More Religious Nuts

refined silver said:

To prove the Christian God doesn't exist is very difficult.

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I disagree. If you do a thorough research into how the 'one God' came about it's clear he's just made up. Just like Marduk, Zues, Ra, Inti, and all the other ancient mythological beings. God is a myth. It's all right there in front of us, just read a bit of ancient history. The idea unfolds right before you like a fairy tale. It's quite amazing how simple it is actually.

Old Mate said:

There's just so many contradictions and flaws in the Christian beliefs. Eg: the whole hey he's all powerful, yet he can't banish the devil and eradicate the world of all evil. Christians will reply oh it's all part of his plan or something. What does an all powerful being need a plan for? What possible contigency could occur in the future that he needs to plan for right now?

Yeah I suppose you're right actually. People need to realise that there is no need to belief in this being we refer to as God. Why do we have to go to church every Sunday and worship this supremely insecure being in order to be a good person and not be punished for all eternity?

By the way I don't mean to offend anyone in this thread, I just belive quite passionately in that religion shouldn't have a place in the world anymore.

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Unfortunately, most people don't reject the God of the bible - they reject the God of their own making.

"If I were God, I'd destroy all evil. Therefore, if there was a God, He'd destroy all evil. Since there is evil, there is no God". Great logic working one direction, doesn't really work the other way.

The bible never claims that God wanted to destroy all evil in this world, nor is there any account of when he tries, and fails, so it's hardly logical that we consider it a contradiction that he hasn't. Evil existed even in paradise, and God did nothing about it except warn Adam and Eve away from the knowledge of it.

Why do we need to worship a "supremely insecure" God? Well, that might be the God of your imagination, but not the God of the bible. If you're ever in the mood for some bloodthirsty action, have a good read of Judges. There are plenty of times where God says to his people "If you want to do things your way, go right ahead" - and by the next generation, they've gotten themselves into such a mess, they call back on God. God never says "Don't leave, I'll give you more blessings/land/wine/milk/honey/cookies". Any time anyone doesn't want to worship Him, He lets them go - but the consequences are always laid out in front of them, and come to pass.

Worship of God doesn't change God; it doesn't give Him what He wants, except insofar that what He wants, is to give us what we want. Worshipping God puts us in our place as a created being - A creation that has a purpose and has been designed to live in a particular way.

We're not designed to allow a member of society to murder one another, because we were designed for an interlinked community, and the death of one person is designed to evoke loss in many others.

We are not designed to have "5 year renewable marriage contracts" or open marriages, because most people crave security, and there needs to be a stable secure environment to bring up children in.

The list goes on. There may have been some odd ceremonial laws, but no moral law of God is purely arbitary - they're all designed for society's stability and happiness, if not always an individual's happiness.

Our system of society is so heavily influenced God and Christian values, we think we don't need God, because we have everything He's given us. Would you prefer to live in a country with a longer history of being Atheist? Russia, perhaps? What about more traditional tribal spirituality? Do you like Africa? How about a country that has been Bhuddist? Would you like China's human rights records here? Or would you like to go live in Iran at the moment? Sharia law is bringing Iran into the 21st century, no? Can you think of a country that does not have a recent Christian influence, that is a better place to live than America, Britian, Europe or Australia, which has?

Can a person be good without God? Of course, but our nature is against it. Can a person be bad with God? Of course, we're all fallen people. But make no mistake - our laws and our values come from our Christian heritage. Rather than say society has no more need of God, I'd rather say society doesn't know how much it needs God until He's gone.

Sunder said:

But make no mistake - our laws and our values come from our Christian heritage.

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And where did the Christian heritage come from?

This is the problem religion has. Our values and morals did not just drop out of the sky as you would have us believe. They were established over thousands, no millions, of years of co-habitation. To think that they were gifted to us through a touch of a finger from a man in the sky is just plain kooky to say the least.

All religion has done is carve these morals in stone, for good, and bad....

Gravity is a precise meausre. Dropping yourself off a building only proves you accelerated faster than a speed of 0. It doesn't prove gravity.

It's just one example of something that can't be 100% proven, such as the existance or non-existance of god. You can either accept that he exists, using whatever you believe in, or accept that he doesn't exist becuase of science. Neither is known 100% to be correct until one is proven.

You can't tell me gravity has been proven to be 100% correct, becuase it's impossible. We can only assume by many observations that it is there and will continue to exist for as long as our observations of gravity are continually proven to be correct.

kennas said:

And where did the Christian heritage come from?

This is the problem religion has. Our values and morals did not just drop out of the sky as you would have us believe. They were established over thousands, no millions, of years of co-habitation. To think that they were gifted to us through a touch of a finger from a man in the sky is just plain kooky to say the least.

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And yet, civilisations just as old, or older, seem to be worse off than the ones who have a Christian heritage. Shouldn't they have developed to be better than the younger civilisations?

Doesn't it make sense that without a moral compass, we devolve simply back to survival of the fittest and nothing more? Where people in power, abuse that power for their own gain on a social level, and people gratify their own desires at other's expense, at a personal level?

As you can't change people. Each to their own.

But for F Sake! Stop killing each other!! Geez I though a basic concept for religion was tolerance and love. Must be a selective process for the committed.

beamstas .. I bow to your superior knowledge on gravity and its peculiar nature of wanting to stop my unaided flying. You are right ... gravity is not proven ... it is the earth that sucks !

where:
F is the magnitude of the gravitational force between the two point masses,
G is the gravitational constant,
m1 is the mass of the first point mass,
m2 is the mass of the second point mass, and
r is the distance between the two point masses.

Assuming SI units, F is measured in newtons (N), m1 and m2 in kilograms (kg), r in meters (m), and the constant G is approximately equal to 6.673×10−11 N m2 kg−2. The value of the constant G was first accurately determined from the results of the Cavendish experiment conducted by the British scientist Henry Cavendish in 1798 ... ooooooooooops ... Does this mean gravity has been proven?

Green08 said:

Geez I though a basic concept for religion was tolerance and love.

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What in the world gave you that idea???

Not all religions are peaceful. Judaism, the basis of both Christianity and Islam is definitely not.

Christianity is meant to be in the "forebearance" stage. According to core Christian beliefs, God has revealed Himself as much as He is intending to, and has told us He is coming back. He is, and as a consequence, we are, meant to be forebearing upon all non-believers, to give them every opportunity to repent.

Confusing Old Testament Judaism, where God's people were told to wipe out every trace of impurity, and New Testament, where God tells us to be tolerant of non-believers, is why so many people seem to think "fundamental" Christianity is violent and bloodthirsty. The Old Testament is included in the bible as history, not as the covenant and law Christians are meant to follow now.

Religion, at least some religions value nuts and berries quite highly.

I just thought I should mention it.

Perhaps the title of the thread should be changed to "More Religious Nuts and Berries"

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Pagan-Wiccan-Religion-3207/Diet.htm

gg

Sunder said:

and New Testament, where God tells us to be tolerant of non-believers, is why so many people seem to think "fundamental" Christianity is violent and bloodthirsty.

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Crusades.
Spanish Inquisition.
Forced conversion during conquest and colonial rule.
Destruction of indigenous cultures.
Witch hunts.
etc etc

What in the world gave you that idea???

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Ok I have not read the bible or any religous piece. I know they update them I would have thought that if "god" said something it would be ingraved in stone and never changed.

Agree with Kennas, It is made up as the religion process and needs certain goals to be achieved.

We watched the History Channel on the 7 deadly sins, that was interesting they were made up, 8 at first, changed, Dante came up with the levels in Purgatory, Catholics introduced confession.

I can see there blood thirsty, territorial self gratifing nuts. Have been and always will be.

kennas said:

Crusades.
Spanish Inquisition.
Forced conversion during conquest and colonial rule.
Destruction of indigenous cultures.
Witch hunts.
etc etc

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And your point is?

Because Christians have engaged in some violent activities in the past, the core of the religion is violent?? The bible doesn't teach it, unless you bring an OT command into NT times. That doesn't make Christianity violent - that just makes some mistaken Christians in particular times violent.

Green08 said:

Ok I have not read the bible or any religous piece. I know they update them I would have thought that if "god" said something it would be ingraved in stone and never changed.

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The translation of the bible changes, not the content. i.e, removing thee, thou, and thine and replacing with... err, you, you and yours in different contexts.

The bible has never been "changed". The Old Testament is identical to the Talmud, and "substantially similar" to parts of the Koran.

It's just that Christians added the New Testament, there was no revision of the OT to make it consistent with the NT, unlike the Koran, which altered the OT to fit the new writtings of Mohommad. (All speculative, but of course, strong evidence points to it)

Sunder said:

And your point is?

Because Christians have engaged in some violent activities in the past, the core of the religion is violent??

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'Some violent activities'. lol

I thought you were saying Christianity had the wood on Islam and Judaism.

Point is, it does not.

All those activites above were church sanctioned or at least tacitly supported.

kennas said:

'Some violent activities'. lol

I thought you were saying Christianity had the wood on Islam and Judaism.

Point is, it does not.

All those activites above were church sanctioned or at least tacitly supported.

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We've already brought up the violent activities of Atheists, so no need to cover that ground... Should we ban atheism as well?

In terms of biblical texts, the bible does indeed have the "the wood" on Islam and Judaism as the peaceful religion, if I am understanding what you are trying to say.

Out of the three Abrahamic religions, Christianity is the only one to renounce the need to "clean" the impure. Islam still calls for jihad against non-believers, and Judaism hasn't had any "updates".

And edit after your edit: And I agree CHURCH sanctioned. It's not biblically sanctioned. In fact, many verses of the new testament prohibit that kind of activity.

Suder , Please tell us your religious beliefs .
^That way its easier to fathom your responses to others

beamstas said:

Gravity is a precise meausre. Dropping yourself off a building only proves you accelerated faster than a speed of 0. It doesn't prove gravity.

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Precise? Is it the same on the Moon, or Uranus?
Your're accelerating right now reading this in your chair. Moving through space and time. It's real. It exists. Prove gravity does not exist 100% please.

It's just one example of something that can't be 100% proven, such as the existance or non-existance of god.

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God will never bee proven.
Everyone must have a certain amount of agnostisism with their belief, or lack of, in a God. How much they admit too, depends on the person.

Sunder said:

Doesn't it make sense that without a moral compass, we devolve simply back to survival of the fittest and nothing more?

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Make perfect sense. Mankind developed religion as an essential mechanism to evolve, not devolve. Not just mankind, Neanderthals too. Maybe monkeys would develop a religion given enough time.
Oh wait ......

Bobby said:

Suder , Please tell us your religious beliefs .
^That way its easier to fathom your responses to others

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I'm an Evangelical Christian, if that means anything to you.

If it doesn't, it means I only believe what is written in the bible, and not the teachings of the church.

The church, like any other long lived organisation is full of terrible stories of abuse of it's power over its congregants and going against the very values it purportedly stands for, in the name of religion, but truly in the name of greed and power, because inherently, humans are sinful.

spooly74 said:

God will never bee proven.

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Maybe not the one in the Bible, but I'm open to what else might be out there, or pop up on the radar one day. I'd like something else to drop in just to put the religious nuts at peace. They'll actually have something real to pray to instead of a fairy tale. Really, very embarrassing when you think of it. All that praying to .... nothing.

kennas said:

Maybe not the one in the Bible, but I'm open to what else might be out there, or pop up on the radar one day.

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Fair enough. If pushed, I'd classify myself as an agnostic atheist too maybe