Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

ORG - Origin Energy

So far as electricity generation (as distinct from retailing) is concerned, most of the generation that Origin owns is gas-fired. They also have a significant kerosene-fired plant in Queensland, and a bit from wind.

In addition to generation owned outright, they have contracted rights to the output of a major black coal-fired plant in NSW which accounts for around half their total generating capacity. Also they have contracts concerning a pumped storage hydro scheme, also in NSW.

An issue is that as the LNG plants in Qld come online, East Coast (Qld, NSW, ACT, Vic, Tas, SA) gas prices are expected to soar to export parity levels. That's good news for gas producers (including Origin) but to some extent profits from gas will come at the expense of losing profits from power generation. Even under the highest likely carbon price scenarios, gas-fired generation will no longer be competitive with coal.

Now, Origin isn't "paying" that price as such, since they produce gas as well as use it in power stations, but the power stations do effectively compete against LNG exports for the same gas. You can't burn it twice.

At present, there is reasonably heavy use of gas-fired (and hydro) generation whilst the carbon price is fixed at a higher level than is expected under an ETS (or if a Coalition government abolishes it altogether). But it's pretty well known in the industry that, no matter who wins the next election, we'll soon see a slump in hydro output (as the lakes dry up due to current over production) and gas-fired generation (as gas prices rise) and that that most of this will be offset by an increase in production from coal. All this falls into place over a fairly short timeframe in 2014.

I haven't worked out exactly what it means to Origin's bottom line, but the power stations they own will certainly be far less profitable in future than they are now. Turning cheap gas into expensive electricity today versus using expensive gas to produce electricity that must compete with cheaper coal (lower carbon price) tomorrow. That's a pretty big hit to the profitability of gas-fired power generation.

They also have that kero burning plant too. The AUD is dropping and the oil price is rising which means the fuel cost there will be going up too. Technically the plant could be converted to run on gas, but first they need a sufficient gas source (ie build a pipeline) and of course that only makes sense if the gas itself is cheap enough.

Complicating all this will be what contracts they have in place since I'm referring to market prices expected to prevail going forward for electricity (getting cheaper), gas (more expensive), carbon (cheaper) and oil (more expensive). There will be an impact of higher wholesale gas prices on their gas retailing business too, which also ends up competing against exports (LNG) for the same gas resource.

I would also not rule out the possibility that government steps in to regulate gas (plausible) or electricity (less likely) prices in the domestic market given the likely magnitude of price rises expected in the near future and the impact this will have on households, business, manufacturing etc. Needless to say, such a move won't boost the profits of the likes of Origin if it were to happen.

It's complex to work out what it all means to the bottom line but certainly the fundamentals are likely to shift in the energy business, with the emergence of Qld LNG exports being the primary driver.:2twocents
 
I don't quite follow your logic Smurf that as the projects come online and the domestic supply of gas increases that the price will go up as a result? Or were you saying that even when these lines come online the expected global price for gas is still projected to rise above current levels, making gas-fired power more expensive then it is now.
 
I don't quite follow your logic Smurf that as the projects come online and the domestic supply of gas increases that the price will go up as a result? Or were you saying that even when these lines come online the expected global price for gas is still projected to rise above current levels, making gas-fired power more expensive then it is now.
In short, Australian gas prices (eastern states) are a long way below international prices. Not a bit below but a lot lower.

So basically the LNG plants can afford to buy up everything they can get and this is pretty much what they are doing. We'll only have Australian gas prices at much below export parity if the gas producers ramp up production sufficiently to hold the price down. And if that were to happen, then quite likely we'll see another LNG plant built to take advantage of this cheap gas supply.

Looking at the politics of it all (especially NSW) and the general rumblings coming from manufacturing industry and even the big miners, the expectation is certainly for higher prices going forward. There have been various reports that buyers either can't get a long term gas contract at all, or at least that they can't get one at anything close to current prices.

It's like any commodity. Producers will only sell it locally at less than they can get by exporting it (less the cost of liquefaction and shipping which are admittedly quite high in the case of LNG) if they don't have a physical means of exporting. Historically that has been the case, there was no way to get gas from the eastern states to overseas, but now that is changing.

It's perhaps worth noting that WA gas prices have been very much higher than prices in the other states in recent years for precisely this reason. Now prices in the eastern states are set to rise also. Good news for gas producers but not good for those who consume it, power generation included.

In Origin's case it's probably still a net profit overall, but to some extent you can't just "add everything up and get the total" since it won't work that way going forward, at least not unless producers choose to glut the gas market and hold prices down that way (possible but I doubt it).
 
I don't quite follow your logic Smurf that as the projects come online and the domestic supply of gas increases that the price will go up as a result? Or were you saying that even when these lines come online the expected global price for gas is still projected to rise above current levels, making gas-fired power more expensive then it is now.

There was a discussion about this on ABC radio last week I think it was.

Apparently now that these projects have come online it means greater production which in turn means more money can be invested in plants that can produce sustainable export volumes to markets that are willing to pay big $$.

The downside now is that the local user is going to have to pay export prices.

No different that ordering fish in a restaurant in Port Lincoln, what you get has come from Vietnam or Thailand unless you are willing to pay upmarket Sydney or Tokyo restaurant prices as this is where the local produce is exported to.
 
Re: ORG - OMG!....

Hmmm, so when you guys say DYOR, you expect me to do more or better research than the big brokers? That can't be easy! Don't have time to do this full time! Should I just give all my hard earned over to an LIC or fund manager maybe? Had an FA once, he was unreliable as well....

Not at all mate. Just be aware that the recommendations from analysts are guidelines only and you should have a good reason to invest besides just seeing a buy rec on a website. My point with ENRON was that even consensus isn't always correct. Investing/trading yourself though is in my mind making the statement that you feel with your limited time can do better then guys who are doing it full-time for a living. If that's the case what's your edge? What makes you think you can outdo the professionals minus the fees? See how you go, track your performance and if you're outdoing the index then that's great. If you're outdoing managed funds minus fees that's even better. If not, then maybe a LIC isn't such a bad idea. For me it's still a hobby, although my performance is such that once I build capital maybe I can make it a full-time.
 
well, I stayed with it, despite the nay saying and made a handsome profit. Seeing a bit of a dip at present and was gonna ask if I should get out, but then remembered that no one here seems to know or care about this stock???
 
I hold, have done for years.

So long as the underlying business continues to face diminishing competition at one end, and booming demand for its' product (LNG) at the other it remains a goer in my opinion.

But then I invest primarily based on fundamentals and do consider this stock to be riskier than some, largely on account of the modest dividend yield (ie making a profit depends on the share price going up). :2twocents
 
Smurf, I have read a few news articles about the Russian plans to go into exporting LNG in a big way. Not sure if you know anything about this, or perhaps had something to share on it's potential impact to ORG if it comes to fruition? I'm not sure on the dynamics of ORG's future plans with it's LNG, but this would only effect their export operations, rather than their domestic operations, providing that their cost of extraction / production etc is lower than Russia's (plus whatever it costs to transport / ship it to Australia)?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/07/asia-russa-lng-idUSL6N0HX1TQ20131007
 
Origin goes west in $864m gas play
MATT CHAMBERS THE AUSTRALIAN JUNE 03, 2014 12:00AM

ORIGIN Energy is set to make an $US800 million ($864m) entry intro Western Australia’s offshore Browse Basin, agreeing to buy exploration ground owned by Karoon Gas in a marked shift of Origin’s LNG export growth plans away from Queensland’s coal-seam gas fields.
 
ORG appeared on today's Trinity Scan that I run daily over the ASX Market.
See "Pixel's Picks": https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29112

On a 9-month Daily chart, with Trinity Envelopes removed, I notice that the latest and steepest trendline has meanwhile been broken and an big overhead gap may well become an attractor.
For now, I'll wait if today's vwap - currently $11.02 - is about to hold. That, and some more volume tomorrow, would give me a buy signal for an early entry.

ORG pm 02-02-15.gif
 
Not much talk about this stock, but I think it is pretty good buy in recent times. It is diversified, top 20 ASX, the future LNG exports, I think they are a long way down the development path, probably will be online when the oil price recovers in the next year or so. I am assuming that oil price will crawl back over time.
Next company report will be interesting - towards end of month.
 
Not much talk about this stock, but I think it is pretty good buy in recent times. It is diversified, top 20 ASX, the future LNG exports, I think they are a long way down the development path, probably will be online when the oil price recovers in the next year or so. I am assuming that oil price will crawl back over time.
Next company report will be interesting - towards end of month.

I'm with you on that.
 
Price rising in anticipation.
This company is definitely undervalued. Once the new income stream from gas kicks in the PE ratio will look quite low.
 
First Gas has arrived. Commissioning of the plant now takes place over the next few months. They expect LNG mid year. Not sure when they will be the first shipping, but that will mark a huge milestone in the development and the for the company.
 
Down another 10% today, quite incredible when the mighty fall.

Is the 60+% fall in SP realistic? overdone and way to pessimistic or not pessimistic enough?, notice that the very sharp (recent) price decline on the 2 year chart simply cannot be maintained at that angle..something has to give.
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The last 2 months shows the largest volume since year 2008. I think this is stock absorption and the low will coincide with the end of this general market downer. Guess price low at an old low around $5.96. :2twocents
 
The news is out. 4-for-7 rights issues @ $4 :eek:

If you tell anyone at the beginning of the year, that you could buy ORG shares @ $4 you'd be considered somewhere between silly and insane. Yet here we are... $4.

Dividends to be cut to 20c per year from 50c previously.

Why on earth did they not raise capital at the half year report? The share price was ~$9-10 at the time. They should have suspended the dividend and raise at say $7 (30% discount). $2.5B would have cost them half the dilution.

Is the balance sheet fully repaired after this? Remember someone like Glencore who didn't raise enough. Market initially liked it then suddenly marked it down by 30% on an analysis report. Other than that, ORG on EV/EBITDA basis seems pretty cheap.

P.S. I am slightly amazed that all this debt-induced panic in mining companies hasn't hit FMG harder. I really thought it'd be down 20% yesterday...
 
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