NBN Rollout Scrapped

Smurf1976 · 1 August 2012

sptrawler said:
Does it all work on the premise, that the revenues generated exceeds the interest cost of the bonds.

It's the same logic which underpinned, amongst other things, state run utilities for most of the 20th Century.

Borrow the money, build the asset, repay the loans over the life of the asset. Repeat the cycle when something else needs to be built.

There isn't supposed to be a profit as such, the aim being to provide a public service "at cost".

It worked fine for decades until Thatcher-inspired politicians and accountants decided that these self running entities actually had an "owner" and that this "owner" was government. They then ramped up the prices and, in most cases, sold off the assets. Then prices went up some more, and up again, and up again to the point we see today where it's become a significant issue for many.

I just see a broader context here of the wheel turning. The likes of AGL are dropping "outsourcing" in favour of building capability and resources "in house" simply because doing so is cheaper (as anyone who ever worked in such a place could have told them years ago). Now we see a government proposing a return to the old way of funding what is, effectively, a nationalisation of telecommunications infrastructure.

It's all cyclical I suppose, but there seems to be a slowly growing push to reverse the "reforms" of the 90's at the moment so far as things like public utilities etc are concerned. I'm surprised to see a national government actually embracing it so soon however, I thought it would be a few years until we got to that point.

It's a sign of the general economic conditions I think. The old model, and state run utilities etc themselves, largely emerged out of previous hard times (mostly WW1 and the Depression). In all this talk of an NBN we are ultimately discussing what amounts to a substantial nationalisation of Telstra. That's a huge departure from the "privatisation" mantra of the 90's and 00's.

MrBurns · 1 August 2012

I wish it would bre done ASAP and on budget but this Govt is more concerned about political matters and Conroy is borderline simple so my main objection is who's trying to implement this.
Wish they'd outsourced it to Google.

For the good of implemntation only, at least the damn thing would work.

sptrawler · 1 August 2012

Smurf1976 said:
It's the same logic which underpinned, amongst other things, state run utilities for most of the 20th Century.

Borrow the money, build the asset, repay the loans over the life of the asset. Repeat the cycle when something else needs to be built.

There isn't supposed to be a profit as such, the aim being to provide a public service "at cost".

It worked fine for decades until Thatcher-inspired politicians and accountants decided that these self running entities actually had an "owner" and that this "owner" was government. They then ramped up the prices and, in most cases, sold off the assets. Then prices went up some more, and up again, and up again to the point we see today where it's become a significant issue for many.

I just see a broader context here of the wheel turning. The likes of AGL are dropping "outsourcing" in favour of building capability and resources "in house" simply because doing so is cheaper (as anyone who ever worked in such a place could have told them years ago). Now we see a government proposing a return to the old way of funding what is, effectively, a nationalisation of telecommunications infrastructure.

It's all cyclical I suppose, but there seems to be a slowly growing push to reverse the "reforms" of the 90's at the moment so far as things like public utilities etc are concerned. I'm surprised to see a national government actually embracing it so soon however, I thought it would be a few years until we got to that point.

It's a sign of the general economic conditions I think. The old model, and state run utilities etc themselves, largely emerged out of previous hard times (mostly WW1 and the Depression). In all this talk of an NBN we are ultimately discussing what amounts to a substantial nationalisation of Telstra. That's a huge departure from the "privatisation" mantra of the 90's and 00's.

You are spot on smurph, it is just like this new mantra, where it is of the utmost importance that young people be given free reign to find themselves.
Well I think the olympic results are showing the benefit of self management as opposed to a structured regime.
Not that I give a rats either way, but to watch a kid beat herself up over being on the internet(tweet and facebook) rather than focus on her future, is a sad indictment of poor management.
It just shows what a sad state we are in, and what are we doing, spending $40billion on the NBN, so the kids can do their heads in faster.
Someone needs to sit back and say, humans don't need more reasons to sit on their ar$e and do nothing.
For some reason, people want bling speed internet, probably so they don't have to get up from the keyboard at all.
Then all they need is someone to carry the pizza from the front door to the coffee table. Then they won't miss out on a kill or be killed moment in online game.
I just think someone needs to call a timeout and stop encouraging people to sit on their ar$e.
Computers are great in their place but they are the greatest time wasters ever invented.

MrBurns · 1 August 2012

sptrawler said:
You are spot on smurph, it is just like this new mantra, where it is of the utmost importance that young people be given free reign to find themselves.
Well I think the olympic results are showing the benefit of self management as opposed to a structured regime.
Not that I give a rats either way, but to watch a kid beat herself up over being on the internet(tweet and facebook) rather than focus on her future, is a sad indictment of poor management.
It just shows what a sad state we are in, and what are we doing, spending $40billion on the NBN, so the kids can do their heads in faster.
Someone needs to sit back and say, humans don't need more reasons to sit on their ar$e and do nothing.
For some reason, people want bling speed internet, probably so they don't have to get up from the keyboard at all.
Then all they need is someone to carry the pizza from the front door to the coffee table. Then they won't miss out on a kill or be killed moment in online game.
I just think someone needs to call a timeout and stop encouraging people to sit on their ar$e.
Computers are great in their place but they are the greatest time wasters ever invented.

All very true but unfortunately I think this will all get worse not better.

The world has changed and not all for the better, "progress"doesnt factor in what's best for people.

sptrawler · 1 August 2012

MrBurns said:
All very true but unfortunately I think this will all get worse not better.

The world has changed and not all for the better, "progress"doesnt factor in what's best for people.

I agree with you MrBurns, my guess is within 10 years we won't even compete in the olympics.
But hallelujah, we will be able to watch any crap we want on the internet, without the wait time, yeh.
Then we will be able to self diagnose type two diabetes. The computer will be able to tell you to switch off and drag your fat ar$e outside for some excercise.
In the end the government will probably have to impose an internet tax, because of the health problems associated with sitting on your ar$e in front of the computer. Much like the sugested junk food tax.

MrBurns · 2 August 2012

sptrawler said:
I agree with you MrBurns, my guess is within 10 years we won't even compete in the olympics.
But hallelujah, we will be able to watch any crap we want on the internet, without the wait time, yeh.
Then we will be able to self diagnose type two diabetes. The computer will be able to tell you to switch off and drag your fat ar$e outside for some excercise.
In the end the government will probably have to impose an internet tax, because of the health problems associated with sitting on your ar$e in front of the computer. Much like the sugested junk food tax.

We are increasingly controlled by the media, Govts are controlled by the media, and look at it ....Ch 9 a station dedicated to BS and Ch 7 no better, their "current affairs" shows are disgraceful.
Their programming and reality shows are disgusting and thats what our kids watch.

The ABC and SBS should be the only stations allowed on free to air.

sptrawler · 2 August 2012

MrBurns said:
We are increasingly controlled by the media, Govts are controlled by the media, and look at it ....Ch 9 a station dedicated to BS and Ch 7 no better, their "current affairs" shows are disgraceful.
Their programming and reality shows are disgusting and thats what our kids watch.

The ABC and SBS should be the only stations allowed on free to air.

It won't be free to air in a few years it will all come through the internet via the governments filter.:1zhelp:
Then not only will the government know what you are watching, you will be paying to watch "free to air"

NBNMyths · 2 August 2012

noco said:
According to the latest reports, the NBN is well behind schedule and way over budget.

The target of connections before the 2013 election will only be 25% complete. So what will be Conroy's excuse? He certainly won't admit incompetence. He can't blame Abbott.

I cannot see it's completion by 2020 at this rate and what about the cost?

As someone else commented, "it will be redundant before it is finished".

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...nbn_threatening_to_be_another_labor_disaster/

The Andrew Bolt blog? Seriously?

Well, there's an accurate and objective source. I may as well call it quits now then.

NBNMyths · 2 August 2012

MrBurns said:
Thats BS too, what millenium do you think they'll ditch copper ?

I think you need to get a clue yourself, you make yoo many assumptions out of arrogance or ignorance or a mixture of both.

The copper will be progressively turned off in the NBN fibre footprint one area at a time, about 18 months after the NBN is activated in that area. If it exists, then it will remain active in the NBN wireless and satellite areas.

Calliope · 2 August 2012

MrBurns said:
Thats BS too, what millenium do you think they'll ditch copper ?

I think you need to get a clue yourself, you make yoo many assumptions out of arrogance or ignorance or a mixture of both.

NBNMyths may be arrogant but he is not ignorant. To find out more about him just Google "Jamie Benaud." You will be surprised at how he generously finds the time to put us on the right track with his spin.

MrBurns · 2 August 2012

Calliope said:
NBNMyths may be arrogant but he is not ignorant. To find out more about him just Google "Jamie Benaud." You will be surprised at how he generously finds the time to put us on the right track with his spin.

Richie's son ?

Then I retract everything previously said and will let what happens with the NBN speak for itself.

NBNMyths · 2 August 2012

Calliope said:
NBNMyths may be arrogant but he is not ignorant. To find out more about him just Google "Jamie Benaud." You will be surprised at how he generously finds the time to put us on the right track with his spin.

I'm a generous sort of guy!

MrBurns said:
Richie's son ?

Then I retract everything previously said and will let what happens with the NBN speak for itself.

Nephew, actually. The sporting gene skipped a generation though.

MrBurns · 2 August 2012

NBNMyths said:
Nephew, actually. The sporting gene skipped a generation though.

Well out of respect for your uncle I wont be arguing with you any more, when it's all said and done if it wasnt Gillard trying to do this I might even support it but I just think it's doomed under Labor and Conroy.

Smurf1976 · 2 August 2012

NBNMyths said:
The Andrew Bolt blog? Seriously?

Well, there's an accurate and objective source. I may as well call it quits now then.

It may be somewhat biased, but at least it does discuss actual current affairs.

Note to those under about 30 years old - current affairs, and anything shown on the TV program "A Current Affair" are entirely different things. Disputes between neighbours, inaccurate cash registers and someone getting food poisoning are NOT current affairs of national importance. Such things did used to be discussed on TV and indeed on that very program, but it all went to **** sometime in the 1990's unfortunately.

MrBurns · 2 August 2012

Smurf1976 said:
It may be somewhat biased, but at least it does discuss actual current affairs.

Note to those under about 30 years old - current affairs, and anything shown on the TV program "A Current Affair" are entirely different things. Disputes between neighbours, inaccurate cash registers and someone getting food poisoning are NOT current affairs of national importance. Such things did used to be discussed on TV and indeed on that very program, but it all went to **** sometime in the 1990's unfortunately.

It's called infotainment and its 100% BS, contrived, sensationalised depressing rubbish.
Even the promos make me sick.

drsmith · 4 August 2012

There was a piece in Thursday's Financial Review on the NBN.

According to the article on page 10, the government is preparing to release a document that confirms the NBN is going to exceed the $36bn cost target and is falling behind on construction and connection targets.

Julia · 4 August 2012

The same info ran in "The Australian".
Are we surprised?

So_Cynical · 4 August 2012

From Google

tar·get/ˈtÃ¤rgit/
Noun: A person, object, or place selected as the aim of an attack.
Verb: Select as an object of attention or attack.
Synonyms: aim - mark - goal - objective - object - purpose

Get a grip people.

Smurf1976 · 4 August 2012

drsmith said:
Tgovernment is preparing to release a document that confirms the NBN is going to exceed the $36bn cost target and is falling behind on construction and connection targets.

50 years ago, it was reasonably possible to build large infrastructure projects (at the time, dams, power stations, highways, rail etc) using one of two methods.

For ongoing construction programs, such as generally existed for roads and power, employing your own workforce and having your own machinery etc made sense. Then you had competent people, generally engineers, in charge with an assortment of professional and other practical types under them. Things got done, not perfectly but in most cases fairly well.

For one-off projects you used contractors since the cost of setting up permanently was not justified. Again, you had engineers and other practical types running the show and contracts were actually enforced.

Now we have a problem where government runs everything using either people with no qualifications and experience at all, or accountants. Now, I have nothing against accountants per se but they don't make good engineers and aren't generally the best people to run a physical workforce either. They do accounting. Same with the lawyers who seem to find a liking for politics - they're (hopefully) good at law but you wouldn't expect them to have a clue about running a construction project.

And so far as contracts are concerned, a project like this one is as close as you'll ever get to money for nothing (or at least very little). It was fairly obvious right from the start that that there would be loopholes, so it's no surprise to now see that costs are blowing out. Even though we have rather a lot of ex lawyers in parliament, enforcing contracts seems to be a persistent problem for all governments.

The problem isn't the NBN so much as it's that Labor, and largely Liberal as well, simply can't build things like this due to either lack of understanding on how to go about it or due to ideological barriers to doing it properly. Both major parties have big problems there - they don't know, but have this strange notion that some lawyer sitting in an office with an accountant beside them is the way to go about it.

Just wait until the shortcuts start causing problems. That's when it gets really interesting.....

NBNMyths · 5 August 2012

The "document" they are about to release is the updated corporate plan.

There will undoubtedly be delays contained therin, because we already know about them, and they have happened since the old 2010 plan was released.

There may well be some cost blowouts in there, but I doubt they will be substantial. If I had to guess, I'd say it's still below the original $43bn target, but above the revised $37bn target.

I would also say that revenue estimates will be increased, given that we now have takeup stats which are showing that NBN users are choosing much faster speed tiers than was predicted in the 2010 corporate plan. eg: The 2010 plan predicted only 8% would choose 100Mbps ($37 p/m), but almost 40% have chosen it in practise. The 2010 plan predicted 55% would choose the base 12Mbps ($24 p/m), but only 12% have, with the rest taking up higher speeds providing more revenue.

Overall, I don't think there will be any massive changes to the Govt equity required or the payback time.....fingers crossed....

NBN Rollout Scrapped

Smurf1976

MrBurns

sptrawler

MrBurns

sptrawler

MrBurns

sptrawler

NBNMyths

NBNMyths

Calliope

MrBurns

NBNMyths

MrBurns

Smurf1976

MrBurns

drsmith

Julia

In Memoriam

So_Cynical

The Contrarian Averager

Smurf1976

NBNMyths

Similar threads

NBN Rollout Scrapped

In Memoriam

The Contrarian Averager

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency