More Religious Nuts

johenmo said:

Thanks GG. I actually have delisted scrip!!! Will also partake of some wine for my health (as Jesus said to Timothy) tonight.

Not RC so won't kiss the pope's ring.

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I've never kissed the Popes ring.

I have left that to Berlusconni,

He's kissed so many rings in his time, it would come natural to him.

gg

Timmy said:

Hope you get this sorted, Weird, and its nothing serious.

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I'm ok now, as finally I found, after the 5th attempt a Doctor that correctly diagnosed the issue - it was a stomach ulcer.

I am reading a book at the moment, Black Swan, which truly makes you think about what a so called 'expert' is. Mine you I would still visit a mechanic for car issues and a doctor for health issues - however I would not blindly follow anyone of their advice.

The initial news link of this thread is disturbing.

The Celestial Church of Christ, performing wilful violence that caused death of 12 year old, "The church members beat the boy repeatedly over a three-day period with reeds and belts and attached him to a cross for the last two days, the position in which he died."

I did a quick wiki search on "Celestial Church of Christ", I don't think you could compare them to any mainstream religious group. The religious nuts category is suiting.

johenmo said:

Incidentally there are plenty of religious nuts in the world, and non-religious nuts too. Don't think anyone deserves to be bashed to death, regardless of circumstances. And I think I'm right in saying it's agreement that peopel shouldn't hide behind/use things like religion to support their actions -which are just plain wrong.

Cheers

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Thank you for opinion, thats all i was after when starting this thread, was a discussion as to the right and wrong aspect of using religion to justify cruelty and torment in this day and age and other peoples points of view, not to be berated as a "ranter and raver", hence a forum.

It seems painfully obvious now that regardless of peoples beliefs , this sort of act cannot and should not be tolerated by society today, which to me is fantastic that we can all agree on that point.

As for GG wanting to keep religion off ASF, that's why we love him , his ability to keep these forums alive through witty banter and controversial statements , lets face it, i go out of my way to read his posts and see who he is winding up next. !!!!

more religious nuts terrorising a female journalist

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/06/2617502.htm

She clearly deserved it Gooner.

bellenuit said:

There is a huge difference between the two viewpoints. The difference being - runs on the board.

As scientific knowledge progressed, much of what was not understood, became understood. Those who stuck to the scientific method eventually discovered the answers. Not to everything, of course. But the amount of progress has been enormous and is accelerating.

On the other side you have those who ascribed much of what was not understood to an interventionist God. In EVERY case, they have either lost out to science as scientific knowledge increased, or it still remains not understood.

It is like a tournament with hundreds of thousands of games being played, but only two sides participating. 90% of the games have being won by the same side and the remaining 10% are still in progress and yet to be decided.

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Not quite so fast there.

A biblical belief is that God created a physical universe governed by laws. These laws can be investigated and discovered. Many of the early modern scientists were devout Christians - Newton, Kepler, Pascal, Faraday etc.

This in no way excludes God from acting IN his universe, or from answering prayer, or from including moral laws and consequences, as well as physical laws.

To suggest that discovering physical laws disproves God is to totally misunderstand the basic premise of Christianity (and others).

refined silver said:

Many of the early modern scientists were devout Christians - Newton, Kepler, Pascal, Faraday etc.

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That is misleading. As far as I'm aware, Newton was not the typical christian, and Pascal of course among many things known for his Pascal's Wager. It could be suggested that his religious actions were just insurance. Regardless, we must also consider that these men still lived in extremely religious times, so it should be expected that they are more likely to be religious than those today.

The vast majority of today's great thinkers are atheist, agnostic or spiritual, but not religious.

To suggest that discovering physical laws disproves God is to totally misunderstand the basic premise of Christianity

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Nothing we have discovered disproves God, and few intelligent people would much such a statement. However, we have discovered much that was previously explained by religion, enough that many people seriously question the existence of a diety, and even rule it out completely.

About two weeks ago there was a horrific story on TV about African tribes who have accepted Christianity, at least in theory, but still retain many ancient beliefs, customs and superstitions from their pre-Christian era, including a belief in witches.
The women of the tribe consult their priest about misfortune that has befallen them, such as sickness in the family, or crop failure resulting in famine. The priest claims that God has given him the power to identify witches disguised as children. During a church service he points to one of their children and declares the child to be a witch who is putting evil curses on the family and the tribe to cause their misfortune.
The priest, assisted by members of the congregation, then proceeds to subject the poor little kid (the witch) to various forms of torture such as beating hell out of them, dripping hot candle wax on their skin, burning their skin with firesticks, and various other barbaric acts.
The 'witch' is ostracised by the tribe, including the child's parents who usually end up disowning the 'witch', and banishing him or her from the tribe. Thousands of street kids are on the streets because the priest of their village declared them witches, and the tribe turfed them out.

The family of the 'witch' happily pay the priests around $200 for their witch-busting services. Rather then being upset that one of their children has been declared a witch, the mothers seem quite pleased that the evil witch has been revealed. The family relish joining in the torture of their own child.

It absolutely broke my heart to see the graphic footage of these poor innocent little kids getting beaten and their skin burnt by hot wax or burning sticks - all in the name of God - while the poor little kid cried its eyes out.
It's times like this when I think 'OK, if God exists and he's a God of compassion and love, as taught in the Christian religion, why does he sit by and allow that sort of thing to happen to innocent children - why doesn't he intervene'?

Not just in third world countries

Babies have died and been infected with herpes from circumcision. This story is New York.

Extract follows

"Under Jewish law, the mohel is required to draw blood from the circumcision site, ostensibly to remove what the Old Testament refers to as "impurities" and what we might interpret today as germs. The thought, back then, was that a flow of blood away from the circumcision site would carry these potentially dangerous entities away from the baby. But the traditional way to do this, a practice called Metzizah bi peh, calls for the mohel to use his mouth and suck out the blood.

To be sure, this peculiar means of viral spread remains rare. Nevertheless, there have been 11 cases of male babies who contracted herpes following circumcisions that included Metzizah bi peh reported over the past 5 years in New York, Canada, and Israel. In 2005, there were 4 infected babies in New York City and all of them were circumcised by the same New York-based mohel (who only recently was persuaded to take a prolonged vacation from his line of work).

According to Dr. Thomas Frieden, New York City's Commissioner of Health, coincidence is not an explanatory option. "There is no reasonable doubt that the practice of Metzizah bi peh has infected several infants in New York City with the herpes virus, including one child who has died and another who has evidence of brain damage," said Dr. Frieden."

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/545756

"Cop charged after church camp 'exorcism'

The Lutheran Church has confirmed a police officer has been charged with false imprisonment and aggravated assault after an alleged exorcism at a youth camp in South Australia.

Three camp leaders have been charged over the incident, including the 28-year-old off-duty senior constable.

A 15-year-old boy was allegedly restrained for 12 hours after complaining of stomach pains.

The church says 260 youths attended the camp in the Barossa Valley in April.

The president of the Lutheran Church in South Australia and the Northern Territory, the Reverend Robert Voigt, says the church is providing counselling to the boy and his parents.

"What I would like to say to parents is please continue to trust us," he said.

"We have acted quickly in relation to this event."

The police officer has been suspended from duty and the three camp leaders have been released on bail."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/07/2619409.htm

Wrong, wrong and wrong ... religious nut again, but very outside the practice of their membership, with consideration to the Lutheran Church being more mainstream, pretty much a scout leader abusing their authority. Yup, it's sick.

Can give very sick examples of non-religious abuse of powers, but I think we get the point.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/strange...tree-stump-looks-like-mary-20090710-dfcx.html

Thousands of Irish Catholics have flocked this week to a County Limerick church to pray at the stump of a recently cut willow that many observers say, has the silhouette of the Virgin Mary.

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Trevor_S said:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/strange...tree-stump-looks-like-mary-20090710-dfcx.html

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"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God"

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... On the other hand God, if you just so happen to leave something our imaginations can interpret as a likeness, we'll go flock to it.

Religion gives Christianity a bad name.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/catholics-riot-over-protestant-parade-20090714-dj07.html

Masked and hooded Belfast Catholics hurled petrol bombs, fireworks and other makeshift weapons at police on Monday

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The meaning behind the sermon on the mount escaped these guys ? You know, the sermon made by CHRIST, the one the espouse to follow by being CHRISTians ?

Blessed are the peacemakers, blessed are the meek... this ring a bell ?

Trevor_S said:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/catholics-riot-over-protestant-parade-20090714-dj07.html



The meaning behind the sermon on the mount escaped these guys ? You know, the sermon made by CHRIST, the one the espouse to follow by being CHRISTians ?

Blessed are the peacemakers, blessed are the meek... this ring a bell ?

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No problem, Trevor - those fellers would have been in the confessional box within a day or two of hurling petrol bombs etc.
'Forgive me Father, for I have sinned'.
The priest tells them they've been naughty boys, don't do it again, say half a dozen Hail Mary's and off they go with a clean slate.
They get to do whatever they want, then head off to Mass to square things up with the Lord!
It's a great system - a fine example of religious nuttery at its best!

bunyip said:

No problem, Trevor - those fellers would have been in the confessional box within a day or two of hurling petrol bombs etc.
'Forgive me Father, for I have sinned'.
The priest tells them they've been naughty boys, don't do it again, say half a dozen Hail Mary's and off they go with a clean slate.
They get to do whatever they want, then head off to Mass to square things up with the Lord!
It's a great system - a fine example of religious nuttery at its best!

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Although I am no longer a follower of any religion, I think it would be wrong to put what is happening in Northern Ireland either in the last few days or in the past 50 years down to religious nuttery.

The NI conflict was often mistakenly seen as a religious war. It never was. It was a civil war where, due to historical reasons, the political divide also coincided with the religious divide.

Brevity forces me to make generalisations, but the republican side originates from the original inhabitants of that part of Ireland and Ireland was a country that was predominantly Catholic and the loyalist side are descendants of Scottish settlers/soldiers who arrived more recently and were of Protestant background. Republicans want NI to join the Irish Republic and have a one island state, as it originally was. The loyalists want to maintain NI as part of the UK as that was how all of Ireland was when they first went there (it was an English colony so to speak).

Had both sides been the same religion, I still believe you would have had pretty much the same conflict.

Although the religious divide reinforced the political divide, each side in the conflict weren't doing what they were doing on behalf of their religion. That was just coincidental.

The Catholic youths throwing petrol bombs and stones at police are not doing so on behalf of the Pope or on behalf of anyone in the Catholic Church. Like most modern youth, they probably never or rarely go to Church and don't give a stuff about religion. They certainly don't go to confession to ask for forgiveness for their deeds as you suggest and then start all over again. From what I have read, they are being incited to violence by republican factions that want the peace process to fail.

There are many examples of religious nuttery, but this is not one of them.

bellenuit said:

Although I am no longer a follower of any religion, I think it would be wrong to put what is happening in Northern Ireland either in the last few days or in the past 50 years down to religious nuttery.

The NI conflict was often mistakenly seen as a religious war. It never was. It was a civil war where, due to historical reasons, the political divide also coincided with the religious divide.

Brevity forces me to make generalisations, but the republican side originates from the original inhabitants of that part of Ireland and Ireland was a country that was predominantly Catholic and the loyalist side are descendants of Scottish settlers/soldiers who arrived more recently and were of Protestant background. Republicans want NI to join the Irish Republic and have a one island state, as it originally was. The loyalists want to maintain NI as part of the UK as that was how all of Ireland was when they first went there (it was an English colony so to speak).

Had both sides been the same religion, I still believe you would have had pretty much the same conflict.

Although the religious divide reinforced the political divide, each side in the conflict weren't doing what they were doing on behalf of their religion. That was just coincidental.

The Catholic youths throwing petrol bombs and stones at police are not doing so on behalf of the Pope or on behalf of anyone in the Catholic Church. Like most modern youth, they probably never or rarely go to Church and don't give a stuff about religion. They certainly don't go to confession to ask for forgiveness for their deeds as you suggest and then start all over again. From what I have read, they are being incited to violence by republican factions that want the peace process to fail.

There are many examples of religious nuttery, but this is not one of them.

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Nice summary bellenuit. Can I add one thing (& just imho) - this violence more or less disappeared for the past 10 years or so, which happened to coincide with good economic opportunities in NI (global boom etc.). I am not surprised the violence has resurfaced with diminished economic opportunity recently.

bellenuit said:

Although I am no longer a follower of any religion, I think it would be wrong to put what is happening in Northern Ireland either in the last few days or in the past 50 years down to religious nuttery.

The NI conflict was often mistakenly seen as a religious war. It never was. It was a civil war where, due to historical reasons, the political divide also coincided with the religious divide.

Brevity forces me to make generalisations, but the republican side originates from the original inhabitants of that part of Ireland and Ireland was a country that was predominantly Catholic and the loyalist side are descendants of Scottish settlers/soldiers who arrived more recently and were of Protestant background. Republicans want NI to join the Irish Republic and have a one island state, as it originally was. The loyalists want to maintain NI as part of the UK as that was how all of Ireland was when they first went there (it was an English colony so to speak).

Had both sides been the same religion, I still believe you would have had pretty much the same conflict.

Although the religious divide reinforced the political divide, each side in the conflict weren't doing what they were doing on behalf of their religion. That was just coincidental.

The Catholic youths throwing petrol bombs and stones at police are not doing so on behalf of the Pope or on behalf of anyone in the Catholic Church. Like most modern youth, they probably never or rarely go to Church and don't give a stuff about religion. They certainly don't go to confession to ask for forgiveness for their deeds as you suggest and then start all over again. From what I have read, they are being incited to violence by republican factions that want the peace process to fail.

There are many examples of religious nuttery, but this is not one of them.

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I agree....the problems in Northern Ireland are not religious in nature. I know quite a bit about Northern Ireland and quite a bit about the Irish Catholic church, thanks to my Irish wife who was born and raised a Catholic in Ireland. She practiced the religion for the first quarter of a century of her life until she rejected it because she could no longer embrace its teachings and values.

The 'religious nuttery' I was referring to is the belief that no matter what your sins, they're forgiven as soon as you confess them to a priest in a confession box.
This outdated practice fosters an attitude in some people that they can commit sin with impunity, secure in the belief that each visit to the priest in the confession box will wipe their slate clean.

I'd be very surprised indeed if at least some of the Irish petrol bombers don't go to confession to ask for forgiveness for their deeds and then start all over again.
Many figures from the Melbourne underworld and the US Mafia are/were well known for their regular visits to the confessional box.

Getting back on track:

Boy starved for not saying Amen

"TWO women members of a fanatical religious cult are accused of starving a toddler to death after the boy refused to say "Amen" after meals.

...

Antoinette told her followers to pray for the boy's resurrection after he died, police said.

She ultimately placed his body inside a suitcase that the cult members hid behind a house in Philadelphia for more than a year before it was found by investigators, police said."

Timmy said:

Nice summary bellenuit. Can I add one thing (& just imho) - this violence more or less disappeared for the past 10 years or so, which happened to coincide with good economic opportunities in NI (global boom etc.). I am not surprised the violence has resurfaced with diminished economic opportunity recently.

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So often I see commentary on this issue with Northern Ireland either complicated or simplified and usually due the only knowledge and influence being that which is formed by the media.
In most cases a level ignorance of reality and history is evident and the attitude that "I know FA about the place but" combined with a bit of media sensationalism and we are all suddenly experts.

Have a think about this for a minute...

Vikings and French also invaded Ireland, and Irish have no argument with them today. Vikings who invaded Ireland don't claim to be Norwegian after 1100 years! Normans don't claim to be French after 800 years! Nor do they in Britain, so English have no quarrel with them today. And Welsh (original British) don't have any problem with Germany because of Anglo-Saxon invasion, etc etc.

But Protestants or 'British' of Northern Ireland, after 350 years, cannot unite with Irish.

To understand from Australian point of view, imagine if a million Indonesians settled in Queensland, cordoned off a tract of land to give themselves an artificial majority and claimed it was legitimately part of Indonesia, and even backed it up with elections!
Now imagine the year is 2350 AD and they still refuse to recognise they have any connection to Australia, and they parade down the streets celebrating a 300 year old battle against Australian Army.

The marches in Northern Ireland basically celebrate Protestant British victories from battles in the 17th century! The Irish don't celebrate their 16th or 20th century victories, not even in the Republic. The Protestants are entitled to live in Ireland but surely they should recognise that the Irish are also entitled to equal respect in their own country!

No simple solution there, but you can't expect the Irish to just forget everything while part of the country is under British occupation? Would you suggest forgetting everything if Indonesia captured Queensland? I doubt it.

Would this be a religious issue or a political invasion issue.

Based on the some of the comments I have seen here the simple bogan primary school level history answer would be that its religious because of those Muslims.

Religion in this situation is just another way of identifying the potential supporters of any "side", stick to the topic of religion and the inherent issues associated with the various beliefs rather than mixing apples and oranges.