NBN Rollout Scrapped

NBNMyths · 17 November 2013

drsmith said:
NBN Co interim satellite service nearing capacity,

http://www.theage.com.au/it-pro/government-it/nbn-satellites-near-full-capacity-20131115-hv2m5.html

Just remembered this from April:
http://www.afr.com/p/technology/nbn_co_admits_satellite_limits_vP1IRqqloKsyyQz4LrAlZL

I expect given Hartsuyker's comments at the time, that the Coalition will insist NBN co fund more (expensive) interim bandwidth to keep the interim sat service open? He said at the time: “Quite clearly the demand for the service is there and you shouldn’t be discriminated against by virtue of where you live in the interim rollout,” Mr Hartsuyker said. “They should be able to access it and the NBN Co and the government should acquire the necessary capacity to keep the program open until the satellite service is operational.”

Or will this be another case of gum-flapping in opposition failing to translate to doing something in Government?

drsmith · 17 November 2013

Perhaps Myths you can also remind us as to the rollout targets from the various past NBN Co's Corporate Plans and how well they've correspond to what's actually happened.

More realistically though, there comes a point where it's just time to move on.

NBNMyths · 17 November 2013

drsmith said:
Perhaps Myths you can also remind us as to the rollout targets from the various past NBN Co's Corporate Plans and how well they've correspond to what's actually happened.

More realistically though, there comes a point where it's just time to move on.

I will (and have previously) acknowledged that they had delays in the rollout, for assorted reasons.

But your point is a red herring. I am moving on. Moving on to the new Government's policy, their promises while in opposition and their ability to deliver on them. Perhaps you should do the same.

You insisted that Labor's NBN rollout be held to account. You should now do the same for the coalition's version. You should demand that they honour their pre-election commitments, and that they deliver on their targets. Excusing Turnbull based on claims of alp failure does you no good. He should be judged against his own policies and promises.

drsmith · 17 November 2013

NBNMyths said:
I will (and have previously) acknowledged that they had delays in the rollout, for assorted reasons.

But your point is a red herring. I am moving on. Moving on to the new Government's policy, their promises while in opposition and their ability to deliver on them. Perhaps you should do the same.

You insisted that Labor's NBN rollout be held to account. You should now do the same for the coalition's version. You should demand that they honour their pre-election commitments, and that they deliver on their targets. Excusing Turnbull based on claims of alp failure does you no good. He should be judged against his own policies and promises.

Moving on to the new Government's policy ??

You started going on about it when it was initially released.

In the end, it wont be about me or you. The Coalition's delivery will ultimately be compared to Labor's and the final chapter on their rollout is yet to be written. That's the comparison that will matter in the eyes of the electorate.

What possible changes (if any) do you think Simon Hackett might bring ?

infamous · 18 November 2013

Coalition's FttN network unlikely to start rolling out before 2015

The Coalition government’s planned Fibre to the Node (FttN) network is unlikely to start rolling out before 2015, potentially delaying its timetable of providing download speeds of between 25 and 100 megabits per second by the end of 2016 and 50 to 100 megabits per second by 2019.

The proposed FttN network will require the installation of approximately 50,000 to 60,000 nodes and a source told Technology Spectator that at best NBN Co could get 200 nodes rolled out a week.

With the rollout at scale expected to start around early 2015, it could take NBN Co six years to roll the FttN network out at 200 nodes a week

It is understood that the 200 nodes a week figure was flagged by senior British Telecom executive Mike Galvin, who recently spent some time in Australia to advise NBN Co’s senior management and Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull.

NBN Co is currently conducting FttN trials (in lab) and field trials for Fibre to the Basement (FttB) services and the nodes won’t commence until next year.

Commencement of the actual rollout is dependent on a number of factors – the selection of the equipment (kit) vendor, the all-important Telstra renegotiation and the ACCC’s approval.

www.businessspectator.com.au/news/2...-fttn-network-unlikely-start-rolling-out-2015

NBNMyths · 18 November 2013

And what's happened to "Mr Transparency"? Remember when he likened the NBN to the Kremlin, compaining about the lack of information?

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-po.../gag-on-turnbull-briefing-20131116-2xnw4.html

The department led by Malcolm Turnbull - who last year said NBN Co was more secretive than the Kremlin - has refused to release its briefing to the new government under freedom of information laws.

http://delimiter.com.au/2013/11/18/delimiter-appeal-turnbulls-blue-book-censorship/

How the mighty have fallen.

trainspotter · 18 November 2013

NBNMyths said:
And what's happened to "Mr Transparency"? Remember when he likened the NBN to the Kremlin, compaining about the lack of information?

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-po.../gag-on-turnbull-briefing-20131116-2xnw4.html

http://delimiter.com.au/2013/11/18/delimiter-appeal-turnbulls-blue-book-censorship/

How the mighty have fallen.

aAAAAAHHHHHHHHH It was not "Mr Transparency" that blocked the release. it was this fellow:-

Andrew Madsen, Assistant Secretary of the Department’s Governance Branch.

This is his reason:-

“Disclosure of the confidential briefs would undermine the ability to develop and build an effective and productive working relationship between the Department and the Government in accordance with the long-standing conventions ofresponsible parliamentary government. The incoming government briefing represents the first exchange of advice between a department and an incoming Minister and as such, it has a unique status in forming the relationship oftrust and confidence between the Department and Minister.”

“The potential for this particular advice to be disclosed could result in the Department being drawn into public controversy and potential conflict with the Minister early in the term ofthe new government. Such an outcome could cause lasting damage to the relationship between the Department and the Minister, which could be detrimental to the effective operation ofthe government.”

Still I have to agree with you NBNMyths ...... looks like a duck, walks like a duck, must be a duck !

NBNMyths · 18 November 2013

trainspotter said:
aAAAAAHHHHHHHHH It was not "Mr Transparency" that blocked the release. it was this fellow:-

Andrew Madsen, Assistant Secretary of the Department’s Governance Branch.

This is his reason:-

“Disclosure of the confidential briefs would undermine the ability to develop and build an effective and productive working relationship between the Department and the Government in accordance with the long-standing conventions ofresponsible parliamentary government. The incoming government briefing represents the first exchange of advice between a department and an incoming Minister and as such, it has a unique status in forming the relationship oftrust and confidence between the Department and Minister.”

“The potential for this particular advice to be disclosed could result in the Department being drawn into public controversy and potential conflict with the Minister early in the term ofthe new government. Such an outcome could cause lasting damage to the relationship between the Department and the Minister, which could be detrimental to the effective operation ofthe government.”

Still I have to agree with you NBNMyths ...... looks like a duck, walks like a duck, must be a duck !

Oh, I see. It's all the bureaucrats' fault now, but it wasn't back in the ALP days? Back then it was the Ebil Gubment blocking "all the info"? Except that they did release the 2010 book though.

Riiiiiiight.

1. You think "his fellow" has been sitting on the FOI request for 2 months, and has not once discussed its prospective release with his boss?

2. There's nothing stopping Turnbull from releasing it with or without an FOI request. So why doesn't he?

I suspect given the "reason" for not releasing it is that the brief will contain some rather damaging advice to Mr Turnbull. Something along the lines of "You plan is crap, and it cannot be delivered as you have promised".

trainspotter · 18 November 2013

NBNMyths said:
Oh, I see. It's all the bureaucrats' fault now, but it wasn't back in the ALP days? Back then it was the Ebil Gubment blocking "all the info"?

Riiiiiiight.

1. You think "his fellow" has been sitting on the FOI request for 2 months, and has not once discussed its prospective release with his boss?

2. There's nothing stopping Turnbull from releasing it with or without an FOI request. So why doesn't he?

I suspect given the "reason" for not releasing it is that the brief will contain some rather damaging advice to Mr Turnbull. Something along the lines of "You plan is crap, and it cannot be delivered as you have promised".

Ermmmmmmm you seem to be missing the point here a tad. The "Blue Book" in question was requested PRIOR to the Liberal government taking office. This was rejected.

The "NEW" request now that he is in government is still being considered.

Delimiter’s FoI request on this issue ”” funded by readers through a crowdfunding request on Pozible ”” is still progressing. However, last week the Department made a separate decision on a separate FoI request with relation to the same document ”” Turnbull’s Blue Book. That application was received before Delimiter’s, in the caretaker period before the election, and so has been processed earlier.

Possible due to the amount of information required (545 pages of it) a considered approach is justifiable rather than a bull at a gate stampede? 2 months compared to 6 YEARS is a BIG difference.

Riiiiiiight.

NBNMyths · 18 November 2013

trainspotter said:
Ermmmmmmm you seem to be missing the point here a tad. The "Blue Book" in question was requested PRIOR to the Liberal government taking office. This was rejected.

The "NEW" request now that he is in government is still being considered.

Possible due to the amount of information required (545 pages of it) a considered approach is justifiable rather than a bull at a gate stampede? 2 months compared to 6 YEARS is a BIG difference.

Riiiiiiight.

Perhaps you don't understand.

It was requested during the caretaker mode, but rejected last week.

The next request in line is the same as the rejected one, and is expected to be rejected on the same grounds. We shall see. Perhaps the negative publicity around the first rejection will change his mind, but given our new Govt's aversion to releasing information on anything, I'm not hopeful.

trainspotter · 18 November 2013

Since when has it been a governments policy to release information under the FoI PRIOR to them even obtaining office? Malcolm Turnbull asked for transparency from the previous government for 6 years and not much was released if in fact anything of consequence at all?

Mebbe Andrew Madsen, Assistant Secretary of the Department’s Governance Branch, might change his mind now the blowtorch of "transparency" is arced up? Like you said ... we will have to wait and see on this matter. Much ado about nothing much thus far IMO.

IF the "Blue Book" is continued to remain in the vault, THEN let's release the hounds.

overhang · 18 November 2013

drsmith said:
Moving on to the new Government's policy ??

You started going on about it when it was initially released.

In the end, it wont be about me or you. The Coalition's delivery will ultimately be compared to Labor's and the final chapter on their rollout is yet to be written. That's the comparison that will matter in the eyes of the electorate.

What possible changes (if any) do you think Simon Hackett might bring ?

Ultimately this will take 15+ years to gauge. IMO considering the intended dates and costings Labor's NBN would have been considered a failure because of the blowouts, it would be many years later when all though still considered a failure it would be the failure we had to have.

Given the rapid expansion of the internet and bandwidth requirements it's inevitable that in the not to distant future that FTTN will be insufficient. By this stage a large digital divide will have occurred and most regional areas won't receive FTTH that their metropolitan counterparts will have due to the economic viability to the private sector. Now people such as yourself will never support a tax payer funded infrastructure project to upgrade these homes because it will now be even more unviable as there will be no profitable areas left to hedge the project like there is today. What is your solution for when this time comes? Are you banking on wireless or some other cheap alternative to be suitable by then?

drsmith · 18 November 2013

overhang said:
Ultimately this will take 15+ years to gauge. IMO considering the intended dates and costings Labor's NBN would have been considered a failure because of the blowouts, it would be many years later when all though still considered a failure it would be the failure we had to have.

Given the rapid expansion of the internet and bandwidth requirements it's inevitable that in the not to distant future that FTTN will be insufficient. By this stage a large digital divide will have occurred and most regional areas won't receive FTTH that their metropolitan counterparts will have due to the economic viability to the private sector. Now people such as yourself will never support a tax payer funded infrastructure project to upgrade these homes because it will now be even more unviable as there will be no profitable areas left to hedge the project like there is today. What is your solution for when this time comes? Are you banking on wireless or some other cheap alternative to be suitable by then?

People such as myself ??

What about people such as Simon Hackett ?

You quoted the question in your response. Do you wish to offer any insight or just be another that condemns the Coalition from the outset ?

overhang · 18 November 2013

drsmith said:
People such as myself ??

What about people such as Simon Hackett ?

You quoted the question in your response. Do you wish to offer any insight or just be another that condemns the Coalition from the outset ?

Sorry I didn't mean anything personal by that just rather that you have been quite the critic of the FTTH NBN and in my scenario if you don't support the business model now where the city funds regional NBN that will eventually pay itself off then I can't see how you will support the roll out of the last mile in 15+ years to the remainder of the country that has been deemed economically unviable by the private sector but requires an upgrade.

Simon Hackett already has many idea's to reduce the cost of FTTH "Removing the so-called NBN connection boxes are one of the many ways Internode founder Simon Hackett believes the NBN could be rolled out cheaper." http://www.zdnet.com/direct-fibre-could-make-nbn-cheaper-hackett-7000018165/

If the board were able to make a few compromises here and there to reduce the cost of the roll out while still maintaining FTTH then I guess everyone could be somewhat satisfied as it appears a compromise needs to be made.

I can't speak for everyone but it's not that I have a problem with the Coalition but I have a fundamental problem with their infrastructure project that uses the aging copper. Considering the position I believe the internet will be in 15+ years in Australia I'm sure you can appreciate my pessimism regarding their NBN as I believe its shortsighted.

drsmith · 18 November 2013

overhang said:
Sorry I didn't mean anything personal by that just rather that you have been quite the critic of the FTTH NBN and in my scenario if you don't support the business model now where the city funds regional NBN that will eventually pay itself off then I can't see how you will support the roll out of the last mile in 15+ years to the remainder of the country that has been deemed economically unviable by the private sector but requires an upgrade.

Simon Hackett already has many idea's to reduce the cost of FTTH "Removing the so-called NBN connection boxes are one of the many ways Internode founder Simon Hackett believes the NBN could be rolled out cheaper." http://www.zdnet.com/direct-fibre-could-make-nbn-cheaper-hackett-7000018165/

If the board were able to make a few compromises here and there to reduce the cost of the roll out while still maintaining FTTH then I guess everyone could be somewhat satisfied as it appears a compromise needs to be made.

I can't speak for everyone but it's not that I have a problem with the Coalition but I have a fundamental problem with their infrastructure project that uses the aging copper. Considering the position I believe the internet will be in 15+ years in Australia I'm sure you can appreciate my pessimism regarding their NBN as I believe its shortsighted.

My criticism has not been so much one of FTTH but rather, its deliverability under Labor's model anywhere remotely within the specified parameters. Over time, this criticism has been borne out with the ongoing delays that have occurred in the rollout schedule in particular. What the Coalition in government ultimately achieve in my view needs to be seen in that light. Labor gave hope and in that context and in a purely technological sense, the Coalition's solution is lacking. The problem though with the hope Labor gave is that it was false.

The basic element of the Labor model (NBN Co) however will remain and at that level, their proposition will be preserved. Whilst obviously not unimportant, the rest is detail. In that sense, the Coalition's policy response released earlier this year needs to be seen not as a final end point to the last detail, but rather as a foundation to what they think should be built and that is the foundation of broader technological consideration than Labor was prepared to consider. An opposition does not have the resources of government to formulate policy detail to the detail that a government does.

Simon Hackett's appointment to the board of NBN Co is a sign to me that The Coalition and Malcolm Turnbull are genuinely technology agnostic. If not, why would he join ?

Whilst looking through the front flap of the Coalition's tent, I would suspect Simon Hackett has seen that it won't be full FTTP as he would prefer, but has seen enough to want to go in. At the same time, The coalition has seen fit to welcome him in. While there's obviously not a lot of common ground between the opposing viewpoints on this thread, there's obviously a common ground between Simon Hackett and the Coalition and that's an encouraging sign in my view. Myths, despite his otherwise staunch criticism of the Coalition on this issue also sees this as a positive and looking forward has much that is positive to offer this discussion given his technological interest. Much more than I could in that specific area I would say.

NBNMyths · 19 November 2013

trainspotter said:
Since when has it been a governments policy to release information under the FoI PRIOR to them even obtaining office? Malcolm Turnbull asked for transparency from the previous government for 6 years and not much was released if in fact anything of consequence at all?

Mebbe Andrew Madsen, Assistant Secretary of the Department’s Governance Branch, might change his mind now the blowtorch of "transparency" is arced up? Like you said ... we will have to wait and see on this matter. Much ado about nothing much thus far IMO.

IF the "Blue Book" is continued to remain in the vault, THEN let's release the hounds.

Everything you've written in that post is utterly false.

Nobody is suggesting they release info prior to gaining office. But they're now in office, and the decision to refuse the FOI request was done well after they assumed power (~7 weeks). They didn;t get the blue book until they came into power. That's the whole point of the book!

The NBN is the most scrutinised GBE in Australia, being subject to Senate Estimates hearings and its own dedicated parliamentary committee. It was also legislated to be subjected to FOI laws (even though GBEs are usually exempt).

There are numerous FOI documents on the NBN Co website from the last several years, if you care to look.

The "red book" (ie the 2010 version of the Blue Book) was released under FOI.

drsmith · 19 November 2013

Under the contract with Telstra, the copper is cut but the NBN still can't be connected.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-18/nbn-areas-in-limbo/5100668

So_Cynical · 19 November 2013

Hate to keep banging on about this but

This is the speed test of my Third world FTTH connection 2.91 on a 3 Mbps connection, with 0 ping to boot...more than 5 times faster than my DSL2 inner suburban Sydney connection.
~

Garpal Gumnut · 20 November 2013

Garpal Gumnut said:
Your argument is similar to Coles deciding to sell exotic fruit, devoting 15% of sales area to exotic fruit, no ifs nor buts, without looking at the business case, risk, reward, dangers, opportunities.

You are arguing the succulence of Davondus Fruit versus Pinkallilly Pear.

It just ain't a goer, dollar wise.

OK.

gg

sydboy007 said:
Sounds more comparable to the Coalition 88 pages of relatively useless information on their proposed FTTN.

No mention of maximum cable distance to support proposed speeds, no estimate of how many nodes would be required, no details on if nodes will need active cooling, heck not even a proposed audit of the copper network to see if it's actually feasible to use it for FTTN in the majority of locations.

I don't understand how you can say the Coalition plan is better when you freely admit you have no idea about the whole technology being proposed.

My point was that the very birth of the NBN was a brainfart between Conroy and Rudd on a plane, designed on the back of a coaster.

There was very poor governance in it's inception, and that continues.

It was rolled ot too quickly without a cost benefit analysis taking in to account risks and benefits.

A political decision to spend taxpayers money on a grand scheme does never give me a sense that if it was their money, would they have spent it.

The progress of this pup of a project merely gives weight to my argument.

gg

NBNMyths · 20 November 2013

drsmith said:
Under the contract with Telstra, the copper is cut but the NBN still can't be connected.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-18/nbn-areas-in-limbo/5100668

Well, that's stupid. Obviously if there are people on a migration waiting list, then the copper should remain active until they are switched over.

Having said that though, why did the example in the story wait until "the last minute" to call and switch over? As I understand it, the only areas currently being switched are the three trial areas which have now been active for almost 3 years. They were warned over a year ago that the copper switchoff would occur this year.

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