Pokies the Moral Backbone of the Eastern States of Australia

[Calliope]

Talking about "moral backbone," there must be problem fornicators too. Perhaps Wilkie and Xenophon should lobby to limit the amount of money that can be spent on each visit to the brothel or the steambath. Perhaps 5 bucks per entry?

 

[IFocus]

Talking about "moral backbone," there must be problem fornicators too. Perhaps Wilkie and Xenophon should lobby to limit the amount of money that can be spent on each visit to the brothel or the steambath. Perhaps 5 bucks per entry?

Since each club and pub have mini casinos with pokies go the whole hog Just attach a brothel to each club / pug, then we can have permanent 1/2 price meals and beer.

As for if pre-commitment would work or not given the resistance by vested interests and their own studies it seems it would have a major impact.

The number that I find amazing is 40% of profit comes from problem gamblers, the damage that must be doing is mind boggling.

 

[moXJO]

Since each club and pub have mini casinos with pokies go the whole hog Just attach a brothel to each club / pug, then we can have permanent 1/2 price meals and beer.

.

Labor members wouldn't leave

 

[JTLP]

Not sure where you are coming from given Tim Costello has spent a live time being an advocate for the poor, starving and disadvantaged often against the establishment.

Julia summed it up nicely for me. I don't like people ramming these messages down my throat like they're sitting on some sort of golden throne. Les Twentyman is another one that springs to mind - but still despise Tim Costello more.

I've always pondered why we don't fix what's wrong in our backyard first? You can have a 'World Vision' but you may find your own inhabitants fall into that 'Vision' - now or in years to come.

How silly to describe Abbott's stand like this.
Can you provide proof that mandatory limits will eliminate problem gambling?
No one else has. Further, the proponents of this policy refuse to undertake a trial of the suggested policy.

Why? If they are so confident it will work, they have nothing to fear from demonstrating it before gazillions are spent in changing the machines.

What Tony Abbott actually said is that such a policy will not fix problem gambling.
I agree. I spent some considerable time facilitating a group of pokie addicts and as a result have a considerable insight into what motivates them and what doesn't.
Absolutely no indication that any mandatory commitment would do anything for them except make them laugh.

If you can criticise Tony Abbott's suggestion that individual gamblers would much more benefit from individual counselling in order to help them understand where the motivation to gamble came from and thence how to cope with it from a point of view of knowledge and experience, by all means do this.
But I'm pretty sure you won't be able to, so maybe just hold off on the mindless criticism.

The proposed policy exists purely because one Andrew Wilkie demanded it as a condition of allowing Gillard to govern. Absolutely not because of any conviction on Gillard's part on the issue, as is entirely obvious every time she talks about it.



Couldn't agree more.


Well, whoop de do. I'm all for people who care about the disadvantaged, but Tim Costello lacks the capacity to apply an objective view about most of what he goes on about. Couldn't be more different from his brother.

Pretty much everything you say I agree on. I may be a little right in my views and you seem a lot more balanced - but kudos for you for always hitting the right chord with me! Please continue Julia - love your objectivity and balance

 

[JTLP]

I think what needs to be sorted in this thread is 2 things.
1 - Nobody is denying that problem gamblers need help - nobody likes seeing people and their families livelihoods destroyed. The figures are quite high (if fact) from problem gamblers contributions to profits.

2 - The approach to deal with the issue is the contentious part. Gillard sold the Labor soul a long time ago for a moments glory - and now is paying the price by being held to a kings ransom by an 'independent'. I severely doubt that she believes Wilkie's policy has any merit - but she'd rather choke on her beliefs than stand true and potentially bring about the government's early demise.

Individual counselling may be appealing to the status quo but at least it is a tailored approach. How is filling out a form going to stop the problem gambler from going from venue to venue? Venue to internet? Internet to TAB? And who is to say that clubs won't let them "slip through" and play on because it's their local favourite "Jim" who tips a few extra into the coffers? I'm sure they'd be happy to feed him for free if he kept throwing money down.

I think people have a subconscious thought to help people going through counselling - as it appears the person is trying to beat their problem and outsiders want to provide support - sort of a win win to see the person pull through and knowing if you played a part you've managed to make a life better. A form just creates red tape and moves people from one gambling mechanic to another.

 

[Logique]

Yes fine words.

Prohibition didn't stop people drinking, but did encourage organized crime. Registered clubs at least keep the money in circulation (read taxable) and away from the black economy.

In the Australia of 2011, whatever the issue, it seems to demand a big government, expensive nanny state response, a lawyers picnic of new regulations, and quite often extra taxes.

Education and support is the answer, not monstering people, or clubs.

 

[IFocus]

Cut pasted relevant parts of Tim Costello's article if any one can dispute his claims feel free to do so coming from WA I just find it mind boggling how people argue the political debate rather than the issue.

Abbott has chosen to fill this space with his predict BS statement.

After a decade of research and a comprehensive report by the Productivity Commission, we know the answers to address why 40 per cent of all profits come from problem gambling.

After illicit drugs, pokies are the second greatest contributor to crime.

Some 86 per cent of problem gambling in Australia is from pokies.

Australia has the highest loss machines in the world - it is possible to lose over $1,200 an hour on modern machines.

The 2008 Productivity Commission into gambling estimated that problem gamblers lose an average of $21,000 a year gambling - and that the social cost of problem gambling is at least $4.7 billion per year.

Supporters of pokies reform are not interested in stopping people enjoying recreational gambling. The reforms currently proposed will barely impact on the majority of players.

While you may have missed it in the clubs' misinformation campaign, the Wilkie scheme does not require pre-commitment for lower loss machines, which have maximum bets of $1 per spin and have an average hourly loss of $120 and consequently do less damage.

Mandatory pre-commitment will only apply to those high-loss machines that are causing the most damage.

In Western Australia, the absence of pokies has not resulted in an increase in online gambling

In fact, WA has mainland Australia's highest recreation and sports participation rates. NSW in contrast has the lowest.

only 2.7 per cent of pokie profits go to supporting community and sporting groups.

WA does not depend on exploiting weak and vulnerable people to achieve community activity.

Mr Abbott's solution to this problem of "more counselling" is not supported by the evidence. The Productivity Commission found that only 15 per cent of problem gamblers seek help.

The recent polling of public support for pokies reform is encouraging. The more than 60 per cent public support, despite a $20 million misinformation campaign by Clubs Australia, shows that Australians know vested interest when they see it.

 

[Logique]

Mandatory pre-commitment doesn't go far enough.

How many times at the supermarket do we have two items in mind, but return with ten? Or, money burning a hole in our pockets, shop for a new car, or to buy a house, or sign up for a mobile phone account or electricity provider. Or shop at an online retailer, buy petrol at a service station.

No quite right of Mr Wilkie, we must be protected from our spendthrift ways by the government.

Once shown to work up at the club, mandatory pre-commitment could be expanded to cover all of our spending habits. Don't know how we managed before, without the government to protect us like this.

 

[IFocus]

I am sure most here would'nt dare read the Drum as clearly its all a left wing conspiracy but this article by Tom Cummings is revealing for those that think pokies is just a social night out.

Worth a read from an insiders view rather than those from the outside that really know nothing.


BTW went to the Perth casino Friday night fascinating watching the zombie like pokie players..............

No, my point is that the idea that gambling problems are a choice is nonsensical. You don't choose the addiction; it chooses you.

It's no secret that I have a history with poker machines, that my drive for reform is founded on my own experience of addiction... but I haven't played in years. Surely my story is proof that people make their own choices, control their own destiny?

Let me tell you something about that.

I didn't choose to become an addict. Sure, I chose to play poker machines but I didn't choose the consequences. There is a massive difference between recreation and addiction, and the sad truth is that one can lead to the other. Such was the case with me.

And I didn't choose to quit. Despite hating what I was doing, I simply couldn't stop. It took confrontation and exposure, more than once, before I could walk away from my addiction.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3867720.html

 

[basilio]

Tom Cummings writings offer an excellent insight the way poker machines systematically strip people of all their money/

One thoughtful piece follows the progress of "Gladys" a pensioner as she slowly burns her way through her pension cheque over a single day.

And she plays her 2c machine slowly and carefully...

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2733166.html

 

[McLovin]

Tom Cummings writings offer an excellent insight the way poker machines systematically strip people of all their money/

But at least once they've blown their cash they can get cheap food and drinks. It's about "giving back to the community".

 

[dutchie]

But at least once they've blown their cash they can get cheap food and drinks. It's about "giving back to the community".

Unfortunately its the people who don't play the pokies who get the cheap food, drinks and sports. The gamblers subsidise the non-gamblers (more fool them, I suppose).

The ones who have "blown their cash" don't have money to buy food no matter how cheap it is. The cost eventually goes back to the tax-payer.

 

[basilio]

Unfortunately its the people who don't play the pokies who get the cheap food, drinks and sports. The gamblers subsidise the non-gamblers (more fool them, I suppose).

The ones who have "blown their cash" don't have money to buy food no matter how cheap it is. The cost eventually goes back to the tax-payer.

I think Mclovin had has tongue firmly in his cheek with his observation about cheap food.

It all reminds of the sayings Mexican bandits had about the peasants they routinely raided.
"God would not have made them sheep if they were not meant to be shorn " *

Actually the bandits did have some sense of the long term sustainability of their raids.

1) They never totally devastated the villages. They always left enough behind to ensure survival, revival and future pickings
2) They rotated their raids to fit in with the first premise.

This of course doesn't happen with the modern bandits who manage to strip addicts of everything they, their families, their businesses possess. So the modern bandits need to have fresh addicts every year to feed their profits and offerings of cheap food to the community.

Ahh thats progress..

 

[Julia]

It's no secret that I have a history with poker machines, that my drive for reform is founded on my own experience of addiction... but I haven't played in years. Surely my story is proof that people make their own choices, control their own destiny?

Let me tell you something about that.

I didn't choose to become an addict. Sure, I chose to play poker machines but I didn't choose the consequences. There is a massive difference between recreation and addiction, and the sad truth is that one can lead to the other. Such was the case with me.

And I didn't choose to quit. Despite hating what I was doing, I simply couldn't stop. It took confrontation and exposure, more than once, before I could walk away from my addiction.

If it's the dreaded machines that are totally to blame for this person's addiction, why are all the other thousands of people who play them recreationally not also addicted?
Pretty silly, imo, to be blaming a machine for a personality trait or psychological difficulty.

(The above should not imply that I like anything about these machines. I find them breathtakingly boring, but I don't think they should be blamed for causing addiction.)

 

[moXJO]

I am sure most here would'nt dare read the Drum as clearly its all a left wing conspiracy but this article by Tom Cummings is revealing for those that think pokies is just a social night out.

Worth a read from an insiders view rather than those from the outside that really know nothing.


BTW went to the Perth casino Friday night fascinating watching the zombie like pokie players..............







http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3867720.html

Sounds like a lot of "wah wah it’s the pokies fault I'm addicted" to me, there are multiple sources to get help from. But oh no let’s bring in the 'I'm stupid' act. Honestly, if you’re a grown ass man learn to deal with your $hit.

 

[Bill M]

Sounds like a lot of "wah wah it’s the pokies fault I'm addicted" to me, there are multiple sources to get help from. But oh no let’s bring in the 'I'm stupid' act. Honestly, if you’re a grown ass man learn to deal with your $hit.

I totally agree with you.

Some people become alcoholics, should we ban/regulate alcohol for everyone?
Some people drive cars recklessly and kill people, should we ban/regulate cars?
Some people abuse prescribed drugs, should prescribed drugs be banned/regulated?
Some Australians behave like total morons overseas, should we ban/regulate who can go overseas?

For Gods sake, people should take responsibility for themselves and stop blaming others or machines. Boo hoo the machine made me do it, grow up.

 

[pixel]

If it's the dreaded machines that are totally to blame for this person's addiction, why are all the other thousands of people who play them recreationally not also addicted?
Pretty silly, imo, to be blaming a machine for a personality trait or psychological difficulty.

(The above should not imply that I like anything about these machines. I find them breathtakingly boring, but I don't think they should be blamed for causing addiction.)

I beg to differ, Julia:
The modern pokies are not simply "machines"; they're programmed to exploit people's desire for a better life. They're programmed to sell dreams - and take the sucker for every dollar he or she spends. And when today's money is gone, they (implicitly) say "come back tomorrow for another big chance!"

Being able to compare different countries' "cultures", I can categorically state that Australian's attitude to gambling is the most unhealthy and overpowering. Whether it's horses, scratchies, pokies - take your pick: The fact that it's always the little bloke gets fleeced and the shark taking the loot is well recognised, yet the little bloke still believes he's as "smart" as anybody and can beat the odds. Sadly, he doesn't even know what the odds are, and if you try and explain to him basic statistics, he'll switch off and tell you about a mate who knew somebody whose friend's mother-in-law won fifty Grand on a $2 scratchie - so you're wrong and take your statistics and shove it...

Given that Western Australia is relatively free of pokies, I must say I prefer it the way. We may have a higher participation rate in Lotto, but at least we know our Lotteries Commission ploughs $Millions back into grass roots sport and what passes for "cultural events."
(But even there I'm beginning to get annoyed by the subliminal advertising seeking higher revenue by glorifying the Lotto Life, One Powerball, and - most poisonous - Internet gambling.)

 

[IFocus]

Given that Western Australia is relatively free of pokies, I must say I prefer it the way. We may have a higher participation rate in Lotto, but at least we know our Lotteries Commission ploughs $Millions back into grass roots sport and what passes for "cultural events."
(But even there I'm beginning to get annoyed by the subliminal advertising seeking higher revenue by glorifying the Lotto Life, One Powerball, and - most poisonous - Internet gambling.)

Yet to meet anyone from WA who isn't gob smacked at the intrusion / normalization of pokies into the general walks of life across the eastern states.

Thank fully both sides of politics here in WA oppose pokies.

 

[IFocus]

Blow Up The Pokies - The Whitlams

Great song more ways that one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogj5ztTE0zw

 

[MrBurns]

Easy, don't issue any more machine licenses.

Have a reduction program of 10% per year for 5 years, that gets rid of half of them.

Take the board of Crown straight to jail, shut the place down and turn it into a backpackers hostel