NBN Rollout Scrapped

[Paccioli]

The is little doubt that by the time the NBN is finally rolled out it will be redundant.:bad:

Sure. Tell us everything you know about spectrum, shared bandwidth, absorption and interference. Won't take long, I expect.

 

[So_Cynical]

I've seen on this thread many times stated that wireless will never match Labors NBN.
What about Samsung's announcement (downloading a movie in a second) download speeds several hundred times faster than 4g ...
http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/mobiles/samsung-announces-5g-data-breakthrough-20130514-2jizs.html

Somehow you missed this bit

Independent telecommunications analyst Chris Coughlan said at such an early stage the 5G wireless technology could not be compared with the NBN. He said there would be questions on how costly the 5G technology would be and how much spectrum it would need to use.
''There's a lot of things that have to be done for it to become viable,"he said.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/...reakthrough-20130514-2jizs.html#ixzz2TGQSsxW9

Wireless spectrum is limited, fibre optic basically isn't.

 

[bellenuit]

Wireless spectrum is limited, fibre optic basically isn't.

Could it fill the role of the last mile to the home though? I have read that this "5G" requires special antennas and is still only at the lab stage. There is also a question mark over Samsung calling it 5G, as the xGs (1G, 2G etc) are international standards and this has not been ratified by anybody at this stage.

But Samsung have tested to 1KM and if one were to put an antenna at the NBN nodes, it would be interesting to know if it could eliminate the need to run fibre to each individual home. Presumably the spectrum requirements over a small geographic area are significantly less than more widespread wireless networks. It doesn't need to service every home serviced by each node with 100Mbps+ speeds, only those who are not satisfied with the coalition's 25Mbps using existing copper.

This is why I believe that Turnbull is right not to put everything in the FTTP basket. Of course FTTP is faster than FTTN, but if it means a $40B+ saving and those who need the faster speeds can still be serviced by these ancillary technologies that may come our way, then his approach may be the best overall.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

I am told today by a contact in the Ross Island Hotel that Nicole Kidman can be downloaded on to one's lap, in one second via Samsung wireless.

Why would you bother with the NBN?

gg

 

[sydboy007]

Could it fill the role of the last mile to the home though? I have read that this "5G" requires special antennas and is still only at the lab stage. There is also a question mark over Samsung calling it 5G, as the xGs (1G, 2G etc) are international standards and this has not been ratified by anybody at this stage.

But Samsung have tested to 1KM and if one were to put an antenna at the NBN nodes, it would be interesting to know if it could eliminate the need to run fibre to each individual home. Presumably the spectrum requirements over a small geographic area are significantly less than more widespread wireless networks. It doesn't need to service every home serviced by each node with 100Mbps+ speeds, only those who are not satisfied with the coalition's 25Mbps using existing copper.

This is why I believe that Turnbull is right not to put everything in the FTTP basket. Of course FTTP is faster than FTTN, but if it means a $40B+ saving and those who need the faster speeds can still be serviced by these ancillary technologies that may come our way, then his approach may be the best overall.

So let me ask. At 1KM from the node, how many properties would be connecting to the "antenna" at the node sending the signal to all the houses within it's area? What would the available bandwidth in aggregate be, and what could each house expect to receive?

The entire usable wireless spectrum is pathetically small. A single fibre strand can currently do around 10Gbs with fairly standard tech. 100 Gbs is slowly rolling out into the core backbone of networks. Compare this to around 3GHz for the entire wireless spectrum. Most of this is already in use, so the reality is wireless can not, will not, and NEVER NOT (oh I know incorrect grammar but it helps to make my point) be able to provide the broadband needs of cities and will only every be useful in low density areas.

As for your $40B saving, can you clarify how MT is going to do this when it seems he has not budgeted fro any copper replacement within his current $29B FTTN network. If we end up replacing just 30% of the copper, I will be amazed and feel sorry for those who've been left on sub standard lines just so the Libs and Nats can try to fudge a cheaper build. I'm willing to take bets on MT failing to get get everyone not on fibre / wireless / satellite NBN to minimum of 25Mbs by late 2016 - I'll even give that till Dec 31 2016. I'm sure he will be providing the monthly updates he seems to think appropriate. Hopefully he's willing to resign for his incompetence should this goal not be met.

 

[So_Cynical]

Could it fill the role of the last mile to the home though?

But Samsung have tested to 1KM and if one were to put an antenna at the NBN nodes, it would be interesting to know if it could eliminate the need to run fibre to each individual home. Presumably the spectrum requirements over a small geographic area are significantly less than more widespread wireless networks.

Sure why not, The Noalition plans to build at least 40000 cabinets to house the 40000 nodes required so why not add 40000 antennas to that....it will still be a bottle neck compared to fibre.

 

[bellenuit]

Sure why not, The Noalition plans to build at least 40000 cabinets to house the 40000 nodes required so why not add 40000 antennas to that....it will still be a bottle neck compared to fibre.

Well it all sound expensive when you talk about 40,000 cabinets. But if each cabinet services 100 homes (I don't know the exact figure), that is 4,000,000 trenches that don't have to be dug. That sound much worse.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

If I am given a choice between Nicole Kidman dropping in my lap, via Samsung 5g, as opposed to a slow poorly extended out to no Labor electorates NBN, I'll take Nicole any ole day.

gg

 

[tinhat]

Well it all sound expensive when you talk about 40,000 cabinets. But if each cabinet services 100 homes (I don't know the exact figure), that is 4,000,000 trenches that don't have to be dug. That sound much worse.

A lot of it is going to be strung up on the poles just like with the existing copper and coaxial cables now. There are no underground services running down my street other than the water main (we don't have coaxial either).

 

[boofhead]

From http://www.arnnet.com.au/article/461691/new_samsung_tech_could_pave_way_5g_2020/ the Samsung tech uses 28 GHz - the higher the frequency the more power it needs. Also the more obstacles interfere. A common example is AM vs FM radio. The 5Gb/s is a nice headline but the devil is in the detail like all the wireless technologies. http://www.itwire.com/business-it-n...stra-demo-1tbps-transmission-on-telstra-fibre is Telstra's 1 Tb/s experiments using fibre. that is one wavelength over one fibre strand. Fibre supports multiple wavelengths per strand. Seems wireless in the lab is so far behind fibre and people talk about fibre being superseded. So for the technological aspect wireless is so far behind it is unbelievable and look how readily fibre has been proved to be upgradable. Once the expensive fibre is layed the upgrade cost is relatively low.

 

[Calliope]

A company like NBN Co which has no experience with cable roll-out, should never have been let loose on Telstra's FAC pits and pipes.

"None of the workers was using any sort of protective gear," Mr O'Farrell said. "There was nothing showing us, the local residents, they were working with asbestos."

The 38-year-old immediately called WorkCover, which arrived two days later and confirmed his worst fears: the pit was covered with the deadly fibre and now so was his home.

"It was everywhere: on the driveway, on the fence, on the top of my bins; when you hit a piece of fibro with a pick and a crowbar it explodes everywhere," he said.

Mr Davies and NSW Liberal senator Marise Payne, who lives in the area, said the execution of the NBN upgrades appeared to be akin to the insulation debacle, in which unqualified contractors installed insulation in homes during the government's stimulus program in 2008.

"To the ends of pushing things out hard and fast as (Labor) did with pink batts and aspects of the BER and stimulus program, if you do that and don't take care . . . you should expect problems," Senator Payne said yesterday. In a statement last night, Telstra chief operations officer Brendon Riley said the telco had commenced the audit "after a number of incidents of non-compliant asbestos management and removal".

NBN Co did not respond to phone calls from The Australian last night. But a Senate estimates committee is expected to question NBN chief executive Mike Quigley and other company executives tomorrow about compliance issues around the treatment and handling of asbestos.

Barry Robson, president of the Asbestos Diseases Foundation of Australia, claimed yesterday that one of the contractors attempted to calm a Penrith resident this month by telling them of the asbestos: "You can eat this ****."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...to-asbestos-risk/story-e6frgaif-1226652607700

 

[drsmith]

Are the asbestos issues above a product of subcontractors under NBN Co or Telstra ?

My reading of the media articles on this thus far is that the dust is settling on the hands of the latter.

 

[Calliope]

Are the asbestos issues above a product of subcontractors under NBN Co or Telstra ?

My reading of the media articles on this thus far is that the dust is settling on the hands of the latter.

Apparently Telstra has to give the all-clear before NBN's less competent sub-contractors move on to the FAC pits and pipes.

The Opposition communication's spokesman Malcolm Turnbull said asbestos affected pits should be identified before contractors are sent on site to work.

He said it was important Telstra was dealing with the issue.

Mr Turnbull said the Coalition's less ambitious broadband network would mean there was "less disturbance to legacy infrastructure" which may contain asbestos, especially outside people's homes.

 

[drsmith]

Apparently Telstra has to give the all-clear before NBN's less competent sub-contractors move on to the FAC pits and pipes.

If the subcontracts for asbestos removal are under NBN co, why would Telstra be auditing them ?

The concerns have forced Telstra to announce an audit of the work practices of staff and contractors involved in removing asbestos from Telstra’s infrastructure. Under its $11 billion deal with NBN Co, Telstra is responsible for OH&S issues involved in preparing its pipes for NBN fibre cable.

http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/networking/60052-nbn-asbestos-fears-prompt-telstra-audit

The devil will be in the detail of the contractual arrangements between Telstra and NBN Co. It will depend on whether or not preparing its pipes for NBN fibre cable involves removing the asbestos. I suspect we might see some commentary on that soon enough.

That being said, it's not what the project overall needed.

 

[Calliope]

If the subcontracts for asbestos removal are under NBN co, why would Telstra be auditing them ?



http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/networking/60052-nbn-asbestos-fears-prompt-telstra-audit

The devil will be in the detail of the contractual arrangements between Telstra and NBN Co. It will depend on whether or not preparing its pipes for NBN fibre cable involves removing the asbestos. I suspect we might see some commentary on that soon enough.

That being said, it's not what the project overall needed.

It is not about asbestos removal. The NBN deal with Telstra was to lease Telstra's infrastructure including the FAC pits and pipes. It would be assumed that this was safe to be used. The problem is that NBN sub-contractors not trained in asbestos handling are now running fibre in this infrastructure in suburban streets.

 

[Julia]

Pink Batts all over again?

 

[drsmith]

It is not about asbestos removal. The NBN deal with Telstra was to lease Telstra's infrastructure including the FAC pits and pipes. It would be assumed that this was safe to be used. The problem is that NBN sub-contractors not trained in asbestos handling are now running fibre in this infrastructure in suburban streets.

The following interviews with Stephen Conroy and Malcolm Turnbull makes for interesting listening. The thrust of the discussion tends to aim responsibility towards Telstra.

http://www.2gb.com/audioplayer/9365

The following specific example from a few weeks ago is aimed directly at the NBN.

http://www.theadvocate.com.au/story/1489079/asbestos-concerns-in-telstra-pits/?cs=87

One interesting question in terms of the public discussion is how long it will be before Telstra and NBN Co turn on each other.

 

[Smurf1976]

Anyone with knowledge of this work would be very well aware of the issues and what needs to be done.

They also would know that contractors tend to take shortcuts with cable hauling work generally and must therefore be under direct supervision at every site. With the new OH&S laws, gone are the days when you could just leave such things to contractors.

I can confirm from personal observation that work practices are not up to scratch with asbestos. I can also confirm that the cable being installed has been subject to damage in some cases. I can also confirm that third party infrastructure, for example water pipes and conduits carrying other cables, have been damaged and that this has been simply covered up (fill the hole in and ignore the damage). I have noted all of this through personal observation simply walking past work sites - no doubt there's far more problems than those I've spotted.

My real concern here is about the workers, many of whom probably didn't even know it was asbestos (whilst everyone knows asbestos exists, according to the union 85% of workers on this job haven't been trained to identify it and that sounds believable to me). Likewise their families will have been exposed if the workers are going home with contaminated work clothing and the like.

The only acceptable outcome, so far as I am concerned, is that the full force of the law applies to whoever is responsible at NBNCo and/or Telstra. As I said, anyone with experience in this type of work would know that it requires direct supervision and is at fault for not having their own staff supervising it.

There is no excuse for this having occurred, none whatsoever, and there is a need to both fix it in a safety sense and hand out sufficient punishment to those responsible (Telstra or NBNCo) such that this never occurs again.

For the record, I first posted about this issue in the Telstra thread in August 2005. There is no way that anyone in a position of authority ought to be able to claim ignorance in regard to this one. They are criminally negligent for endangering the safety of the workers and public so far as I'm concerned and need to be dealt with accordingly.

 

[sptrawler]

Anyone with knowledge of this work would be very well aware of the issues and what needs to be done.

They also would know that contractors tend to take shortcuts with cable hauling work generally and must therefore be under direct supervision at every site. With the new OH&S laws, gone are the days when you could just leave such things to contractors.

I can confirm from personal observation that work practices are not up to scratch with asbestos. I can also confirm that the cable being installed has been subject to damage in some cases. I can also confirm that third party infrastructure, for example water pipes and conduits carrying other cables, have been damaged and that this has been simply covered up (fill the hole in and ignore the damage). I have noted all of this through personal observation simply walking past work sites - no doubt there's far more problems than those I've spotted.

My real concern here is about the workers, many of whom probably didn't even know it was asbestos (whilst everyone knows asbestos exists, according to the union 85% of workers on this job haven't been trained to identify it and that sounds believable to me). Likewise their families will have been exposed if the workers are going home with contaminated work clothing and the like.

The only acceptable outcome, so far as I am concerned, is that the full force of the law applies to whoever is responsible at NBNCo and/or Telstra. As I said, anyone with experience in this type of work would know that it requires direct supervision if done by a contractor and is at fault for not having their own staff supervising it.

There is no excuse for this having occurred, none whatsoever, and there is a need to both fix it in a safety sense and hand out sufficient punishment to those responsible (which sits substantially with either Telstra or NBNCo senior management at the personal level) such that this never occurs again.

For the record, I first posted about this issue in the Telstra thread in August 2005. There is no way that anyone in a position of authority ought to be able to claim ignorance in regard to this one. They are criminally negligent for endangering the safety of the workers and public so far as I'm concerned and need to be dealt with accordingly.

As if that's going to happen, it will all grind to a halt.IMO

 

[Smurf1976]

As if that's going to happen, it will all grind to a halt.IMO

I have personally organised removal of asbestos pits for a different organisation in the past. Done roughly 100 of them.

I've had samples taken and I've had inspectors turn up on the job. No problems.

It can be done safely if done properly. As a general rule, easiest way I found was 2 staff in-house to do the traffic management and install the new pit, plus an "A class" licensed Asbestos Removalist contractor to remove the actual asbestos. The in-house staff also need to be fully trained in asbestos, and must hold authority to order independent inspections etc, but don't need a license as such.

That level of efficiency could be improved upon if there wasn't demarcation as to who does what. But I couldn't find a contractor able to also do traffic management etc, and we had no intention of doing asbestos removal in-house. So 3 people it was.

As for the contractors, it was difficult getting a good one that's for sure but some are definitely better than others. They all take short cuts if you aren't on site however and that happens with pretty much all underground work. Been there, had this problem and won't do it again. Same goes for conduit installation and cable hauling - it's out of sight so all sorts of bad things happen if nobody's watching.