Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Newbie Lessons - All your questions answered

Yay! I didn't lose the post!.

Ok so lets work through the formula for fixed fractional.

N = f * Equity/| Trade Risk |

So N is what we are looking for. If we use the 2% rule this then becomes our fixed fraction. Equity from our original premise is $100,000, and trade risk is the size of the stop. I usually use a 5% stop loss, but in my example above I gave 10% so lets use that.

N = 2% * $100,000/ 0.925 (10% of $9.25 in the above example)

N = $2,000/0.925

N = 2,162 shares (a trade value of ~ $20K)

Obviously as the position size is five times smaller than our original example, the potential loss is also five times smaller, $2,000 rather than $10,000. We've also limited our potential upside (we only purchased $20,000 worth instead of $100,000), but this is a function of any kind of risk management. We limited the potential gain to increase the certainty involved with the investing activity. That last bit is so important that I bolded it. We have increased the probability of success by managing the risk involved. Cannot be stressed enough how important this is. In my experience investing of any kind, be it trading or investing, is all about managing the risk involved and achieving consistency. Consistency and compounding result in exponential returns over time.

Ok so that is the basic principle behind fixed fractional. If you want more information or greater depth go read Ralph Vince's work I mentioned in the previous post.

Percent volatility position sizing

Percent volatility position sizing came from Van K. Tharp's book "Trade your way to financial freedom" - for the full monty on the subject go get the book, this will be a flyover. The theory is that the percent volatility position sizing method adjusts the risk according to the stock's volatility. Here's the formula.

PositionSize = (CE * %PE) / SV

Where CE is the current account equity (size of portfolio)
%PE is the percentage of portfolio equity to risk per trade.
SV is the stock's volatility (10-day EMA of the true range).

Lets do another example.
(CE) is $100,000,
the percent of portfolio equity we want to risk (%PE) is 2%,
BHP's true range volatility on our original date is....$0.57, then the result is:

($100,000 * 2%) / $0.57 = 3508 shares (a position size of $32,449)

The trap of both of the methods described is that if your portfolio is $100,000 and you are not using any form of leverage, then the number of trades you can have open at any one time is severely reduced. Three stocks with the percent volatility and five with the fixed fractional. In this circumstance the use of a leveraged instrument such as a CFD enables a more efficient use of the position sizing methods, because the calculation is based on your equity, not the size of the portfolio with margin included.

If you hate the concept of leverage then you can avoid the concentrated portfolio problem by dividing the $100,000 of your own equity into allotments. You would use the same formula to determine the position size. Using the percent volatility example and a $10,000 allotment: ($10,000 x 2%) / 0.57 = 350 BHP Shares.

Optimal F position sizing

Optimal F is a step beyond fixed fractional. It uses a classic formula called Kelly's formula, which provides the fixed fraction that maximizes the geometric growth rate for a series of trades where all the losses are one size and all the wins are another size. How often do you think that this occurs when dealing with the market? Here's Kelly's formula:

f = ((B + 1) * P - 1)/B

where B is the win/loss ratio, and P is the percentage of winning trades.

Optimal f position sizing simply extends the Kelly formula so that the wins and losses can be different sizes. Optimal f calculates the fixed fraction that maximizes the rate of return for a given series of trades. It's important to actually have a system that has a positive win/loss ratio before using an Optimal F or Kelly position sizing method.

The trap for Kelly's formula and Optimal f is that no two trade series are the same (where the risk/reward profile remains constant). This can result in a significant drawdown on the account size when a series of losses occurs. The formula is based on win or lose and no intermediate or Gaussian outcome. Don't get me wrong, Kelly and Optimal F have their place in a well designed system, it's just that fat tail events and market corrections tend to kick sand in their faces (as most chaotic events will do).

Sir O's fully sick position sizing method

Ok this is something I do, this will not be for everyone, nor will it work with everything and in all markets. Like Optimal f or Kelly this position sizing will bitch slap you in times of chaos. It's a sort of a combined approach that formed after reading a whole bunch of what others do. It applies to a specific kind of equity investment and works best in the mid tier space. I also use this in a leveraged environment where I don't have to be concerned about portfolio concentration.

Step 1
I use a Fixed Fractional to determine the base number of shares. In the BHP example above that would be 2162 shares.

Step 2
The fixed fractional calculation gives me a trade risk value. I then seek to adjust the number of shares in the position taking into account the variance of the stock to the market. IE. Share price volatility compared to market volatility. Share Price volatility is the daily change of the stock over the last 24 periods which is exponentially averaged. Market volatility is the daily change of the XAO over the last 24 periods exponentially averaged. Essentially what I'm doing is replicating a beta coefficient comparison over a short-term time frame with the nearer term data set given preference.

Step 3
Where the Beta is positive and the position is long, the above beta comparison expressed as a percentage will be applied to the position as an addition. IE Share has a positive beta to market of +0.124 BHP position would then be... (2162 shares * 12.4%) = 2430 shares. (position size increased from $19,998.50 to $22,477.5)

Where the Beta is positive and the position is short, the beta will be applied as a subtraction. IE 2162 - 268 = 1894 share (position size now 17519.50)

Where the Beta is negative and the position is short, once again the beta is an addition.

Where the beta is positive and the position is short, once again the beta is a subtraction.

The reason I do this is so that when I'm trading in a strongly positive or negative position I'm aligned to the overall market's direction. The model is just pants trying to trade neutral trends.

What does everyone else use?

Cheers

Sir O
 
No offence Boggo.

Joe would you please remove post #580 (boggo's post on the previous page between parts 1 and two) so that the two posts appear on the same page and straight after each other.

Cheers

Sir O
 
Step 2
The fixed fractional calculation gives me a trade risk value. I then seek to adjust the number of shares in the position taking into account the variance of the stock to the market. IE. Share price volatility compared to market volatility. Share Price volatility is the daily change of the stock over the last 24 periods which is exponentially averaged. Market volatility is the daily change of the XAO over the last 24 periods exponentially averaged. Essentially what I'm doing is replicating a beta coefficient comparison over a short-term time frame with the nearer term data set given preference.

Step 3
Where the Beta is positive and the position is long, the above beta comparison expressed as a percentage will be applied to the position as an addition. IE Share has a positive beta to market of +0.124 BHP position would then be... (2162 shares * 12.4%) = 2430 shares. (position size increased from $19,998.50 to $22,477.5)

Where the Beta is positive and the position is short, the beta will be applied as a subtraction. IE 2162 - 268 = 1894 share (position size now 17519.50)

Where the Beta is negative and the position is short, once again the beta is an addition.

Where the beta is positive and the position is short, once again the beta is a subtraction.

The reason I do this is so that when I'm trading in a strongly positive or negative position I'm aligned to the overall market's direction. The model is just pants trying to trade neutral trends.

What does everyone else use?

Cheers

Sir O

Not sure I fully understand the benefit or application of this beta adjustment.

If it is not too much trouble, can you explain using a couple of examples?

E.g. Say go long on MAH today (this has vastly underperformed the market of late), vs say going short on CBA (which has outperformed the market)?

Thanks.
 
No offence Boggo.

Joe would you please remove post #580 (boggo's post on the previous page between parts 1 and two) so that the two posts appear on the same page and straight after each other.

Cheers

Sir O

Good idea, it would flow on then.
 
Not sure I fully understand the benefit or application of this beta adjustment.

If it is not too much trouble, can you explain using a couple of examples?

E.g. Say go long on MAH today (this has vastly underperformed the market of late), vs say going short on CBA (which has outperformed the market)?

Thanks.

Thanks SKC I wondered how long till someone popped up with a question about this. I kinda skipped a lot of detail in step two. I don't want to give everything away. Remember this is mid tier space, so that's a no on the CBA and MAH would only possibly squeak in (I'd have to check the Mcap). The reason why it's mid tier is that the actions of the institutions on the top market capitalisation stocks (where they have the liquidity to play around) tends to bring these stocks much closer to a market level of performance. They tend to follow the market pretty closely because they make up the majority of the market by capitalisation. It's pointless in doing such a position method, you're better off just sticking to fixed frac or optimal f. It's not worth the additional computing time. I merely used BHP because I wanted to extend the example all the way through for illustrative purposes. Remember that essentially it's just a fixed frac that's been tweaked a bit. All the analysis that goes into the selection process is happening.

What I'm doing is not technically using a Beta coefficient like would be displayed on Google Finance or the like. It's a proxy, and it's core is volatility just like Beta. It's also a directional proxy because I'm the one that is doing the calculations for it. I didn't want to get into too much detail, more give the newbies the hints of the things that were possible to tweak things. But here's Sir O's fully sick position method in a bit more detail.

Bit more detail

Beta is calculated using regression analysis, and it measures how a stock moves in relation to swings in the market. A beta of 1 indicates that the security's price will move with the market. Most of the ASX20 stocks vary insignificantly from a beta of 1. A beta of less than 1 means that the security will be less volatile than the market. A beta of greater than 1 indicates that the security's price will be more volatile than the market. For example, if a stock's beta is 1.2, it's theoretically 20% more volatile than the market.

This beta comparison theory is all well and good but it has a major flaw...that of correlation. It's assuming that one day is independent of the next and has no relationship to the previous day. Frankly I think that is just plain bulldust. When I look at the data thrown up by my system scans in this area (IE I don't want to look at 300+ shares only a few a day) I'm only dealing with a months worth of data or 22 trade days. A beta coefficient is usually built over much longer term timeframes.

By selecting a months worth of data and making it exponentially weighted, I'm working out the near term correlation of the share price to the market. If it was a beta coefficient my positional sizing would be backwards. IE a beta of 1.124 would have indicated that BHP is more volatile than the market by 12.4% and this has no hint of directionality. More volatile, up or down. see?

What I want to know is whether the ups (positives in my system) are different from the downs (negatives in my system). I am kinda skipping things here deliberately but you should get the idea. I just call it beta comparison in my system because that is easier to write than comparative uni-directionality and neutral-volitility tester... and the abbreviation is rude. When the share market is up I want to see (for a long position) a positive number (confirmation). If I see a negative number the system will restrict the position sizing. Similar in reverse. The overall effect however is relatively minor and only of interest as how much more I can squeeze out of a system.

Clear?

Cheers

Sir O
 
I've used Fixed capital amounts to great effect.
EG
$10000 parcels with X% initial stop risk.
So with a $100k account and a 10% stop on purchase price that's effectively 1% of capital.
But each trade is fixed at that or some other x value.
 
What I want to know is whether the ups (positives in my system) are different from the downs (negatives in my system). I am kinda skipping things here deliberately but you should get the idea. I just call it beta comparison in my system because that is easier to write than comparative uni-directionality and neutral-volitility tester... and the abbreviation is rude. When the share market is up I want to see (for a long position) a positive number (confirmation). If I see a negative number the system will restrict the position sizing. Similar in reverse. The overall effect however is relatively minor and only of interest as how much more I can squeeze out of a system.

Thanks for the response. I am not after the exact formula of the adjustment factor, but more the theory why you'd use one.

You are basically saying, if a stock is going strong, and in fact stronger than the overall market, you put on a somewhat larger position size to capitalise on the opportunity. Is that correct?

I don't disagree with the method, althoguh I would offer an opposite perspective - i.e. those stocks that have run hard are more likely to retrace, while those laggards (esp in the same sector) may actually have a delayed run. But this just comes from me trading pairs a lot.

Anyway, will leave you to your thread.
 
Thanks for the post Sir O.

A question: What do you consider to be an optimal portfolio size to begin trading with? Obviously if the portfolio is too small and you apply sound position sizing you run the risk of your gains being eaten up by brokerage...

Also, if we are risking 2% of our capital in the market, even if a stop-loss is in place, there must still be some risk of complete ruin. If the market completely tanks the price could fall below our stop-loss value and hence lose more than our inital 2%... How do we "position size" the number of trades we're in at any one time to limit this risk?
 
Thanks for the post Sir O.

A question: What do you consider to be an optimal portfolio size to begin trading with? Obviously if the portfolio is too small and you apply sound position sizing you run the risk of your gains being eaten up by brokerage...

Also, if we are risking 2% of our capital in the market, even if a stop-loss is in place, there must still be some risk of complete ruin. If the market completely tanks the price could fall below our stop-loss value and hence lose more than our inital 2%... How do we "position size" the number of trades we're in at any one time to limit this risk?
Hi matth1,

The portfolio size is dependant on your financial situation and your appetite for risk.
No-one can tell you (I believe)!

There is an excellent thread by nioka "Investing my first $1500"
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19955

With regard to your fear of the market tanking:
The probability that all your open trades would fall through your stops simultaneously, is small.
 
With regard to your fear of the market tanking:
The probability that all your open trades would fall through your stops simultaneously, is small.

Small, but real. Size your portfolio so that if it is realised you are not screwed.
 
Thanks for the response. I am not after the exact formula of the adjustment factor, but more the theory why you'd use one.

You are basically saying, if a stock is going strong, and in fact stronger than the overall market, you put on a somewhat larger position size to capitalise on the opportunity. Is that correct?

I don't disagree with the method, althoguh I would offer an opposite perspective - i.e. those stocks that have run hard are more likely to retrace, while those laggards (esp in the same sector) may actually have a delayed run. But this just comes from me trading pairs a lot.

Anyway, will leave you to your thread.

Close but not quite right. If the market is going strong as you put it then the near term nature of the data set will indicate a larger position size. It is built on a system that try's to capture breakout movements in mid tier stocks the initial break is highlighted in the market scan and I just jump on the newly formed trend.

Clear?

Cheers

Sir O
 
Thanks for the post Sir O.

A question: What do you consider to be an optimal portfolio size to begin trading with? Obviously if the portfolio is too small and you apply sound position sizing you run the risk of your gains being eaten up by brokerage...

Also, if we are risking 2% of our capital in the market, even if a stop-loss is in place, there must still be some risk of complete ruin. If the market completely tanks the price could fall below our stop-loss value and hence lose more than our inital 2%... How do we "position size" the number of trades we're in at any one time to limit this risk?

That's somewhat of a personal decision as burglar indicated Matt. I have known traders who started with 10k in a system and used a positional sizing method to increase their success rate. Personally? When I test a system I do so starting with paper trading on historic data, then paper trade with no funds and finally live trade with a small dollar figure before putting real funds into it. My live testing accounts are normally the 25k mark if I am using leverage so I would go with the amount.

In terms of risk of ruin if the market tanks, sure gaps past the stop happen. Chaos comes along every now and then and kicks our careful plans and strategies in the balls. What position sizing is intended to do is increase our probability of success. Control is an illusion so it could happen. ( although the probability is fairly low)

This is where asset allocation comes in. It is a bit of a generalization but most traders I know don't trade with everything they have, only a portion. I tend to keep the allocation of funds a mix of passive assets like blue chip shares and property with a small portion allocated to trading. Once again I have limited my return to increase the certainty of my outcomes.

Cheers

Sir O
 
The portfolio size is dependant on your financial situation and your appetite for risk.
No-one can tell you (I believe)!

That's somewhat of a personal decision as burglar indicated Matt.

Fair enough.

With regard to your fear of the market tanking:
The probability that all your open trades would fall through your stops simultaneously, is small.

I wouldn't say fear, but if it is a possibility we should at least consider the risk and try to plan for it accordingly (if it's small, maybe we can accept it).

In terms of risk of ruin if the market tanks, sure gaps past the stop happen. Chaos comes along every now and then and kicks our careful plans and strategies in the balls. What position sizing is intended to do is increase our probability of success. Control is an illusion so it could happen. ( although the probability is fairly low)

This is where asset allocation comes in. It is a bit of a generalization but most traders I know don't trade with everything they have, only a portion. I tend to keep the allocation of funds a mix of passive assets like blue chip shares and property with a small portion allocated to trading. Once again I have limited my return to increase the certainty of my outcomes.

Cheers

Sir O

Not putting all the eggs in one basket seems fairly logical. Are there any "rules of thumb", such as never having more than a third of your capital at risk at any one time?

Or is this overly risk-averse? (I guess this again comes back to an individuals risk profile)
 
Fair enough.



I wouldn't say fear, but if it is a possibility we should at least consider the risk and try to plan for it accordingly (if it's small, maybe we can accept it).



Not putting all the eggs in one basket seems fairly logical. Are there any "rules of thumb", such as never having more than a third of your capital at risk at any one time?

Or is this overly risk-averse? (I guess this again comes back to an individuals risk profile)

Once again it's a bit personal Matt and I would hate to be seen to giving you advice without knowing your risk profile. The mentor I learnt a lot of this stuff from had a very strange asset allocation as far as I was concerned at the time. He was making a killing in the futures markets. The was his preferred method of trading and he was damn good at it. Eight months out of twelve he'd pull 60% return and the other four months he'd drawdown about 20% of his account. His account had the potential to compound enormously. Yet every quarter he'd take funds from his trading account and restore the account to about 150k. He'd go buy houses or blue chips or classic sports cars. As you can imagine 150k was a drop in the bucket for this guy. When I asked him why he did that it's because he'd had to declare bankruptcy after the 87 crash wiped him out. He'd had too much leverage and had needed to start again. He was happy he could put his head to the pillow at night with only a relatively small amount at risk.

That's an extreme example but it does highlight the issues around the personal nature of risk. It's also what fin planners do. Attempt to marry a clients risk profile with an asset allocation. (problem is that many of them only stick to the share market)

Cheers

Sir O
 
Once again it's a bit personal Matt and I would hate to be seen to giving you advice without knowing your risk profile.

No probs, merely wondering is all. I've not yet thought much about this area so just trying to get a feel for what I need to learn about.

Thanks again.
 
EDIT: Thanks for all the useful information so far!!

In a related, but off the current topic, question; could someone please explain how to calculate ownership delta in regard to getting franking credits?

I know that in order to get the franking credits you have to hold the shares for a minimum of 45 days with a minimum delta of 0.3 on those days, but how do I calculate this?

Could you use an example with say a share for $15, buying a put option at $13 and/or selling a call option at $16?

Many thanks
Andy :D
 
EDIT: Thanks for all the useful information so far!!

In a related, but off the current topic, question; could someone please explain how to calculate ownership delta in regard to getting franking credits?

I know that in order to get the franking credits you have to hold the shares for a minimum of 45 days with a minimum delta of 0.3 on those days, but how do I calculate this?

Could you use an example with say a share for $15, buying a put option at $13 and/or selling a call option at $16?

Many thanks
Andy :D

Hi Andy and welcome.

That's kind of a specific question for the newbie thread and I don't play around much with options. http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.aspx?doc=/content/18898.

In terms of risk of ownership you need a minimum 30% as defined in the above link. I assume that you don't meet the small investor requirements and will accrue greater than 5k of franking credits over 12 months.

If you are controlling your risk with an option strategy as you describe I could work out the formula but don't have one to hand. (and I'm posting using the phone) I'd ask the question in the derivatives section of the forum.

Cheers

Sir O
 
Hi Andy and welcome.

That's kind of a specific question for the newbie thread and I don't play around much with options. http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.aspx?doc=/content/18898.

In terms of risk of ownership you need a minimum 30% as defined in the above link. I assume that you don't meet the small investor requirements and will accrue greater than 5k of franking credits over 12 months.

If you are controlling your risk with an option strategy as you describe I could work out the formula but don't have one to hand. (and I'm posting using the phone) I'd ask the question in the derivatives section of the forum.

Cheers

Sir O

Hi Sir O,

Thanks for your reply. I'll go ask the same question over in the derivatives section and post back with the answer for those interested.

That link to the ATO didnt work, what was it pointing to?

Also, I wont be accruing more than 5k worth of franking credits this (or probably next financial year), want to get my understanding of it under control before I get in that deep. How does that change my situation?

Thanks
Andy
 
Huh?

Lets try it again

http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.aspx?doc=/content/18898.htm

Cheers

Sir O

Working now

Also, I wont be accruing more than 5k worth of franking credits this (or probably next financial year), want to get my understanding of it under control before I get in that deep. How does that change my situation?

Then neither the 45 day holding rule, nor the ownership rules associated with using derivatives to limit your risk apply to you.
 
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