NBN Rollout Scrapped

[Calliope]

Perhaps Myths should sneer at Senator Xenophon.

Senator Xenophon said the responsibility now went beyond Telstra. "This is a legal minefield in terms of NBN Co and ultimately the commonwealth bearing responsibility for shoddy practices that have exposed the public to deadly asbestos," he said.

He said the NBN rollout should be stopped until an audit was carried out to identify the potential exposures and to ensure the health of residents was monitored.

"This is just a massive ticking time-bomb in the suburbs that could have been avoided," he said.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...-clean-up-begins/story-e6frgaif-1226654128177

 

[Julia]

Allegations from 2GB that sub contractors are dumping removed asbestos in national parks in the Sydney area instead of taking it to the appropriate places where it would be properly dealt with. Further, that they are using rental cars, thus leaving fibres in these hire vehicles.

Apparently there is a substantial fee for the proper disposal of asbestos, which the sub contractors will be receiving. Some of them obviously see this as more in their pockets by taking the money and not paying the disposal fee.

This has the potential to be a massive problem imo, much worse than the house fires with the pink batts.

 

[boofhead]

Someone needs a reality check.

NBN is the catalyst for Telstra's issues. Do note Telstra is the one responsible. Telstra has removed so much of the workforce they contract out the work. Coalition's plans would require some of the same work to be done. Do you think the pits etc. were going to be laying in ground for centuries to never need be touched? If Telstra's infrastructure was up to scratch it wouldn't be an issue. Even before the fibre project was announced there have been stories surfacing that a lot of the maintenance was done in a rush to meet timelines at the same time the workforce was being downsized.

 

[Calliope]

From NBN you can get two fibres for the price of one...and a lot faster too.

 

[bellenuit]

I loved the letter in today's The Australian. It went something like: "When Labor promised to deliver fibre to the home, I didn't think they meant this type of fibre".

 

[NBNMyths]

AS Myths admits;

Telstra sub-contractors are digging up fibro-asbestos-cement pits and pipes infrastructure to make it ready for NBN Co. Under the Turnbull model it they would be left mainly undisturbed in suburban streets.

Really? And how do you think the optical fibre will be run from the 121 nationwide POI to the ~60,000-odd street cabinets (to be located every 500 metres or so along footpaths)? Not to mention the eventual (or customer-ordered) FTTP upgrade.

 

[Calliope]

I repeat "mainly undisturbed in suburban streets".

Opposition communications spokesman Malcolm Turnbull said the matter was one of ''greatest seriousness''.

He told Fairfax Media's Breaking Politics program on Friday that while the ''responsibility for remediating this old Telstra infrastructure has of course been Telstra's that is absolutely right, but they are doing that on behalf of and for the government-owned NBN company''.

''And so the government ultimately is responsible for overseeing the whole project so there is . . . I am not suggesting that Stephen Conroy has been personally responsible for this in a hands on manner but the truth is that there have been reports raised about inappropriate management of asbestos for some time and there clearly has not been an adequate response.

''The buck stops with the government.''

He said under the Coalition's plan there would not be the same disturbance of the existing infrastructure in place because ''in most cases'' the fibre would not be taken into every house.

http://www.dailylife.com.au/opinion...efends-asbestos-practices-20130531-2nfem.html

 

[NBNMyths]

I repeat "mainly undisturbed in suburban streets".

And I repeat the question:

How will they run the fibre down the streets to the cabinets without using the same ducts that NBN Co are using? Just because they aren't replacing the copper doesn't mean they don't use the ducts.

With cabinets every ~500m down every street, there will be minimal difference in duct access requirements at a street level. They will still need to run fibre down the ducts of almost every street (sans really short streets) to get to the FTTN cabinets. The major difference is the small conduits running into the houses, which don't contain asbestos anyway.

 

[Smurf1976]

Allegations from 2GB that sub contractors are dumping removed asbestos in national parks in the Sydney area instead of taking it to the appropriate places where it would be properly dealt with. Further, that they are using rental cars, thus leaving fibres in these hire vehicles.

Apparently there is a substantial fee for the proper disposal of asbestos, which the sub contractors will be receiving. Some of them obviously see this as more in their pockets by taking the money and not paying the disposal fee.

Asbestos disposal - it needs to go to an approved landfill. It is stable once buried, but there will normally be a specific area at the landfill where it is dumped and this will be covered over each night. Not all landfills accept it and there are generally specific times for taking it there so that it is segregated from everything else and properly covered over.

As an example, one landfill that takes it in Tasmania will accept it between 11am and 1pm on Tuesday and Thursday only. There is another one nearby which accepts it on Fridays prior to 3pm. These are both the default times for asbestos burial. They will accept it at other times only if arranged in advance - you can't just turn up with it unannounced.

As for the cost, one council I know of charges $100 per cubic metre or part thereof for disposing of asbestos in their landfill. I suspect this maybe relatively cheap compared to what some others charge.

As for the issue of contaminated vehicles, to be honest there's no really certain way to clean it since there are too many small places, air vents, porous materials and so on. Imagine getting a bag of white flour and throwing that everywhere around the car. Now try and get it out again, with a guarantee that you'll remove every single bit of it without exception. It's just not going to happen.

 

[drsmith]

Some very sad news in relation to the NBN rollout today,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-31/man-dies-at-nbn-work-site/4726310

 

[Smurf1976]

Someone needs a reality check.

NBN is the catalyst for Telstra's issues.

Strongly agreed and it comes down to what happens when you lose control of your own assets as Telstra has effectively done.

There's nothing wrong with appropriate use of contractors, but you need to have your own workforce as well. Otherwise the contractor ends up "owning" the asset and you end up pretty much over a barrel.

Either you have a very long term contract, in which case you end up with the contractor putting their locks on things, putting their name on everything, holding all the really useful information, and charging for work that never needed doing in the first place. You end up pretty much stuck with the same contractor, since anyone else would have to spend a fortune just working out what's going on and will thus tender accordingly.

Or you have multiple contractors as Telstra has for this work, and then you get an outright debacle in terms of quality since nobody gives a damn about an asset that isn't theirs and for which they have no certainty of future work. So you get the quickest, cheapest and nastiest job they can manage to do.

What should have happened, is for Telstra to have their own maintenance workers and outsource the actual asbestos removal only. That way, you'd have actual Telstra employees on every site during every job since they'll be the ones putting the new pits in once the licensed Asbestos Removalist has removed the asbestos. You don't have quality problems that way, since if your own employees mess it up then they'll be the ones fixing it anyway - hence they generally won't mess it up in the first place. And if they do cause mayhem then you have a very direct way of dealing with it.

I've seen quite a few companies go down the "fully outsourced" model for field works and every one of them has ended up with a mess in one way or another. You either hand one contractor a monopoly and pay through the nose, or have the work done by people who don't give a damn. Lose or lose.

The other thing, is that they should have been investing in the network in the first place going back at least to the middle of last decade. It should never have been in doubt that a future fibre network would use Telstra's existing undergound infrastructure (why wouldn't it) and work should have been done accordingly over the past decade in a rational, sensible manner to remove the asbestos.

As a case in point, an inner CBD location in Hobart. Not too long ago the council did works on the footpath and other services removed asbestos at this time. Telstra left theirs in place, losing the opportunity to do it incredibly cheaply whilst the council already had everything dug up. That's just crazy.

Another example, a major arterial road in the suburbs. A few years ago work was being done there, and at that location Telstra's conduits (not just the pits) are made of asbestos. So what did their contractor do? Smash a hole in the side and bring a cable out of it that way. Apart from the obvious safety hazard, it also defeats the purpose of having a conduit in the first place since that cable will now be firmly stuck in place and the conduit will end up filled with FCR (road gravel) where the hole is.

That's just two random examples that I've seen with my own eyes (and I've never been employed to work on Telstra's infrastructure). There's heaps more like that all over the place, and it's the inevitable consequence of the way Telstra runs things. There's a proper role for contractors, but having them effectively running the show is dangerous when it's a specialised asset. It's not as though we're talking about resurfacing a road or pruning some trees or something like that which can be easily inspected and which is generic in nature. With the sort of work Telstra needs doing, it could well be 20 years before defects are found - and good luck getting the contractor back to fix them after that time.

Does the Telstra CEO, board members and other senior management even know what's in a pit (apart from asbestos)? And have any of them got real world experience with underground assets? Somehow I seriously doubt it, and yet it's critical to the company's business.

 

[Calliope]

And I repeat the question:

How will they run the fibre down the streets to the cabinets without using the same ducts that NBN Co are using? Just because they aren't replacing the copper doesn't mean they don't use the ducts.

It won't be your problem, nor Conroy's nor Quigley's.

Smurf asks;

Does the Telstra CEO, board members and other senior management even know what's in a pit (apart from asbestos)? And have any of them got real world experience with underground assets? Somehow I seriously doubt it, and yet it's critical to the company's business.

Probably not and the same would apply to NBN Co's CEO, Board members and senior management. All these people know is retail. They know nothing about construction. They are at the mercy of the contractors with their cost-cutting disregard of safety.

 

[Calliope]

Quigley's days are numbered.

THE Coalition has put NBN Co chief executive Mike Quigley on notice that his position may not continue under an Abbott government after a horror week for the $37.4 billion project in which it was revealed that workers and residents were exposed to asbestos risks during the rollout.

As evidence emerged of an exodus of senior construction and safety staff from NBN Co in recent months, the opposition's communications spokesman, Malcolm Turnbull, reiterated concerns about the selection of Mr Quigley.

Although he stopped short of saying he would appoint a new NBN Co chief executive, Mr Turnbull said: "I don't think (Mr Quigley) was the best choice for that role given the fact that he had never run a telecom company or built a telecommunications network, been responsible for building one; he had worked for a vendor. Certainly the performance of the NBN Co in its continuation of its construction project has not been very impressive, has it?"

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...uigley-on-notice/story-fn59niix-1226654872623

 

[Julia]

Letter to the "Weekend Australian":

We can't say we weren't warned.
Labor's sumptuous school shelters and flaming home insulation programs were simply a warm-up for their asbestos to the home rollout.

 

[awg]

The asbestos pit situation is beyond farcical.

I've been involved in pit removal, nothing has changed in 20 years..(from what I hear)

They are made of asbestos cement, and they get broken when removed, because conduits intrude, and they are stuck by suction into the soil.

This work is mainly done by contractors, who have had the price screwed down.

Many are small operators with a ute.

Machinery is not supposed to be used, hand digging.

Doing it in such a way as no fibres were released would take forever.

Ive seen them smashed up and buried in the trench.

Never seen anyone use more than a dust mask.


Was chatting to my mate who is a senior supervisor far a contractor.

His job is to fix stuff-ups, he works 16hr days!

Was telling me he used to maintain the phones in Wittenoom, until one day his boss,
said to him that he thought digging trenches there was not so good, rang their bosses in Perth, who told them to immediately abandon all work there! (Telstra)

He also told me that many years ago in Canberra, they used to crawl about in pure asbestos fibre insulation in roofspaces, as it was ubiquitous in that location.

I am 100% sure, that once Libs are elected, the NBN will die in the ass due to cost.
They will just stop, we all know politicians word is worth next-to-nothing

The other thing, is that they should have been investing in the network in the first place going back at least to the middle of last decade. It should never have been in doubt that a future fibre network would use Telstra's existing undergound infrastructure (why wouldn't it) and work should have been done accordingly over the past decade in a rational, sensible manner to remove the asbestos.

As a case in point, an inner CBD location in Hobart. Not too long ago the council did works on the footpath and other services removed asbestos at this time. Telstra left theirs in place, losing the opportunity to do it incredibly cheaply whilst the council already had everything dug up. That's just crazy.

Another example, a major arterial road in the suburbs. A few years ago work was being done there, and at that location Telstra's conduits (not just the pits) are made of asbestos. So what did their contractor do? Smash a hole in the side and bring a cable out of it that way. Apart from the obvious safety hazard, it also defeats the purpose of having a conduit in the first place since that cable will now be firmly stuck in place and the conduit will end up filled with FCR (road gravel) where the hole is.

That's just two random examples that I've seen with my own eyes (and I've never been employed to work on Telstra's infrastructure). There's heaps more like that all over the place, and it's the inevitable consequence of the way Telstra runs things. There's a proper role for contractors, but having them effectively running the show is dangerous when it's a specialised asset. It's not as though we're talking about resurfacing a road or pruning some trees or something like that which can be easily inspected and which is generic in nature. With the sort of work Telstra needs doing, it could well be 20 years before defects are found - and good luck getting the contractor back to fix them after that time.

Does the Telstra CEO, board members and other senior management even know what's in a pit (apart from asbestos)? And have any of them got real world experience with underground assets? Somehow I seriously doubt it, and yet it's critical to the company's business.

 

[Calliope]

I am 100% sure, that once Libs are elected, the NBN will die in the ass due to cost.
They will just stop, we all know politicians word is worth next-to-nothing

I think the NBN rollout is dead in the water now. Contractors in suburban streets will have to go to extraordinary lengths to prevent the escape of asbestos fibres irrespective of whether the pits and pipes are FAC or not. This of course is not practicable operationally or cost-wise.

It matters not that thousands of homes prevent a greater asbestos hazard than the Telstra stuff. This one has captured the headlines.

Australians who believe they have been exposed to asbestos will be able to be placed on a national register under a government bill.

This is the biggest farce. Nearly all Australians have been exposed to asbestos contamination. Mesothelioma may not strike until decades after exposure. It's a ticking time bomb and it is one issue where the unions' demands have to be listened to.

 

[drsmith]

I think the NBN rollout is dead in the water now.

It's in a lot of bother if the following blog comment is true,

I watched the team across the street from me last week when they removed the old pit and put a new plastic one in it’s place, they were in full hazmat gear so obvious precautions were being made.

But it’s not the pits that are the problem, it’s the conduits, and they are going to be near impossible to replace Australia wide.

When they are laying the NBN fibres they aren’t using a snake to pull it through, that’s too time consuming and ultimately too costly. Instead they are firing the fibre through via air pressure (this is pretty standard practice by the way). The problem though is the asbestos conduit has started naturally crumbling over the years, and firing the fibre through gives a big cloud of asbestos dust at the other end, not healthy, not healthy at all.

http://delimiter.com.au/2013/06/03/telstra-pledges-strong-nbn-asbestos-controls/

 

[Calliope]

It's in a lot of bother if the following blog comment is true,

http://delimiter.com.au/2013/06/03/telstra-pledges-strong-nbn-asbestos-controls/

As the above link suggests "remediation" of the infrastructure should be the first priority.

However, what I do think is that this is precisely the kind of issue which only raises its head when we really get into the details of deploying fibre ”” to the node or to the premise ”” in Telstra’s existing infrastructure. What we are seeing here is the realisation of the fact that the FTTP/FTTN debate about the NBN may have been something of a furphy all along. The real issue, and it’s going to be an issue lasting several decades, it is increasingly looking like, is the ongoing remediation of Telstra’s network infrastructure in general ”” not just cables, but the physical pipes, pits and ducts where those cables are laid.

You can see this in the asbestos issue because it’s a very old type of material that hasn’t really been used in Australia for a long time. According to Wikipedia, which has a great and very detailed article on the subject, Australia phased out asbestos starting from 1989, and ceased mining asbestos in 1983. Concern had also been around since the 1970′s about the use of the material in building construction, and the actual diagnoses of asbestos-related illnesses dates way back to the 1920′s and 1930′s.

What this shows us is that much of Telstra’s physical network infrastructure hasn’t gone through significant remediation and modernisation works for decades. This is, perhaps, the real task facing Australia’s telecommunications industry, especially Telstra and NBN Co, right now ”” not deploying the NBN per se, but getting our national physical telecommunications infrastructure as a whole up to spec so that the network can be deployed. And I suspect that it will take a lot longer than anyone ”” even now ”” really expects, whether you use a FTTN or FTTP model. This is deep and complex stuff which will require a sustained effort to deal with.

 

[bellenuit]

Although the cost of getting the telstra pits up to the required standard may be horrendously expensive, isn't NBNCo in a no lose situation because the have already contracted that to Telstra as part of their $12B deal with them? It will be Telstra shareholders that will bear the brunt.

What I don't quite understand is the parts that NBNCo have directly subcontracted to other (non Telstra) parties and for which they (NBNCo) are responsible. Presumably these are not Telstra pits. What are they? For greenfields sites presumably the asbestos risk in no different to any other development in such areas that requires digging.

 

[drsmith]

I think Malcolm Turnbull got under Bill Shorten's skin.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...icising-asbestos-concerns-20130603-2nlc5.html