NBN Rollout Scrapped

[NBNMyths]

For your amusement Myths, I'll just say nothing is bullet proof when ultimately confronted with the reality of a Labor disaster.

Sorry, but it is impossible to blame Labor for the cost blowout of rolling out FTTN. The coalition knew how much had been injected into NBN Co up to now, and they knew that they would continue FTTP until 2015ish.

There is nothing the ALP have done to date which makes FTTN any more expensive than Turnbull knew it would be months ago. We all said they were dreaming with regards to their cost and timetable, and it turns out we were right.

 

[sydboy007]

We could go back to what happened to Labor's first policy attempt attempt at this from government. We could then look at their second policy in practice and perhaps give them some credit for trying. It's the current government though that has to clean up this mess.

Under Captain Sol Telstra played hard ball and didn't put in a tender to help with their initial broadband plans. Advise provided to the Govt basically told them you can't do FTTN unless you're the owner of the copper, so FTTP NBN was their answer to Telstra's intransigence, along with removing the massively degraded copper and associated costs.

Under current contracts NBN Co don't gain effective customer access to the copper and HFC networks for free.

http://www.nbnco.com.au/assets/medi...nd-optus-sign-binding-agreement-23-jun-11.pdf

It's within that framework I would suggest that negotiations will take place.

Under the current agreements the HFC and copper networks have pretty much $0 value.

In a FTTN network the copper is EXTREMELY valuable, and to reuse the HFC network also makes it economically valuable. Shareholder class actions will occur if either of these networks is given away for free.

As for information regarding FTTN and HFC costs, it's there from page 85 although some of the actual numbers are redacted.

So much of the information needed to understand the LN+Ps policy costings have not been provided to the voters because..? If this is the transparency promised by MT then he needs a dictionary to learn what the term actually means.

 

[drsmith]

Sorry, but it is impossible to blame Labor for the cost blowout of rolling out FTTN. The coalition knew how much had been injected into NBN Co up to now, and they knew that they would continue FTTP until 2015ish.

There is nothing the ALP have done to date which makes FTTN any more expensive than Turnbull knew it would be months ago. We all said they were dreaming with regards to their cost and timetable, and it turns out we were right.

The Coalition's pre-election policy announcement was always a political document. It had to be because what we were seeing on rollout projections and cost of the NBN while Labor was in office was misleading at best and in the end was hidden when the lie could no longer be sustained.

This is an unfortunate symptom of a broader fundamental problem with our political culture as a whole.

 

[So_Cynical]

The Coalition's pre-election policy announcement was always a political document

While everything a politician says publicly can in some way be considered political...statements of fact like the 25 Mbps minimum by the end of the first term etc are also promises to be kept.
~

 

[drsmith]

While everything a politician says publicly can in some way be considered political...statements of fact like the 25 Mbps minimum by the end of the first term etc are also promises to be kept.

Like the ever diminishing rollout schedule under Labor's administration ?

One cannot judge the current government NBN policy statement from opposition in isolation. It needs to be considered through the prism of achievement from the time of the previous government vs the forecasts.

 

[Smurf1976]

According to the neighbours, Visionstream (NBN contractor) was poking around outside my house (and others nearby) last week.

I'm in an area supposedly missing out on fibre to the home, but I won't be complaining if it goes in that's for sure. Only downside is that apparently there's a pit buried somewhere under my garden so it may need to be dug up (I'm going to locate the pit myself in order to prevent any unnecessary digging and damage etc).

 

[NBNMyths]

Like the ever diminishing rollout schedule under Labor's administration ?

One cannot judge the current government NBN policy statement from opposition in isolation. It needs to be considered through the prism of achievement from the time of the previous government vs the forecasts.

So if I may translate that from political speak into normal English. You're actually saying:

"It's perfectly OK for the Coalition to fail on their promises on NBN progress (+2yrs), coverage (-30%) and cost (+33%), because the ALP 'failed' as well".

My question then, is how far back can we take that attitude?

The Howard Government had 13-odd failed attempts at broadband policy over 11 years in office. Leaving Labor to "clean up the mess" they were left in the form of a hostile, powerful vertical monopoly in Telstra, and a broadband network near the bottom of the OECD. Does that not excuse the ALP from any and all failures on their NBN? Or does your excuse theory only work one-way?

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

The NBN was never properly costed and lacked proper governance from it's inception.

A back of envelope birth via Rudd and Conroy on a government flight, does not make for a sustainable venture.

It has been plagued since it's inception as a result.

Any outcome which is costed and has proper governace would be satisfactory.

gg

 

[sydboy007]

The NBN was never properly costed and lacked proper governance from it's inception.

A back of envelope birth via Rudd and Conroy on a government flight, does not make for a sustainable venture.

It has been plagued since it's inception as a result.

Any outcome which is costed and has proper governace would be satisfactory.

gg

Yet the Coalition has failed less than 9 months after their policy launch that Tony said he was "proud" of.

If the FTTP NBN was written down on a coaster during a flight, then you would have to think the LN+P FTTN + HFC + ??? noodle network was a purely political exercise designed to make voters believe they could vote for the coalition and get an upgrade to their broadband speeds by the end of 2016. it would seem the LN+P had no intention of honoring their "rock solid" promise to deliver the upgrade by 2016.

You seem very supportive of a Government that has backtracked on a major policy they took to the electorate, it even passes the Abbott political "honesty" test because it wasn't off the cuff remarks given in an interview, it was written down which Abbott has told us is the only stuff we can trust from him.

You support a Government that claims they can reuse the copper network, yet has been unwilling / unable to provide even basic audits to confirm this is possible, nor are they willing to provide a $ figure on how much they estimate it will cost to remediate the copper network, nor how much it will cost to upgrade the HFC network, which will be a similar undertaking as to their FTTN rollout.

Your support a Government that has said they believe Telstra, and now Optus, will hand over their copper and HFC networks for FREE. In the words of Darryl kerrigan "tell them they're dreaming."

I've got no problem with your criticism of the Labor NBN rollout, but please use the same standards when talking about the LN+P proposal.

 

[So_Cynical]

Like the ever diminishing rollout schedule under Labor's administration ?

One cannot judge the current government NBN policy statement from opposition in isolation. It needs to be considered through the prism of achievement from the time of the previous government vs the forecasts.

That's spin ^

They made promises that they couldn't keep, promises that they should never have made, stupid promises that now make them (The Noalition) look stupid.

 

[IFocus]

Like the ever diminishing rollout schedule under Labor's administration ?

One cannot judge the current government NBN policy statement from opposition in isolation. It needs to be considered through the prism of achievement from the time of the previous government vs the forecasts.

You're just getting smashed here, perhaps the ABC could help you out with the facts.

 

[drsmith]

So if I may translate that from political speak into normal English. You're actually saying:

"It's perfectly OK for the Coalition to fail on their promises on NBN progress (+2yrs), coverage (-30%) and cost (+33%), because the ALP 'failed' as well".

My question then, is how far back can we take that attitude?

The Howard Government had 13-odd failed attempts at broadband policy over 11 years in office. Leaving Labor to "clean up the mess" they were left in the form of a hostile, powerful vertical monopoly in Telstra, and a broadband network near the bottom of the OECD. Does that not excuse the ALP from any and all failures on their NBN? Or does your excuse theory only work one-way?

What I'm saying is that politics is a game of relativities.

This government's record is that it has scaled back its commitment from before the election while the previous government has delivered very little from 6-years in office and through their rigid ideology, wasted vast sums of taxpayer money.

 

[NBNMyths]

What I'm saying is that politics is a game of relativities.

This government's record is that it has scaled back its commitment from before the election while the previous government has delivered very little from 6-years in office and through their rigid ideology, wasted vast sums of taxpayer money.

Wasted? What money spent on the NBN so far has been wasted? Most has gone into the transit network, satellites and wireless (all of which are also required by -and part of- the Coalition NBN).

Even the money spent on FTTP to date hasn't been "wasted". It's just been used to build a more capable and longer-lasting network than what the Coalition are doing.

It's like saying "The ALP wasted money building a concrete-foundation freeway", when the coalition are instead building a 2-pack seal road (being generous).

Let's see which technology history judges to be the "wasted investment" in 20 years time.

 

[drsmith]

Let's see which technology history judges to be the "wasted investment" in 20 years time.

And in the meantime, we'll pretend the rollout delays and cost blowouts have never happened.

 

[NBNMyths]

The NBN was never properly costed and lacked proper governance from it's inception.

....

Any outcome which is costed and has proper governace would be satisfactory.

gg

So, does a plan for which the cost increased by 33% (three months after the "bulletproof" costings were released by Tony and Malcolm) fit that criteria?

...How about a plan that requires access to infrastructure owned by another company, for which no access has been negotiated and no access or purchase cost has been included in (even the blown-out) costings?

...How about a plan which promises certain speeds using that infrastructure, when the plan happily admits that there has not been a single test done to see if those speeds are actually achievable, nor any data received on what the condition of that infrastructure is?

...How about a plan which was developed by a bloke who owns half of the Minister's yacht?

...How about a plan for a project in which the overlooking joint parliamentary committee has been dissolved?


Doesn't sound like a good start for a "properly costed, properly governed" outcome to me.

 

[Calliope]

Wasted? What money spent on the NBN so far has been wasted?

Myths, you are just an old-fashioned socialist.

SO Labor's National Broadband Network rollout would have cost taxpayers $73 billion -- about the value of 73 base hospitals. Not $4.7bn with completion this year -- the fantasy floated by Kevin Rudd in 2007. Not the $37bn peddled by former communications minister Stephen Conroy on the many occasions he castigated this newspaper for arguing for a cost-benefit analysis because we believed the project would cost far more than his spin-meisters claimed. And not the $44bn predicted by the NBN Co. For $73bn, it would have been completed three years late, by 2024. And to meet Labor's targeted rate of return, internet bills would have had to rise by 80 per cent.

Such breathtaking incompetence and unconscionable waste dwarfs the school halls ($16bn), pink batts ($2.45bn) and set-top boxes ($300 million) debacles combined -- almost four times over. It places the Rudd and Gillard governments in a pantheon of their own -- far beyond the Whitlam government -- for extravagance and old-fashioned socialism.

Already, as Mr Turnbull said, the inefficient rollout has cost taxpayers $20bn. Shamefully, Labor even insisted fibre-optic cables had to be dug through walls into every flat and bedsit in multi-dwelling units. Running the cable into the basement and connecting it to existing copper wiring would have saved vast amounts of time, money and disruption

.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...r-to-be-repeated/story-e6frg71x-1226783603660

 

[sails]

...Doesn't sound like a good start for a "properly costed, properly governed" outcome to me.

Myths, you will clearly never be happy with anything a coalition government does.

 

[sydboy007]

Myths, you are just an old-fashioned socialist.

How can $20 billion be wasted on the NBN when no where near that amount of spending has occurred?

Are you saying that all the current infrastructure that has been deployed for the NBN has a negative value ie you would have to PAY someone to take ownership of it?

Remmeber Turnbuull was saying the NBN was going to cost $94B pre election, and that figure has fallen by about as much as the node fridge next work costs have increased.

Do you believe that Telstra and Optus will provide the copper and HFC networks for free? If not, how much will it cost? The Coalition has turned what were going to be near worthless assets into very valuable core components of their proposed node fridge network and cable network.

- - - Updated - - -

Myths, you will clearly never be happy with anything a coalition government does.

More like use the same criteria to criticise the Coalition as you do Labor.

 

[NBNMyths]

And in the meantime, we'll pretend the rollout delays and cost blowouts have never happened.

There's no disputing the rollout delays, but that doesn't make for "wasted money".

I disagree that there have been substantial cost blowouts, but even if (for argument's sake) there had been, and the cost of FTTP is substantially higher than forecast, that still doesn't necessarily mean the money has been wasted. If we assume that FTTP is the eventual "end game" (which pretty much everyone in the know says it is), then at worst they have spent money now rather than spending it later. And since the majority of the cost of FTTP is in the form of labour (not equipment), it will cost less money to do it now than in 15 years (inflation).

Thus it's a highly dubious statement to say any money has been wasted, and if it has then it's certainly not "vast sums", if we assume we will eventually get to FTTP in any case. At worst, if FTTP isn't required for ~20 years, then you could probably say a few million dollars has been wasted in opportunity cost.

Conversely, how many billions will be spent buying/leasing/fixing/maintaining the old copper network, and will that be considered "wasted" in 10 or 15 years when (in all likelihood) it's thrown away?

 

[NBNMyths]

Myths, you are just an old-fashioned socialist.

.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...r-to-be-repeated/story-e6frg71x-1226783603660

Oh noes, a quote from Malcolm Turnbull in the Australian. There's some accurate objectivity right there.

I notice that Turnbull fails to mention that most of the $20bn so far committed to (not spent on) the NBN is also required for his policy (Transit, Wireless, sat) and so would be spent in any case.

Even the MDU statement is rubbish, since few have been done and the contracts to do those installations only come to $90m nationwide. Again, even if MDUs were not to be done with fibre, there would still be 10s of millions spent doing them with FTTB.