become addicted?".

No generalisation intended, Julia

And I don't think that attribute applies to what I said. I'm not suggesting the entire Australian population was addicted to gambling; my observation is more that of a general cavalier attitude "hey, it's fun and a great tradition; don't knock it just because some can't handle it." (something I sense even in your argument.)

I think basilio summed it up: The IT and Psych industry is spending an extraordinary amount of money and effort to exploit the vulnerable. And that doesn't sit well with my "moral backbone". Nor can I find any ethical justification to call that kind of activity "entertainment".

As regards "generalisation", one final observation, if I may:
Through my involvement with underprivileged, mostly elderly people, I find indeed the incidence of "buying the dream" a problem of staggering proportions. Pensioners, who don't have two nickels to rub together, go hungry because they "had to" buy that lotto systems ticket for $115. Sadly, the less privileged - socially, financially, educationally - they are, the greater the tendency to skewed priorities.

 

[Bill M]

Ever heard of an RSA?

Doesn't work, we have far too much alcohol related violence in Australia, we see it on the news every night. I can drive into a bottle shop any day of the week and buy unlimited amounts of alcohol any time, so much for RSA.

Speed cameras, red light cameras, school zones etc.

Doesn't work, as soon as people drive through them they plant their foot again. They are also dismantling them in some countries as they have been proven not to have any effect. Night after night we see stories of car crashes on TV, lives lost, yep that ones working too.

I'm pretty sure the drugs you take are regulated by your GP/doctor, who is required by law to do so.

As I said people still abuse them, they take double/triple doses or use them to make their own cocktails. The Doctor prescribes them to be used as directed, the patient might have different ideas altogether.

The country that they're visiting regulates this.

That's nonsense and you know it. If you don't have a criminal record in Australia then you can travel anywhere you like. I am absolutely disgusted with the way some of my countrymen behave overseas, so much so I don't even want it to be known where I come from.

Eh. I don't care much for this attitude. It's the same "tough guy" attitude that people use when they're trying to belittle those suffering from depression. The fact is, addiction, whether it be to drugs or pokies, is a serious issue that is recognised by health professionals. Addicts don't have the willpower to stop playing all of a sudden - if they did, they wouldn't be addicted.

No "tough guy" here, I love everybody and belittle no one. What I get really upset about is more government intervention on my life. I gamble, I play the pokies once in a while, I bet on the horses. Why should I have any restrictions placed on me because of the few that can't control themselves? I am not an addict and it is my money after all and I have every right to enjoy it the way I want without any government interference.

 

[MrBurns]

Pokies are ok for recreation, but the industry doesn't make their money from the recreational player they make it from the addict.

If it was just recreational players there would be far less of them but no, they're everywhere.

They are aimed at people who will get hooked , thats their business model, charming isn't it.

If you doubt me take a stroll through Crown one day, take a packed lunch as it's a long walk from one end of the gaming room to the other, you will not see so many sad faces anywhere else in town.

Suck up the profits Crown shareholders and sleep well on the ruinied lives of your victims.

Cant stop it now, no one gets between the big end of town and a dollar.

 

[basilio]

Pokies are ok for recreation, but the industry doesn't make their money from the recreational player they make it from the addict.

If it was just recreational players there would be far less of them but no, they're everywhere.

They are aimed at people who will get hooked , thats their business model, charming isn't it.

If you doubt me take a stroll through Crown one day, take a packed lunch as it's a long walk from one end of the gaming room to the other, you will not see so many sad faces anywhere else in town.

Suck up the profits Crown shareholders and sleep well on the ruinied lives of your victims.

Cant stop it now, no one gets between the big end of town and a dollar.

Totally agree.

I think their earlier business model was selling (and addicting) opium to the Chinese and then starting a war because the Chinese government tried to stop it.

 

[moXJO]

Eh. I don't care much for this attitude. It's the same "tough guy" attitude that people use when they're trying to belittle those suffering from depression. The fact is, addiction, whether it be to drugs or pokies, is a serious issue that is recognised by health professionals. Addicts don't have the willpower to stop playing all of a sudden - if they did, they wouldn't be addicted.

I've known plenty of addicts/ depression sufferers
The point was is that there is plenty of help available to addicts. Educating the public about warning signs/ help available would be preferable. Otherwise you have to knock the horse’s races, online gambling, poker matches, cfds all on the head as well.
How about registering and banning addicts. I'm sure that's too hard

 

[Julia]

As I said people still abuse them, they take double/triple doses or use them to make their own cocktails. The Doctor prescribes them to be used as directed, the patient might have different ideas altogether.

Yes. In this case, it's not the drug that is of itself the problem, but rather the behaviour and psychological traits of the user.

. What I get really upset about is more government intervention on my life.

This is the whole point of my objection also. People need to be encouraged to take responsibility for making their own decisions. The more governments interfere in the personal choices of individuals the more likely it is we will have a nation of zombies, no longer able to think for themselves because they have become accustomed to having their decisions made for them.

As long as you tell or suggest to people that they are incapable of making valid decisions, you are encouraging that mindset. Treating Aboriginal people as victims is a good example. If they were more often told that they had great dignity as a race, and the potential to achieve every bit as much as non-indigenous people, they would at least have a chance of adopting such a positive mindset instead of passively accepting that they are hopeless.

So, if governments effectively say to the population either:

1. You are so hopeless at making the right choices about how you spend your money, we will step in and restrict your capacity to make those choices. This is for your own good.

or

2. A very small proportion of people who gamble have a psychological or psychiatric disorder which predisposes them to taking unreasonable and repeated risks with gambling on poker machines and to becoming addicted to using these devices. Our solution to the problem of this minority is to regulate everyone who also uses these devices and who has no problem whatsoever with so doing.

It's like fluoridating our water supply. Because the people who actually want to take fluoride or need to take it are too lazy or too irresponsible to buy fluoride tablets, the entire population is forced to consume a substance which many do not want in their bodies. This is morally wrong.

Upshot: their should be adequate taxpayer funded psychological assistance for all people with addictive disorders.
Then the government should get the hell out of people's private lives.

 

[pixel]

I'm as much for "small government" as anybody; but IMHO there is a wide gulf between regulating every citizen's life and the open slather of laissez-faire, which permits exploitation of the weak and endangers large sections of the Public.

There is also a wide gulf between enforcing traffic rules and limiting access to pokies. Or, if that's too far-fetched for your liking, compare cars versus jetskis and speedboats. Sure, they all can (and do) destroy lives. But it's the usefulness that makes a difference. Even the most responsible and careful driver can have a prang or even a fatal accident - but we accept that as the price Society has to pay for motorised traffic. Red light and speed cameras are only useless because they don't catch the hoons; they raise revenue from average drivers, who drive with the flow. The irresponsible few don't give a damn whether they lose their license: they just keep driving without. That's the area where government needs to be more assertive.

If speedboats, jetskis and similar pleasure craft ruin lives, we're taking a far more serious view on the needless damage: One person's recreational enjoyment is no excuse for a swimmer's or cayaker's death or injury. Hence nobody can argue for unrestricted use of waterways.

Pokies, on the other hand, do not serve any useful purpose other than moving coins from the poor to the wealthy. Their "recreational" use is on a par with marijuana, coke, or other "recreational" drugs. Yes, include alcohol and tobacco as well.
One solution: Regulate the sale of slot machines the way liquor stores are regulated. No drinking, smoking, snorting, gambling in public places; but what people do in the privacy of their own homes is none of Gov'mint's business.

As far as education and psychological assistance of those who need protection is concerned, that MIGHT work as an alternative solution. But I can't see why everybody's taxes should be spent on such programs. Make those, who profit and those, who get "recreational enjoyment" out of those devices, responsible for the costs of side effects. Car owners, boat owners, publicans... are all forced to take out liability insurance for damage their "enjoyment" may cause others. Let the family of a gambling addict be entitled to restitution and rehab of their loved one. Then I'd be all for it.

 

[MrBurns]

I'm as much for "small government" as anybody; but IMHO there is a wide gulf between regulating every citizen's life and the open slather of laissez-faire, which permits exploitation of the weak and endangers large sections of the Public.
.

Yes we are are a large mix of people, there has to be some retraints for the good of all, just need to be careful how they are applied.

We have plenty of laws now, you cant move your car 100 metres without being subject to multiple laws.

Stands to reason if there is something damaging society there needs to be retraints, like with drugs, excessive alcohol consumption, and increasingly with smoking and many other things.

No one's going to stop people gambling but the expoitation of a human weakness needs to be limited.

 

[Knobby22]

No one's going to stop people gambling but the expoitation of a human weakness needs to be limited.

Beautifully put.

 

[Julia]

I'm as much for "small government" as anybody; but IMHO there is a wide gulf between regulating every citizen's life and the open slather of laissez-faire, which permits exploitation of the weak and endangers large sections of the Public.

If you're going to carry that philosophy to its logical conclusion you would have to ban all advertising. It exploits the weak and endangers large sections of the public.

If speedboats, jetskis and similar pleasure craft ruin lives, we're taking a far more serious view on the needless damage: One person's recreational enjoyment is no excuse for a swimmer's or cayaker's death or injury. Hence nobody can argue for unrestricted use of waterways.

Agree entirely that we must have appropriate and enforceable laws for traffic whether on land or water.

Pokies, on the other hand, do not serve any useful purpose other than moving coins from the poor to the wealthy. Their "recreational" use is on a par with marijuana, coke, or other "recreational" drugs. Yes, include alcohol and tobacco as well.
One solution: Regulate the sale of slot machines the way liquor stores are regulated. No drinking, smoking, snorting, gambling in public places; but what people do in the privacy of their own homes is none of Gov'mint's business.

No drinking in public places? You want to close down bars and restaurants?
Oh god, what next!

Hah! The way the laws are going soon it will be a punishable offence for smokers to smoke in their homes. In some states it's now against the law to smoke in your own car apparently.
I hold no brief for tobacco companies but if a product is being legally sold for public consumption it's none of the government's business if someone wants to smoke in their own car.

As far as education and psychological assistance of those who need protection is concerned, that MIGHT work as an alternative solution.

I didn't mention education. There's more than enough 'education' out there already. Addiction is a whole different matter.

You are still avoiding the issue of the assertion that it's the poker machines per se that cause the addictive disorder.
You are effectively saying, are you not, that if you and I are exposed to these machines for a sustained period of time, we will become addicted to playing them?
I'm damn sure I wouldn't and I believe you could equally say the same.
This is my point.

I am, however, tired if trying to make it so will leave you and others who regard the instrument involved in addiction as the essential problem to your beliefs.
I wonder how many of you have actually had close associations with addicts of any kind. I suspect very few.

 

[pixel]

I wonder how many of you have actually had close associations with addicts of any kind. I suspect very few.

I have, Julia;
with far too many, and far too close.

btw I don't blame the machine per se - that's just a computer and a colour screen.
But I do blame the intentional programming of these computers for the sole purpose of creating addiction in as many people as possible. Ask any designer of those programs what "recreational" value or pleasure they built in, and the only honest answer you'll get is either "none" or a reference to the facilitator's "pleasure" in an effortlessly increasing bank account.

They don't target you specifically; if they find you're too stong to succumb, they'll even want you to shove off and leave the seat to a more impre$$ionable $sucker.

 

[MrBurns]

If you're going to carry that philosophy to its logical conclusion you would have to ban all advertising. It exploits the weak and endangers large sections of the public.

Something tells me you enjoy the pokies Julia

No problem but I do despise those who engineer, within the law, a machine designed to feed an addiction.

I dont thing advertising comes under the same banner, there are supposed to be standards for ads but I dont see much implemetation of that.

You can have a better society if you weed out the parasites that seek to take money from the vulnerable.

 

[Julia]

Something tells me you enjoy the pokies Julia

Good heavens, Burnsie, haven't I already made it clear that I regard them as mind numbingly boring? I only know what they even look like because for a while I was facilitating a support group for addicts which was held at the local RSL and to get to our meeting room I had to go through the den of noise and flashing lights, the unpleasantness of which was only exceeded by the smell of stale beer.

I have zero interest in gambling in any form but have no objection to others engaging in it if they find it fun. None of my business.

 

[MrBurns]

Good heavens, Burnsie, haven't I already made it clear .

Sorry Julia I should have read more I tend to skim over posts I had the impression you were sticking up for them (pokies).

 

[Julia]

Sorry Julia I should have read more I tend to skim over posts I had the impression you were sticking up for them (pokies).

No, just sticking up for the right of the individual to choose how they spend their own money.