NBN Rollout Scrapped

[IFocus]

It's the lack of any objectivity amongst a very few devotees in the Labor camp which reduces their credibility.

Talking of objectivity where is your criticism of Liberal supporters of the same ilk or is that a hidden bias?

 

[Julia]

The Right are those beliefs consistent with humans increasing their position. That is to say, 'pro-life' in the basic biological sense.

Why do you say this? e.g. I'm probably slightly to the right of centre in a material and personal responsibility sense, but am pro abortion and pro euthanasia.

The Left are those beliefs consistent with humans decreasing their position. That is to say, 'pro-death' in the basic sense.
If you'd like me to detail why this is, I can, but the post will be long and non-NBN related .

Why not start a separate thread for this debate which would be interesting?

The issue is that you are trying to define a group of beliefs according to 'left and right' - whereas this is impossible.

Exactly so, as I've pointed out above.

An isolated belief can be characterized, for example 'offensive speech should be banned' is clearly Left,

I wouldn't say this is clearly Left at all.

'all property should be private' is clearly Right.

Yep, no argument there but someone else may have a different view.

However if a (confused) person holds both of these beliefs, he can only be graded on the spectrum.
Libertarians, for instance (which I believe is more or less the same as a classical liberal), hold beliefs on both sides (although mostly on the right). Regarding them being 'social left', not necessarily. Typically on immigration, left.

Probably disagree here.

On abortion, divided. On race/class/gender, right (no affirmative action, no quotas, no disparity targeting privileges)

This should go to the mostly Right convention of personal choice, personal responsibility, but I acknowledge the pro abortion lobby is more often considered Right.

. On social conventions, to be logically consistent with 'liberty' they are mostly left (gay marriage fine, incest fine, polygamy fine, public nudity fine etc). On freedom of speech and action, right (full free speech, all non-rights-violating actions fine).

Far be it from me to defend the ultra Left but I think to attribute to them that all the above practices are 'fine' is a step too far.
I can't think of anyone I know who would consider either incest or polygamy fine.

So all up, it doesn't seem either reasonable or practicable to attribute any specific characteristics to the political "Left" or "Right". Most of us are a fairly healthy mixture of both.

 

[So_Cynical]

In fairness Julia, that sums up about 90% of ASF; SC merely stands out because he is one of the few lefties posting on a right-wing website.

Eh?

ASF is not a right wing website, it's a stock investing forum.

SC stands out not because he is a lefty, but because when it comes to politics he is a troll.

That's a little harsh Wayne...even from you! not that i expect you to be objective, but at-least a little realistic would be nice...for a stock market forum ASF has alot of political content and that content is very heavily skewed to the right.

For example lets have a look at how the numbers stack up in the most popular Labor bashing threads.

• The Gillard Government - 28 pages
• Does Gillard inspire confidence? - 38 pages
• Poll: 2010 Federal Election- 64 pages
• Does Rudd inspire confidence? - 58 pages (started 24th-May-2008) Oldest bashing thread.
• Rudd Government failings vs. achievements - 19 pages (started April-2010)
• Poll: Flood Levy - Do you agree? - 14 pages

Total pages 221 at an average age of maybe 1 and a bit years.

--------------------------------------

And for comparison the 6 largest cap stocks.

• BHP - 114 pages (started 14th-May-2005)
• RIO - 31 pages (started 11th-June-2006)
• CBA - 20 pages (started 17th-August-2004)
• WBC - 8 pages (started 29th-August-2005)
• ANZ - 13 pages (stared 27th-April-2005)
• NAB - 16 pages (started 16th-July-2004)

Total pages 202 with an average age of about 3 and a half years.

For a stock investing forum, Labor bashing threads sure are popular. its almost as if the forum is dominated by right wing types who love nothing better than a good olde Labor bashing.

 

[wayneL]

SC

I think your being a bit precious about entirely justified criticisms of the government and the current batch of characters purporting to run the country. ASF is hardly a Liberal party love fest either with the previous mob copping it long and hard too. I would say they "government bashing" threads rather than Labor bashing"

Political threads are longer than specific stock threads because:

• There are over 3000 stocks, there is only on gu'mint.
• Politics is far more subjective than stock investing. In fact as proven in my 2010 thesis on the subject and elsewhere, socialists/social democrats are absolutely incapable of objective thought. It's genetic. :
• Tolerance of trollish posts which provoke multiple replies.
• Government policy does affect stock value/price.

Politics is intertwined with economics and the investing environment so it is natural that there is some political discussion.

As far as being a troll: If I wanted to waste the time, I could collate an extensive list of posts from you primarily intended to provoke... and you know it's true.

 

[GumbyLearner]

SC

I think your being a bit precious about entirely justified criticisms of the government and the current batch of characters purporting to run the country. ASF is hardly a Liberal party love fest either with the previous mob copping it long and hard too. I would say they "government bashing" threads rather than Labor bashing"

Political threads are longer than specific stock threads because:

• There are over 3000 stocks, there is only on gu'mint.
• Politics is far more subjective than stock investing. In fact as proven in my 2010 thesis on the subject and elsewhere, socialists/social democrats are absolutely incapable of objective thought. It's genetic. :
• Tolerance of trollish posts which provoke multiple replies.
• Government policy does affect stock value/price.

Politics is intertwined with economics and the investing environment so it is natural that there is some political discussion.

As far as being a troll: If I wanted to waste the time, I could collate an extensive list of posts from you primarily intended to provoke... and you know it's true.

I'm not wasting your time by replying to this am I WayneL.

I think you have a lot knowledge to share with others. As an individual I'm all ears. Keep on articulating mate.

 

[Slipperz]

Sooo

http://www.businessspectator.com.au...-phyics-pd20110223-EBRYU?OpenDocument&src=rot

Where is the drama?

Here is the drama.

This encapsulates the argument perfectly.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/let-a-hundred-flowers-bloom-in-broadband-field-20110223-1b5ib.html

Just keep chucking buckets of your money at our socialist government and look the other way, everything will be just fine :

 

[Logique]

This encapsulates the argument perfectly.http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/let-a-hundred-flowers-bloom-in-broadband-field-20110223-1b5ib.html...

Nationalization and centralization by stealth S, and not the only sector of the economy they have their eyes on. Health, mining, banking, all in the frame.

Two other factors I see in action:

- The "..I want super fast broadband and I want it now, the biggest the best, and I don't care what it costs.." crowd, who seem to make up most of the NBN-now foot-stampers.

- Pollies seeking a political legacy, some achievement to hang their hats on, or in fact any achievement, on the back of several false starts.

 

[Slipperz]

Nationalization and centralization by stealth S, and not the only sector of the economy they have their eyes on. Health, mining, banking, all in the frame.

Two other factors I see in action:

- The "..I want super fast broadband and I want it now, the biggest the best, and I don't care what it costs.." crowd, who seem to make up most of the NBN-now foot-stampers.

- Pollies seeking a political legacy, some achievement to hang their hats on, or in fact any achievement, on the back of several false starts.

Hang on a minute.

Wasn't that the elephant in the room that just stamped it's foot?

:22_yikes:

 

[trainspotter]

Here is the drama.

This encapsulates the argument perfectly.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/let-a-hundred-flowers-bloom-in-broadband-field-20110223-1b5ib.html

Just keep chucking buckets of your money at our socialist government and look the other way, everything will be just fine :

I especially liked this part of the article:-

The government has never been able to explain why, having promised to conduct a cost-benefit analysis before undertaking any infrastructure project, it refuses to do one for the biggest project in our history.

It has never been able to explain why, having argued for more competition in telecommunications, it is now creating a massive new government-owned fixed-line monopoly and legislating to make it virtually impossible for anyone to offer a competitive fixed line service.

Didn"t we sell Telstra for this exact same reason that the Government is now thrusting upon us and telling us how good it is to have this business model?

So_Cyclical ....... what's wrong petal? I think Tony Abbott is a goose. There I've said it. I think the Liberals in their current form are just as useless as the existing clowns we have in Guvmint now. There I've said it again. I think John Howard was fortunate enough to have a mining boom and global economics to assist him in wiping out the debt left by the Labor Party. There I have said it thrice now.

The ideaology of the Liberals running the country like a business and keeping debt under control intrigues me. The ideaology of the Labor Party of running up debt and using the country like a giant credit card confuses me.

Me ...... I just like to argue with anyone when they are WRONG ! Flame on peoples.

Why don't you go and start a new thread about the political leanings of ASF and leave the NBN thread for what it really is. A left wing commy pinko bashing exercise over a shiny blue cable that IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT for the future of the country if it is implemented correctly and targets the areas that REQUIRE it.

 

[trainspotter]

I also remember NBNMyths telling everyone in writing a few posts back that he dresses to the Left on occasions as well. No problem with that either.

Can't we just have one thread where politics does not enter into it please. I was quite enjoying NBNMyths aknowledgements and detailed responses. Some of the technobabble was beyond my tiny brain but HEY .... it was stimulating at least.

AND the detail was extraordinary. He has a plethora of information at his fingertips which means he is very very studied on the subject. Should go on Mastermind or something like that. I can see it now:-

Magnús Magnússon - NBNMyths your topic is a ....... "SHINY BLUE CABLE"

NBNMyths - Yes that is right but it is not really that shiny.

Magnús Magnússon - Whatever

:jump:

 

[awg]

Really? I haven't found that. Left and right always appear fairly clear-cut to me, with the blurring only being caused by lack of logical/moral consistency in the persons beliefs.

haha..I am like Genghis Khan on some things and all the way with Gough on others.

peeps tend to become more conservative as they age

If I wasnt too lazy, would chuck up a new thread with poll..left/right/(neutral/dunno/mixed)

re the NBN, I am likewise confused

 

[NBNMyths]

Here is the drama.

This encapsulates the argument perfectly.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/let-a-hundred-flowers-bloom-in-broadband-field-20110223-1b5ib.html

Just keep chucking buckets of your money at our socialist government and look the other way, everything will be just fine :

No, it encapsulates Turnbull's position perfectly. As usual, his article is full of errors and deception. eg:

"Right now 30 per cent of Australian homes are passed by the hybrid fibre coaxial pay TV cables of Telstra and Optus. These systems can, and in some places do, run at 100Mbps, the highest speed promised by the new network."​

1. Incorrect. It's more like 25% of homes, but only in a few areas of a few cities.

2. While the network can run at 100Mbps, user speeds cannot. HFC is a shared network, and the 100Mbps is per node of the network. So unless you're the only user on that node, you won't get anything like 100Mbps. This is why Optus and Telstra don't advertise 100Mbps cable speeds anymore.

3. The highest speed promised by the NBN is 1Gbps, not 100Mbps.

4. There is currently no agreement or even proposed agreement to decomission the Optus HFC network for broadband connections.

I just picked one paragraph and found four demonstrably false or misleading statements.

Then there Turnbull's curious statements like:

"The right approach to our broadband needs should not be one size or one technology fits all. It should target under-serviced areas immediately and bring them up to the highest standards available in our cities."​

Ummm. Isn't that what the NBN is all about?

The Coalition plan takes "under serviced areas" to 12Mbps, which is most certainly not "the highest standards available in our cities". Turnbull is openly contradicting himself, first saying that cities can currently get 100Mbps, then saying that a) We don't need that; and b) that's what "under-serviced areas" should have, even though his own policy doesn't deliver such speeds.


I can keep going if you'd like.

 

[Mofra]

- The "..I want super fast broadband and I want it now, the biggest the best, and I don't care what it costs.." crowd, who seem to make up most of the NBN-now foot-stampers.

I see this as an unfair generalisation. If any generalisation is going to me remotely correct (a difficulty in itself), it would be the pro-NBN crowd largely being involved with the industry, and those against it largely being not (on this thread anyway).

Nullas' post on the last page is an excellent example of a reasoned industry view.
Additionally yes there is a political agenda attached to the pros and cons, but any government that actually puts a plan in place for anything that lasts longer than their term in office is sadly a rare occurance on the modern Australian political landscape and needs to be acknowledged.

 

[Boggo]

This NBN joke is proving to to be just that, another broken promise that is either driven by the greens or influenced by a liberal stronghold (seat of Grey) that they have decided to bypass.

What a farce.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...-miss-out-on-nbn/story-e6frea83-1226011065944

 

[trainspotter]

Disappointing that these places are bypassed even though the shiny blue cable is running down the highway not that far away (according to the article).

Who decided on the 7% to miss out on this nation building exercise?

Why are they putting it above ground to create visual pollution? I thought they were utilising Telstras pits and subterranean network?

If the NBN fibre optic cable is being run in conjunction over the electricity poles does this mean that the fibre optic cable will run along the power cable connecting your house?

Anyone?

 

[nulla nulla]

So_Cyclical ....... what's wrong petal? I think Tony Abbott is a goose. There I've said it. I think the Liberals in their current form are just as useless as the existing clowns we have in Guvmint now. There I've said it again. I think John Howard was fortunate enough to have a mining boom and global economics to assist him in wiping out the debt left by the Labor Party. There I have said it thrice now.

The ideaology of the Liberals running the country like a business and keeping debt under control intrigues me. The ideaology of the Labor Party of running up debt and using the country like a giant credit card confuses me.

Me ...... I just like to argue with anyone when they are WRONG ! Flame on peoples.

You need to be more carefull in your contrarian posts TS, Waynel might think you are a nasty troll.

Nullas' post on the last page is an excellent example of a reasoned industry view.

Thanks Mofra, it's nothing personal or political, it is just good business.

3. The highest speed promised by the NBN is 1Gbps, not 100Mbps.

Imagine being able to trade, live, approximately 100 - 400 times faster than you can now. The fellows trading spi, currency etc etc would be able to execute more trades on tighter margins than they currently do. The opportunities for private individuals to set up robot trading system could get scary. Even us humble traders on the xao would be able to react to upward or downward spikes where we now miss more opportunities than we hit.

But...yes there is a but. The biggest handicap to internet speeds, will not be the cable or the isp you connect through. The biggest handicap to internet speed will be the server speed at the other end of your connection. A transfer over a 1 gigabit capable cable will still only run at todays speeds if the server at the other end is only running at 10-100 megabits. The slowest common denominator will determine your download/upload speeds.

 

[Slipperz]

Disappointing that these places are bypassed even though the shiny blue cable is running down the highway not that far away (according to the article).

Who decided on the 7% to miss out on this nation building exercise?

Why are they putting it above ground to create visual pollution? I thought they were utilising Telstras pits and subterranean network?

If the NBN fibre optic cable is being run in conjunction over the electricity poles does this mean that the fibre optic cable will run along the power cable connecting your house?

Anyone?

I kinda presumed they would put it underground.

Common sense and asthetics would see a bit of money being spent on putting power and communications underground.

Storm proof our power and communications services and make our living environment better.

Hanging our critical infrastructure on poles at the mercy of an increasing volatile climate is hardly the optimal solution.

 

[Slipperz]

No, it encapsulates Turnbull's position perfectly. As usual, his article is full of errors and deception. eg:

"Right now 30 per cent of Australian homes are passed by the hybrid fibre coaxial pay TV cables of Telstra and Optus. These systems can, and in some places do, run at 100Mbps, the highest speed promised by the new network."​

1. Incorrect. It's more like 25% of homes, but only in a few areas of a few cities.

2. While the network can run at 100Mbps, user speeds cannot. HFC is a shared network, and the 100Mbps is per node of the network. So unless you're the only user on that node, you won't get anything like 100Mbps. This is why Optus and Telstra don't advertise 100Mbps cable speeds anymore.

3. The highest speed promised by the NBN is 1Gbps, not 100Mbps.

4. There is currently no agreement or even proposed agreement to decomission the Optus HFC network for broadband connections.

I just picked one paragraph and found four demonstrably false or misleading statements.

Then there Turnbull's curious statements like:

"The right approach to our broadband needs should not be one size or one technology fits all. It should target under-serviced areas immediately and bring them up to the highest standards available in our cities."​

Ummm. Isn't that what the NBN is all about?

The Coalition plan takes "under serviced areas" to 12Mbps, which is most certainly not "the highest standards available in our cities". Turnbull is openly contradicting himself, first saying that cities can currently get 100Mbps, then saying that a) We don't need that; and b) that's what "under-serviced areas" should have, even though his own policy doesn't deliver such speeds.


I can keep going if you'd like.

You'll have to excuse me if I suggest you can keep your ideas of true and false to yourself.

I'm not even sure half the babble you keep spouting is the truth.

In fact you probably are lying through your teeth about a lot of this.

 

[boofhead]

The Telstra conduits/pits NBN will use are probably more city centric. I know as a child watching Telecom put the overhead lines underground they would cut the PVC tubing so it could wrap the wires then dirt thrown over it. It has no strength to hold shape so you can't push the fibre through it - it could be flattish in places. Also could push against the current copper wiring and damage it. Also it has long been said NBN will use overhead and underground.

As for the trading. Raw speed may help. Latency will be an issue too - that is why major institutionals put servers physically closer to stockmarket servers.

 

[IFocus]

You'll have to excuse me if I suggest you can keep your ideas of true and false to yourself.

I'm not even sure half the babble you keep spouting is the truth.

In fact you probably are lying through your teeth about a lot of this.

Rather than accuse do some home work, interesting watching myths using facts and others getting personal rather than than argument using facts.

You know when it gets personal the other side no longer have a viable argument.