Malaysia Airlines taken down again!

[Joe Blow]

All I asked was for you to explain how a guy could accidently pull a trigger on a BUK guided missile system and accidently hit a plane flying above 30000 feet.

You asked nothing. You labelled everyone who disagreed with you as "an apologist". You're not interested in a reasonable discussion, you are interested in trolling, as usual.

Actually you didn't ask. You made a statement and the followed it up by calling me an apologist.

Yes, that's exactly what he did.

Okay. We'll call it quits. You call it an "accident" and I'll call it an "atrocity". Time will tell.

No, we won't call it quits. You have been warned again and again about your relentless name calling, deliberate provocation, personal attacks and trolling. In spite of all the warnings you still persist in disrupting every single thread you participate in.

This two week holiday is to give you some time to reflect on your posting style. If you are not capable of conducting yourself like a reasonable person when debating others then you are not welcome back. Your decision, but if you come back and start trolling again, the consequences will be dire indeed.

 

[So_Cynical]

I'm outraged, but have to half agree with the Troll that nothing will come of it, The Russians have a security council veto and are to big, Europe relies on Russian Gas for industry, power and heating and they know that the Russians are super sensitive about Ukraine and the other eastern buffer country's, in fact all the old core republics that have independence but still act as allies and are geopolitical buffers.

Russia is pretty much an organized well financed rouge state..Syria, Ukraine and Georgia, its all hands off.

----------

Look at the Israelis, killed 200 Palestinians just this week and its all hands off, they are the US proxy force in the Mid East so no one does nothing about them...a Geopolitical no go.

 

[Value Collector]

I'm outraged, but have to half agree with the Troll that nothing will come of it, The Russians have a security council veto and are to big, Europe relies on Russian Gas for industry, power and heating and they know that the Russians are super sensitive about Ukraine and the other eastern buffer country's, in fact all the old core republics that have independence but still act as allies and are geopolitical buffers.

Russia is pretty much an organized well financed rouge state..Syria, Ukraine and Georgia, its all hands off.

----------

Look at the Israelis, killed 200 Palestinians just this week and its all hands off, they are the US proxy force in the Mid East so no one does nothing about them...a Geopolitical no go.

I am outraged also, but any charges would have to come down to intent, it is a war zone, and if the plane was genuinely mistaken for a military target, it is just an unfortunate accident. The USA have killed more than 298 innocent people in drone attacks where the targets were mis identified. Its a sad fact of war.

To get these guys on war crimes we would have to prove that they knew it was a civilian aircraft.

 

[explod]

What about the intercepted phone calls where a Russian rebel calls a Russian intel person confirming they had shot a plane down?

Was thinking about just that point after posting. That conversation may have been created. Seemed to be too neat. A bit like some of the Ukraine demos that appeared as hollywood sets.

There will be more than meets the eye in all this when the dust settles In My HUMBLE view.

 

[SirRumpole]

I am outraged also, but any charges would have to come down to intent, it is a war zone, and if the plane was genuinely mistaken for a military target, it is just an unfortunate accident. The USA have killed more than 298 innocent people in drone attacks where the targets were mis identified. Its a sad fact of war.

To get these guys on war crimes we would have to prove that they knew it was a civilian aircraft.

It's only a war if the fighting is between nations and there is a justifiable reason for conflict. The participants must also agree to conditions involving treatment of prisoners and conditions of surrender. Acts undertaken by other than such parties are not covered under international laws of war, and so could be considered criminal acts. That's basically why Al Quaeda captives were not considered POWS, and neither can Ukrainian separatists be considered lawful combatants.

That doesn't absolve airlines from avoiding unnecessary risks to their passengers.

 

[McLovin]

It's only a war if the fighting is between nations and there is a justifiable reason for conflict.

That's an odd interpretation of war. So basically, there's no such thing as a civil war? And who decides if a war is justifiable? The separatists obviously believe they have a legitimate cause to be fighting for. I won't pretend to understand the hundreds of years of ethnic division in any part of Europe that seems to see them going to war on a fairly regular basis, but that does seem to be the driving force behind most of their wars.

ETA: Here's the definition of war...

war
wɔː
noun
1.
a state of armed conflict between different countries or different groups within a country.

 

[SirRumpole]

That's an odd interpretation of war. So basically, there's no such thing as a civil war? And who decides if a war is justifiable? The separatists obviously believe they have a legitimate cause to be fighting for. I won't pretend to understand the hundreds of years of ethnic division in any part of Europe that seems to see them going to war on a fairly regular basis, but that does seem to be the driving force behind most of their wars.

ETA: Here's the definition of war...

Who decides if a war is justifiable ? Depends on who wins. The leaders in the Bosnian civil war are now on trial.

 

[McLovin]

Who decides if a war is justifiable ? Depends on who wins. The leaders in the Bosnian civil war are now on trial.

And the war Croatia fought to break away from Serb controlled Yugoslavia is called the Croatian war of independence.

 

[SirRumpole]

And the war Croatia fought to break away from Serb controlled Yugoslavia is called the Croatian war of independence.

You seem to think that any renegade is justified in calling a war for whatever reasons they think appropriate. There are internationally approved rules of engagement that cover conflict. If the Ukrainian seperatists are defeated and captured, should they be treated as POW's or criminals in your opinion ?

 

[McLovin]

You seem to think that any renegade is justified in calling a war for whatever reasons they think appropriate. There are internationally approved rules of engagement that cover conflict.

They haven't declared war, they've declared independence. It's a little bit more complex than a few renegades calling for war. For one thing, that part of the Ukraine has historically been part of Russia and that part of the world has had land borders shifting for centuries and this time is no different. It's a mix of ethnic rivalry, historical payback and outright nationalism. You can't reduce it to goodies v baddies. That apparently makes me an apologist to some, I'd say it makes me a realist.

There's no such thing as "internationally approved rules of engagement". If you end up in a state of war, it doesn't really matter how you got there.

If the Ukrainian seperatists are defeated and captured, should they be treated as POW's or criminals in your opinion ?

POWs are completely different to criminals. A POW has not committed a crime. Similarly, you can't have POW's once a state of war has ceased to exist. If they are defeated, then I have no doubt they'll be charged with treason.

I don't think I'd want to be a prisoner of any type in the Ukraine or Russia.

 

[Value Collector]

They haven't declared war, they've declared independence. It's a little bit more complex than a few renegades calling for war. For one thing, that part of the Ukraine has historically been part of Russia and that part of the world has had land borders shifting for centuries and this time is no different. It's a mix of ethnic rivalry, historical payback and outright nationalism. You can't reduce it to goodies v baddies. That apparently makes me an apologist to some, I'd say it makes me a realist.

There's no such thing as "internationally approved rules of engagement". If you end up in a state of war, it doesn't really matter how you got there.



POWs are completely different to criminals. A POW has not committed a crime. Similarly, you can't have POW's once a state of war has ceased to exist. If they are defeated, then I have no doubt they'll be charged with treason.

I don't think I'd want to be a prisoner of any type in the Ukraine or Russia.

+1, there are big differences between Al-Qaeda and those involved in the Ukraine conflict.

 

[SirRumpole]

+1, there are big differences between Al-Qaeda and those involved in the Ukraine conflict.

Really ? Both are fighting against what they see as oppression. Both don't believe in negotiation, only violence. It boils down to the same thing. I suppose the seperatists have at least confined their battles to one country but in other ways they have similar tactics.

 

[McLovin]

Really ? Both are fighting against what they see as oppression. Both don't believe in negotiation, only violence. It boils down to the same thing. I suppose the seperatists have at least confined their battles to one country but in other ways they have similar tactics.

I don't believe they have claimed they are oppressed, and what do you say to the pro-government supporters who held violent protests in Kiev until the elected president was forced to resign? The whole thing started because the Ukrainian government wanted to move closer to NATO and the EU. Eastern Ukraine wants to remain close to Russia. The map of the last election results tells paints the story pretty well. The red is the pro-West candidate, the blue the pro-Russian. The pro-Russian candidate won but was overthrown, which is where this all started.

 

[explod]

You have it there McLovin. Current Ukraine government is not democratically legitimate.

But with good ole us of a just back the side that is best for the petrodollar.

Russia are taking the trade cards away, and I again emphasise that that is going to mean big trouble.

Now back to topic, the culprites could be slippery and have very smokey screens. IMHO

 

[So_Cynical]

~
And this is pretty much how this will end up, the Russians need a buffer and the Genuine Ukrainians need a state...they should just fast forward to the end game in an orderly manner...but we all know that is not how politics when mixed with reality work/s.

 

[Value Collector]

Really ? Both are fighting against what they see as oppression. Both don't believe in negotiation, only violence. It boils down to the same thing. I suppose the seperatists have at least confined their battles to one country but in other ways they have similar tactics.

Al-quaeda are a terrorist organisation, which is a lot different to separatist rebels fighting for independence. Al-quaeda targeted civilians on purpose, by the looks of it, the rebels were targeting military targets, and this disaster was an accident.

Its not much different than the USA drone striking a bus of civilians in Iraq or an Aussie soldier throwing a grenade into the wrong house into a room of afgan women and children. War is terrible, sickening accidents happen.

 

[bellenuit]

Hot off the press. Graphic photo of The Greens and Socialist Left burning Russian flags during violent protests near the Russian Embassy in Canberra. Be warned, you may find the image disturbing and confronting. Lee Rhiannon can be clearly seen confronting the police barricade demonstrating her willingness to put her support of the victims ahead of her own safety.

 

[SirRumpole]

Hot off the press. Graphic photo of The Greens and Socialist Left burning Russian flags during violent protests near the Russian Embassy in Canberra. Be warned, you may find the image disturbing and confronting. Lee Rhiannon can be clearly seen confronting the police barricade demonstrating her willingness to put her support of the victims ahead of her own safety.

How very cheap to bring politics into such a tragedy.

 

[prawn_86]

How very cheap to bring politics into such a tragedy.

I agree.

Any further off topic political posts will be removed. This is not a thread to discuss Australian politics

 

[bellenuit]

I agree.

Any further off topic political posts will be removed. This is not a thread to discuss Australian politics

There are two aspects to the tragedy; the political aspect and the human aspect.

The thread so far has been predominantly political and I don't recall any post on the thread expressing condolences to the victims and their families, though I may have missed one or two. The topics discussed have centred around who was responsible and comparisons have been made with other conflicts around the world. Although the event that occurred was indeed a tragedy, it is apparent from pretty much all of the facts gleaned to date that even though it may have been an unintended act of the Russian separatists, it was only unintended in that they mistook their target. The ultimate reason they were in a position to do such an act was because of deliberate actions of the Russian government in supporting and supplying the separatists.

How very cheap to bring politics into such a tragedy

What rank hypocrisy. Every comment you, Sir Rumpole, have made on this thread has been politically related.

My post was not in any way intended to make light of the tragedy, but to demonstrate the hypocrisy of the left in this country who have been pretty much mute in their condemnation of Russia.