Your timeline is a bit off. They have 30 days to file an appeal. If an appeal goes to a hearing it will add a minimum of a few months to the process. Then of course they can appeal that decision if they want.
Your timeline is a bit off. They have 30 days to file an appeal. If an appeal goes to a hearing it will add a minimum of a few months to the process. Then of course they can appeal that decision if they want.
An appeal may or may not stop distributions to all pools (ie: an appeal re the futures pool will not stop distributions in the CFD pool).
You also have to have sufficient means to get legal representations to make appeals.
The appeal has to be based on Corp law.
So for instance in the CFD pool where not too many clients had a/c balance > 100K , the probability of an appeal is lower say to the futures pool where there were a lot more clients > 100K accounts.
I like to focus on the positive & if you look through my posts so far, I have only been wrong on the timeframes.
You also have to have sufficient means to get legal representations to make appeals.
The appeal has to be based on Corp law.
So for instance in the CFD pool where not too many clients had a/c balance > 100K , the probability of an appeal is lower say to the futures pool where there were a lot more clients > 100K accounts.
I like to focus on the positive & if you look through my posts so far, I have only been wrong on the timeframes.
skc
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I am quite committed to sell at the right price. But remember that my circumstances are unique to me and so while it may be the right decision for me to sell, it may not be the right decision for someone else.
My account balance at time of administration was only ~12% of my trading capital. So even if I take a 25% haircut on that it is literally only worth several bad trades. Plus if the sale is settled before 30 Jun, the after tax impact is no more than a few %. So it is a simple decision for me because of that.
If I did have 100% of my trading capital in there, however, it would be a substantially more difficult decision and my stance on selling now may be different.
I have contacted a couple of buyers... one has offered a price that I deemed too low and another is working on the paperwork to satisfy the Deloitte's processes, hopefully this week.
Time is in fact the variable that matters the most. As I said, the sell decision really depends on one's anticipation of the court process timeframe + his/her own opportunity cost.
Saw this in the Age.
The last line "clients should receive between 68 per cent and 100 per cent" is encouraging!
THE local fallout from the collapse of international derivatives trader MF Global is being played out in the New South Wales Supreme Court, where the liquidator, Deloitte, is asking how it can allocate available sums to clients who are owed $309 million.
Twenty-one barristers lined up before Justice Ashley Black, representing the liquidator, and the interests of 11,000 individual clients who held 16,000 accounts with MF Global Australia.
Fabian Gleeson, SC, said when the firm was placed in administration on November 1 last year, $150 million was held in accounts. The liquidator has been able to recover $82 million of the $167 million owed by counterparties, and ''there are some substantial recoveries to come'', he said. A further $30 million in futures money held by the Australian Securities Exchange was being claimed by both the British and Australian liquidators.
MF Global, one of the biggest bankruptcies in US history, left clients stranded after it admitted to using $700 million from client accounts to fund a liquidity shortfall brought about by a multibillion-dollar bad trade it made for itself on European bonds.
Deloitte has estimated clients should receive between 68 per cent and 100 per cent. Unsecured creditors were set to receive between 6.6 ¢ and 18.5 ¢ in the dollar.
The hearing continues.
The last line "clients should receive between 68 per cent and 100 per cent" is encouraging!
THE local fallout from the collapse of international derivatives trader MF Global is being played out in the New South Wales Supreme Court, where the liquidator, Deloitte, is asking how it can allocate available sums to clients who are owed $309 million.
Twenty-one barristers lined up before Justice Ashley Black, representing the liquidator, and the interests of 11,000 individual clients who held 16,000 accounts with MF Global Australia.
Fabian Gleeson, SC, said when the firm was placed in administration on November 1 last year, $150 million was held in accounts. The liquidator has been able to recover $82 million of the $167 million owed by counterparties, and ''there are some substantial recoveries to come'', he said. A further $30 million in futures money held by the Australian Securities Exchange was being claimed by both the British and Australian liquidators.
MF Global, one of the biggest bankruptcies in US history, left clients stranded after it admitted to using $700 million from client accounts to fund a liquidity shortfall brought about by a multibillion-dollar bad trade it made for itself on European bonds.
Deloitte has estimated clients should receive between 68 per cent and 100 per cent. Unsecured creditors were set to receive between 6.6 ¢ and 18.5 ¢ in the dollar.
The hearing continues.
CanOz
Home runs feel good, but base hits pay bills!
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Has anyone gone to jail for this massive fraud yet? Or is this waste of a human heart still in court trying to somehow defend himself???
Really sh**s me...:frown:
CanOz
Really sh**s me...:frown:
CanOz
Corzine is a politically connected democrat who has been praised by Obama and Biden and has previously raised a truckload of cash for their reelection. IF anything happens and thats a very big IF, you can almost guarantee it will be after the US presidential election. That said I wouldn't hold my breath, seems to have dodged quite a lot of punishment for scandal and stupidity in the past (including near death after not wearing a seatbelt going at ~140K/PH with lights and sirens and getting into a crash on the way to the governors mansion to broker an apology between a radio host and a womens basketball team, some emergency! Oh and cheating on wife as governor, putting mistress on govt payroll etc)
CanOz
Home runs feel good, but base hits pay bills!
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I used to think only the Republicans were the evil empire, but you know its the money, its makes them all truly do EVIL things. I feel so bad for the American people, a wonderful bunch on the whole...But oh do i hate their government!
I really wish they could change things. They really are no better than a second world political system now.
CanOz
According to a MF Global source the court hearing went according to plan.
We will now have to wait for the Judge to come back & then wait 30 day's for any appeals to his directions.
We should be receiving an email soon from the Admin.
Lets hope for all concerned its an early Xmas present & we get very close to a 100% return for those holding cash positions.
We will now have to wait for the Judge to come back & then wait 30 day's for any appeals to his directions.
We should be receiving an email soon from the Admin.
Lets hope for all concerned its an early Xmas present & we get very close to a 100% return for those holding cash positions.
This link to an audio interview about MFG and another broker PFG Best who has just gone under with $$$$$$$$$ client funds missing, was posted on another forum but thought I would post it here and incredible to think that after MFG its been allowed to happen again, NOTHING has changed, if you trade futures and particularly the US markets you will find it both interesting and very disturbing, your money aint safe.
http://www.financialsensenewshour.com/broadcast/fsn2012-0714-3.mp3
As to the regulators in the USA, saying they are incompetent is being kind.
Also incredible to believe that since 2008 although many chargeable offences have been committed by the big financial institutions and brokers but NOT 1 of them and NOT 1 person has been prosecuted, charged or held to account, even John Corzine is free and currently running fund raisers for the PRESIDENT of the United States even though as much as a billion dollars is still missing.
Seems to me if your very rich or politicly powerful or a big institution in the USA then your chances of prosecution for theft, deception, lying and f@cking peoples lives is very very low, talk about a cartel over there running things, when President Reagan famously described the Soviet Union as the Evil Empire he had that so wrong, the Evil Empire is based on Wall Street, New York
http://www.financialsensenewshour.com/broadcast/fsn2012-0714-3.mp3
As to the regulators in the USA, saying they are incompetent is being kind.
Also incredible to believe that since 2008 although many chargeable offences have been committed by the big financial institutions and brokers but NOT 1 of them and NOT 1 person has been prosecuted, charged or held to account, even John Corzine is free and currently running fund raisers for the PRESIDENT of the United States even though as much as a billion dollars is still missing.
Seems to me if your very rich or politicly powerful or a big institution in the USA then your chances of prosecution for theft, deception, lying and f@cking peoples lives is very very low, talk about a cartel over there running things, when President Reagan famously described the Soviet Union as the Evil Empire he had that so wrong, the Evil Empire is based on Wall Street, New York
I have made a few calls to the MF Global desk about when we might be hearing from Justice Black.
The only clue about a possible date may be in the Aug 3 update where Chris has asked the MF Global Trustee to grant an extension to 30 Sep so he can provide provide the information from the judgement.
So maybe another 7 weeks of waiting ? I sure hope we all get our funds back by Xmas at the very least.
I wonder what the costs are for 1 year's administration.
The only clue about a possible date may be in the Aug 3 update where Chris has asked the MF Global Trustee to grant an extension to 30 Sep so he can provide provide the information from the judgement.
So maybe another 7 weeks of waiting ? I sure hope we all get our funds back by Xmas at the very least.
I wonder what the costs are for 1 year's administration.
Yes I found that extension date a bit worrying as the original date was 3 weeks after the hearing. Now the date is in 2 months time. So originally it was deemed that 3 weeks (possibly less, pending the decision) was enough time so I can only guess from the extension that a decision is not coming in the near future. Wouldnt have thought it would be that hard. I really cant see how the FX clients didnt receive their money back as they had over 100% according to delloittes, whos disuputing that?
Hi Edman,
I did not realise Justice Black had given a timeframe by which he would provide directions on this case.
If the timeframe was 3 weeks since the hearing then it should be any day now which is even better ?
As for the futures funds all I know is there is 34M of Aust client funds tied up at the the ASX which the special Admin in UK (MFGUK) is trying to claim for its clients (I don't get it!!!).
MFGA to provide a statement by the 31 Aug to the Fed court & MFGUK to respond by the 28 Sept. Its a pity the Admins couldn't reach a decision without going to Court.
I know some treasury papers are being discussed right now to prevent CFD providers using client funds for hedging/margin etc. A bit late for us but nevertheless progress in the right direction to prevent the same thing happening again. What I would like to see happen is a Investor Protection fund which Canada have had in place for brokers going under. Canadian MF Clients received 100% of there money back within a few months thanks to the fund.
Pls continue to update this thread as this may be one of the last remaining sources for MFGA info.
I did not realise Justice Black had given a timeframe by which he would provide directions on this case.
If the timeframe was 3 weeks since the hearing then it should be any day now which is even better ?
As for the futures funds all I know is there is 34M of Aust client funds tied up at the the ASX which the special Admin in UK (MFGUK) is trying to claim for its clients (I don't get it!!!).
MFGA to provide a statement by the 31 Aug to the Fed court & MFGUK to respond by the 28 Sept. Its a pity the Admins couldn't reach a decision without going to Court.
I know some treasury papers are being discussed right now to prevent CFD providers using client funds for hedging/margin etc. A bit late for us but nevertheless progress in the right direction to prevent the same thing happening again. What I would like to see happen is a Investor Protection fund which Canada have had in place for brokers going under. Canadian MF Clients received 100% of there money back within a few months thanks to the fund.
Pls continue to update this thread as this may be one of the last remaining sources for MFGA info.
IlliquidX is a financial services boutique specialised in providing access to holders of illiquid and distressed assets to the secondary market in a transparent, efficient and regulated way.
We have executed transactions in excess of $3 billion in claims globally and consistently provide liquidity in today’s volatile market to numerous claim holders. IlliquidX ensures seamless and timely settlement.
Please contact Celestino Amore on +44 2 078 320 181 or at amore@illiquidx.com if you are interested in selling your MF Global Australia claim.
We have executed transactions in excess of $3 billion in claims globally and consistently provide liquidity in today’s volatile market to numerous claim holders. IlliquidX ensures seamless and timely settlement.
Please contact Celestino Amore on +44 2 078 320 181 or at amore@illiquidx.com if you are interested in selling your MF Global Australia claim.
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/08/15/no-criminal-case-is-likely-in-loss-at-mf-global/
amazing if he can escape then go off & create a hedge fund!
amazing if he can escape then go off & create a hedge fund!
thanks to J
The NSW Supreme Court’s decision on Wednesday on the distribution of up to $310 million owed to clients of collapsed broker MF Global Australia is unlikely to be the end of the matter, with parties already preparing to appeal if the ruling is unfavourable.
Sources involved in the litigation process said the return of funds to some clients could drag on well into next year, because there would inevitably be “big winners and losers”.
MF Global Singapore is owed about $16 million from its Australian affiliate, while there are other companies and traders who are owed large sums and have the financial clout to appeal.
About 11,000 clients have not been able to get their funds since November 1 last year, when the local arm of MF Global went into liquidation after the bankruptcy of its US parent.
The local broker’s liquidator, Deloitte, has recovered about $240 million of client funds but has declined to provide an interim distribution without court approval.
There are about 10 parties involved in the court case, including representatives of contracts for difference (CFD) clients (owed $80 million), futures traders ($212 million), margin foreign exchange clients ($16 million), non-client creditors, cash-only clients, and Deutsche Bank and GrainCorp.
It is understood the judge will ask the parties to agree to his initial orders, before giving them more time.
Liquidator Chris Campbell of Deloitte said the legal process was designed to limit the likelihood of appeals further delaying the return of client funds.
“It’s going to be very difficult for anybody to mount a challenge,” Mr Campbell said.
“On most of the book I’d be disappointed if we did get an appeal of any significance,” he said.
Mr Campbell said there was a prospect of CFD clients appealing.
A CFD party, MFG Singapore, has claimed it can trace its share of funds to separate bank accounts which no other client had funds in and that the money is being held in trust for it.
Another possible appeal could centre on whether the $46 million recovered from MFG Australia’s prime broker, Deutsche, is client money or funds that belong to MFG’s corporate entity to which unsecured creditors and staff would have claims.
“I don’t know whether it was client money or corporate money,” Mr Campbell said.
“If it’s corporate money then it becomes MF Global Australia’s and the CFD clients miss out on direct access to those funds and have to rank with all the other creditors.”
“It could have a huge impact for CFDs,” Mr Campbell said.
MF Global client Nick Westbrook who has more than $100,000 frozen, said the Australian Securities and Investments Commission and federal government needed to step in and expedite the return of funds.
“The only group who stand to gain from this dragging on is the lawyers and administrators and all the while the reputation of Australiaas a place to invest is being tarnished,” he said.
The NSW Supreme Court’s decision on Wednesday on the distribution of up to $310 million owed to clients of collapsed broker MF Global Australia is unlikely to be the end of the matter, with parties already preparing to appeal if the ruling is unfavourable.
Sources involved in the litigation process said the return of funds to some clients could drag on well into next year, because there would inevitably be “big winners and losers”.
MF Global Singapore is owed about $16 million from its Australian affiliate, while there are other companies and traders who are owed large sums and have the financial clout to appeal.
About 11,000 clients have not been able to get their funds since November 1 last year, when the local arm of MF Global went into liquidation after the bankruptcy of its US parent.
The local broker’s liquidator, Deloitte, has recovered about $240 million of client funds but has declined to provide an interim distribution without court approval.
There are about 10 parties involved in the court case, including representatives of contracts for difference (CFD) clients (owed $80 million), futures traders ($212 million), margin foreign exchange clients ($16 million), non-client creditors, cash-only clients, and Deutsche Bank and GrainCorp.
It is understood the judge will ask the parties to agree to his initial orders, before giving them more time.
Liquidator Chris Campbell of Deloitte said the legal process was designed to limit the likelihood of appeals further delaying the return of client funds.
“It’s going to be very difficult for anybody to mount a challenge,” Mr Campbell said.
“On most of the book I’d be disappointed if we did get an appeal of any significance,” he said.
Mr Campbell said there was a prospect of CFD clients appealing.
A CFD party, MFG Singapore, has claimed it can trace its share of funds to separate bank accounts which no other client had funds in and that the money is being held in trust for it.
Another possible appeal could centre on whether the $46 million recovered from MFG Australia’s prime broker, Deutsche, is client money or funds that belong to MFG’s corporate entity to which unsecured creditors and staff would have claims.
“I don’t know whether it was client money or corporate money,” Mr Campbell said.
“If it’s corporate money then it becomes MF Global Australia’s and the CFD clients miss out on direct access to those funds and have to rank with all the other creditors.”
“It could have a huge impact for CFDs,” Mr Campbell said.
MF Global client Nick Westbrook who has more than $100,000 frozen, said the Australian Securities and Investments Commission and federal government needed to step in and expedite the return of funds.
“The only group who stand to gain from this dragging on is the lawyers and administrators and all the while the reputation of Australiaas a place to invest is being tarnished,” he said.
Cant believe unsecured creditors trying to access our funds in Segregated accounts. Its good that the concept of the segregated account has been protected.
As a cash only CFD client I think in the end it is fair that all clients are treated equally.
The fact that we also get interest on our funds is a move in the right direction.
Just have to wait till the 12th of Sept to find out the timeframe for the distribution.
As a cash only CFD client I think in the end it is fair that all clients are treated equally.
The fact that we also get interest on our funds is a move in the right direction.
Just have to wait till the 12th of Sept to find out the timeframe for the distribution.
More good news for clients in the CFD pool.
I am told Justice Black's recent directions should clear up some of the issues in getting the remaining funds held by DBA adding to the approx 92% in cash. This would only leave the funds from MF UK outstanding in the CFD pool. This would be returned to us in a subsequent distribution.
I am told Justice Black's recent directions should clear up some of the issues in getting the remaining funds held by DBA adding to the approx 92% in cash. This would only leave the funds from MF UK outstanding in the CFD pool. This would be returned to us in a subsequent distribution.
Do you mind if I post it on MF Global Australia Clients Support Group @ https://www.facebook.com/groups/mfgacsg/ (but (it would be great) if you could do it by yourself ) ?
regs
