MF Global Australia - What are you doing?

[sammy84]

Aren't we meant to be getting some money soon?

 

[hatton01]

Are any MF-Global clients planning to sell your accounts ?
My thoughts are why do this now when the 4 day hearing is only a month away & in the case of the CFD pool 90%+ of the funds are back ? Surely the guys at Mac bank are going to make money on your accounts (at 80 cents they have already made a 10% profit) & thats why they are planning to buy it.
Also when this is done there will be a chance to join in a class action.

 

[skc]

Are any MF-Global clients planning to sell your accounts ?
My thoughts are why do this now when the 4 day hearing is only a month away & in the case of the CFD pool 90%+ of the funds are back ? Surely the guys at Mac bank are going to make money on your accounts (at 80 cents they have already made a 10% profit) & thats why they are planning to buy it.
Also when this is done there will be a chance to join in a class action.

The risk of the buyers are mostly time-based.
1). There is no guarantee that the court hearing will reach a conclusion in those 4 days.
2). Are further appeals / disputes possible?
3). How soon will be funds be paid out?
4). How much will be paid out?
5). Will the money that are currently outstand ever be paid back to MFGA?
6). Will the full 100% ever be paid out?

From the point of view of the buyers, they are obviously expecting a reasonable outcome at the court hearing, but there are no guarantees.

Say the buyer pays 80c in the dollar and also the $2.5k delotte gouging fee, assuming a $100k account, their outlay is $82.5k against a potential reward of $17.5k. So it's a potential return of 21.2%. If the court hearing results in a meaningful proportion of funds being released soonish (say 60% by August), their risk reward is further enhanced. They can potentially be rewarded with $17.5k while outlaying only $22.5k (as $60k is paid out relatively quickly). With that kind of return, they can manage to wait another 2 years and still make a good annualised return of their invested capital.

The question is, if you get that $80k back this week, can you trade $80k back to $100 before the debt buyers do? Alternately, ask yourself if you would take the other side of the trade... that is, would you be buying the debt if you had the capital?

Personally I am a willing seller at >80c. It brings closure and certainty, I can write off the loss this financial year, and I back myself to be able to make my profits back before the buyers would. Letting the buyers make a profit is not that big a deal to me.

 

[sammy84]

Personally I am a willing seller at >80c. It brings closure and certainty, I can write off the loss this financial year, and I back myself to be able to make my profits back before the buyers would. Letting the buyers make a profit is not that big a deal to me.

I take it you haven't sold yet though? I too would be willing to sell but haven't had any approaches yet. Have only heard rumours.

 

[skc]

I take it you haven't sold yet though? I too would be willing to sell but haven't had any approaches yet. Have only heard rumours.

It's moved on a lot from just rumours.

No one is going to approach you, you will need to approach them.

PM me your email and I will send you some info.

Go join up the MFG client support group and you will be on their mailing list. You will need to fill in all the details because there have been cases of fake clients joining.

http://www.mfgaclients.com.au/

 

[hatton01]

If any MF Clients are worried that the court proceeding are going to drag on read the "Amended Originating Process" document available on the Delloites website.
Chris is really asking for direction on certain questions like the question of pooling client segregated funds. I think this is more like a procedure the Administrator has to go through before distributing our funds back to us.
If you are planning to sell up at least wait till you see the outcome of the court hearing.

 

[skc]

If any MF Clients are worried that the court proceeding are going to drag on read the "Amended Originating Process" document available on the Delloites website.
Chris is really asking for direction on certain questions like the question of pooling client segregated funds. I think this is more like a procedure the Administrator has to go through before distributing our funds back to us.
If you are planning to sell up at least wait till you see the outcome of the court hearing.

I am not familiar with the court process. I know the Administrators are asking for directions, but the two questions I have no idea about are:

1. Will the court definitely make a direction within those 4-days of hearing?
2. Can the court's decision be subjected to further appeal?

The price the buyers are willing to pay will definitely change after the court hearing. It will go up if monies are coming out soon, and it will go down if the process drags on further. So waiting is to take a view on the court's likely outcome.

Would someone familiar with the court proceeding be able to comment?

 

[skc]

I take it you haven't sold yet though? I too would be willing to sell but haven't had any approaches yet. Have only heard rumours.

Sammy, I seem to have lost your email in my inbox for some reason.

PM me again if you want more info.

BTW your mailboxes are full.

 

[hatton01]

1. Will the court definitely make a direction within those 4-days of hearing?

If you look at similar hearings (like in HK which have similar Corp law) the courts did not drag the process. Chris's legal team already has the answers they want the courts to sign off on it.

2. Can the court's decision be subjected to further appeal? I dont think so.

 

[banco]

1. Will the court definitely make a direction within those 4-days of hearing?

If you look at similar hearings (like in HK which have similar Corp law) the courts did not drag the process. Chris's legal team already has the answers they want the courts to sign off on it.

2. Can the court's decision be subjected to further appeal? I dont think so.

2.Of course it can. If someone had standing they could file an appeal.

 

[ruliann]

Hi

I m french customer of broker WHSelfinvest, and like you, I am a victim of MF Global.

WHSelfinvest worked with MF Global UK....

Now, WHSelfinvest choose Macquarie UK for our deposits (future accounts).

the liquidator of MF Global (UK) is KPMG, and like you, MFG UK customers have not received any transfer. 0 !

KPMG promises us a first payment of 26.9% for weeks...! We are still waiting ...

I stand in solidarity on your forum and for propose to you 2 another forums, if you're interested :

- http://mfgukclients.org/?page_id=268
- http://www.pro-at.com/forums-bourse/bourse-257-34161.html

You have problems with Deloitte, and KPMG for us!

results to date:

-Canadian > 100% :bananasmi
-Singapore > 90%
-US > 78-80% :alcohol:
-Australia and UK > 0




*sorry for my english guys

 

[hatton01]

2. If someone had standing they could file an appeal.

1.My thoughts are it is not in any mf clients interests to drag the court process! It is counter productive.
2.You have to have dip pockets to get legal representation to appeal the court process.
3. All of the issues are fairly clear cut. There are specific corp laws to guide the Judge.
4. The folks trying to get us to sell our accounts are quoting the cases of Sonray & Lehman Bros. These are bad examples as no money was lost due to fraud in this case. With the CFT side close 90% to 95% of the funds our back.
Funny how no mention was made about Singapore or HK where money was returned after the court process. These two countries have similar Corp laws.

The fact the Mac Bank want to buy our accounts tells me there is an extremely good probability the money will be returned very soon. I say dont sell.

 

[banco]

Depends what you define as "very soon". There's a very good chance the Court will reserve it's decision (basically take time to think it over) and the result won't be known for months.

 

[skc]

2. If someone had standing they could file an appeal.

1.My thoughts are it is not in any mf clients interests to drag the court process! It is counter productive.
2.You have to have dip pockets to get legal representation to appeal the court process.
3. All of the issues are fairly clear cut. There are specific corp laws to guide the Judge.
4. The folks trying to get us to sell our accounts are quoting the cases of Sonray & Lehman Bros. These are bad examples as no money was lost due to fraud in this case. With the CFT side close 90% to 95% of the funds our back.
Funny how no mention was made about Singapore or HK where money was returned after the court process. These two countries have similar Corp laws.

The fact the Mac Bank want to buy our accounts tells me there is an extremely good probability the money will be returned very soon. I say dont sell.

Yes it is in the interest of clients not to drag on with the court process, but I don't trust all 10000 account holders to be fully rational beings. Many small timers with $10k in the account will not take a haircut, because they have no trading skill to earn them back. Deloitte probably doing them a favour by not releasing the funds.

The sonray case was appealed because of the way glv is calculated, although the fruad and subsequent settlement proposal no doubt made the process longer. MFGA has got no fraud, but it has a different dimension by being linked to many overseas parties which complicated the return of funds.

As i said before the buyers are there to make a profit and they are certainly taking a view on the court outcome being favourable. I am however happy to sell base on my own risk/reward appetite. Chances are clients will see some money before Sept, but i am guessing clients won't see the final dollar much later than that. Hopefully for those not selling, that 'some money' turns out to be a substantial portion.

 

[pifouSyd]

When I see heavyweight like GWF and GrainCorp engaged in the court action, it does not make me comfortable that there will be a speedy resolution. I imagine that there is significant money involved to justify delaying the distribution by lodging their claims to the Court.
This being said, I find it very hard to guess how long or how short it will be.

 

[hatton01]

Having traded for over 10 years the current market conditions are not favourable to the trend trader. I think there are very few traders out there who can actually make a living out of trading in the current climate.

What Mac Bank & the likes are trying to do is make a quick buck out of us.

When you look at the CFD Seg Account there is 90% to 95% (add on interest payments) of the funds returned why would you give 15 cents to Mac bank for a wait of a few months. The fact that they are willing to pay 10 cents more for CFD accounts also tells me the pools will be treated differently which is a very good thing.

If I was only concerned for my account I would be telling folks to sell. By selling now you are taking a unecessary hair cut where cash is king right now.

It is in the interest of some folks to give us the Gloom & Doom rubbish so they can make commissions out of our loss.

 

[skc]

Having traded for over 10 years the current market conditions are not favourable to the trend trader. I think there are very few traders out there who can actually make a living out of trading in the current climate.

What Mac Bank & the likes are trying to do is make a quick buck out of us.

When you look at the CFD Seg Account there is 90% to 95% (add on interest payments) of the funds returned why would you give 15 cents to Mac bank for a wait of a few months. The fact that they are willing to pay 10 cents more for CFD accounts also tells me the pools will be treated differently which is a very good thing.

If I was only concerned for my account I would be telling folks to sell. By selling now you are taking a unecessary hair cut where cash is king right now.

It is in the interest of some folks to give us the Gloom & Doom rubbish so they can make commissions out of our loss.

Can I ask where you get the information on Mac Bank's offer for CFD accounts?

Re: selling... each to their own I guess. The sell/hold decision to me is like another trade, and I am risk-adversed so I tend to sell when I don't have particular insight to support a hold decision. If me selling helps you get your fund returned faster, then we'd both be happy.

 

[hatton01]

Hi SKC,
Sorry I got the Mac Bank stuff incorrect. They are only willing to buy (ie: > 100K ) & it is negotiable (I will find out what the going rate is ?).
Mac bank (Sean.kelly@macqurie.com)

However CRT offering 80 cents on CFD accounts. (CRT - ross@andersonsonline.com.au)

Info for the above is via the mf global client support group.

As there is a lot misinfomation about what the court procedure entails, I thought I would speak to my friendly mf global person. Here are the main points:

1/ Court process is only for 4 days. This is where anyone who has a strong case for how the distribution should take place needs to put forward there case based on the Corp act 2001.

2/ Once the 4 days is up the Judge will consider all of the material submitted & provide the necessary legal framework ('directions') to the Administrator/MFGA to make distributions to the clients. It could be a month or two for the Judge to come back with the 'directions'.

3/ Once the Judge provides directions there is a 30 day period for any party to appeal.

4/ The appeal may or may not stop distributions to a pool / client.
The appeal will have to be heard again & a Judge will have to provide new directions.

5/ There is a strong probability any interest earned will be paid back into the different pools which will make up some of the short falls. No one else can claim these funds.

6/ CFD pool - 90% has been returned. UK affiliate & DB have to return funds to make it close to 100%.
(I once received the cfd platinum client list by accident. Have to tell you there were not too many names on the list. So I am hoping there wont be too many appeals coming from this pool. Looks like all of the buyers are thinking on the same lines as the difference between CFD & Futures accounts are 10 cents).

7/ There are no previous precedents to this type of administration where there was no fraud. So Sonray adminstration is NOT a good example.

I still think HK & Singapore MF Global admin is the closest precedent (very similar Corp law) & money was distributed after the court process fairly swiftly.

So if we say the Judge is going to take 2 months + 30 day period to hear appeals we might see a distribution in Oct. At the worst case in time for Xmas.

Hope the above helps in anyway to remain positive that we are getting closer to this nightmare ending & we can get back to trading with the minimum haircut (5% would be nice).
Cheers

 

[skc]

Hi SKC,
Sorry I got the Mac Bank stuff incorrect. They are only willing to buy (ie: > 100K ) & it is negotiable (I will find out what the going rate is ?).
Mac bank (Sean.kelly@macqurie.com)

However CRT offering 80 cents on CFD accounts. (CRT - ross@andersonsonline.com.au)

Info for the above is via the mf global client support group.

Thanks Hatton. I am across the offers out there as per the Client Support Group updates.

The information you posted are close enough to my understanding as well. There are quite a few variables so people can make their own judgement on those.

 

[edman79]

SKC have you decided to sell?
I'd be interested in anyones experience with the banks buying their debt. Has anyone contacted the banks, what price are you selling for and when/how long will it take?