Labor's carbon tax lie

[Smurf1976]

http://www.theage.com.au/environmen...ep-trading-with-565m-debt-20111219-1p2ju.html

Details of the financial difficulty come less than a week after a federal government report predicted that, should the Loy Yang A plant be forced to close suddenly, wholesale electricity prices would nearly double, with an immediate flow on to household power costs.

possibility of the government becoming its lender of last resort

It's not just the finances you need to worry about, the lights in Victoria and South Australia will go out if this plant closes. That's will, not might, if or maybe.

At the risk of a bit of personal chest beating and "I told you so", I've always thought that privatisation of the utilities would end up with a failure of the system and a government bailout. We've already seen it with things other than power, and it looks like we're getting close to that situation in the electricity industry.

If you want an effective power system that is technically efficient then put the whole lot back into a single utility for each state. We used to have the third cheapest electricity in the developed world (behind Canada and NZ, both of which are heavily reliant on cheap hydro-electricity) prior to the National Electricity Market and associated privatisations. There just wasn't a problem that needed fixing.

 

[sptrawler]

Well smurph, how long before they announce the first nuclear power station?
Or better still leave the system in such a mess, that whoever takes over from them has no alternative.
Then Bob and Julia will be saying it wasn't us.
I hope I am wrong, but I feel this government will go down in history, for all the wrong reasons.

Actually maybe we can rename him"Fukishima Bob" the person who brought about nuclear power in Australia, for better or worse.LOL

 

[Smurf1976]

Well smurph, how long before they announce the first nuclear power station?

Nuclear power is the one energy source that I really don't want to see used in Australia. It's uneconomic in this (and most other) country and just not necessary. But I strongly suspect that this is the path we are being lead down - make the present system unworkable then force their preferred "solution" down our throats once there's no real choice.

Australia has massive amounts of coal and a lot of gas too. We've also got locally significant oil, hydro, biomass and wind resources as well as plenty of sunlight and (possibly) dry geothermal. And yet we're in a complete mess with energy policy, to the point that we're heading toward a situation where the lights really do go out (or nobody can afford to switch them on in the first place).

Every Australian state has significant local energy resources sufficient to meet its electricity needs and in many cases gas as well. We just shouldn't be in this mess.

Qld - lots of coal and gas. Some hydro and a little bit of oil.

NSW - lots of coal. Also some hydro and some gas.

Vic - lots of coal and gas. Significant oil and some hydro.

Tas - lots of hydro, wood and wind. Enough coal for local use and a bit of gas too.

SA - numerous coal deposits, plenty of wind and quite a bit of gas too. Also a bit of oil.

WA - lots of gas and more than enough coal and oil too.

NT - lots of gas.

We just shouldn't have a problem with energy in this country. BUT:

1. The solar industry in crisis in much of the country. No matter what your view on solar versus coal etc, the whole "on again, off again, on again, off again" nonsense is financially destroying many honest small businesses (and some not so small ones) whilst government directly tries to shaft consumers as well.

2. The largest (coal-fired) power station in Victoria is on the edge of bankruptcy with massive debts. (This is also the least CO2 emitting coal plant in Vic by the way).

3. Government trying to get a different coal plant in Vic, plus another one in SA, to permanently close.

4. Underlying electricity demand continues to rise, somewhat masked whilst the cooler than usual summer weather persists (but it will be hot sometime...).

5. Oil is nearly $100 per barrel despite much of the world's economy falling in a hole.

6. The Australian oil refining industry continues to decline, with media reports that Caltex is considering ending local production as there's more money selling crisps and chocolate bars than in producing and selling petrol. That leaves Australia with 4 working oil refineries, down from 7 at present and 10 a few years ago.

The only rational conclusion I can come up with is that we're heading for an outright crisis with energy at some point. Electricity and petrol, which would account for the majority of energy use and expenditure for the average person and are absolutely essential to everyday life, are being credibly threatened both in terms of physical supply and price. Just wait until there's a drought (hydro electricity) or some sort of international turmoil (petrol imports) and it's not going to look pretty.

If there's one thing that this country desperately needs it's a sensible energy policy. With so much energy available right here in Australia, it's truly ridiculous to be faced with such a situation.

 

[sptrawler]

As per usual smurph a terrific analisis of a dire situation, shame you can't get a seat on the green bench in Tassie. They could do with someone with a bit of common sense.

Have a read of Bobs response to boat people dying, while trying to get to Australia.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...onshore-solution/story-fn9hm1gu-1226227154348

You should be quids in, with your common sense. Really this goose is helping formulate policy for Australia and labor are pandering to him.LOL
I suppose that's why they are called a minority government, the majority don't want them.

 

[sptrawler]

Well smurph, the I.M.O in W.A is going to cut back what it pays for wind farm generation because it can't meet its availability requirements.
So it is going to be harder for wind farms to get funding, coal is looking better and better, shame we are selling off all the coal mines. LOL
The biggest stuff up in living memory is about to unfold. IMO

 

[Smurf1976]

The biggest stuff up in living memory is about to unfold. IMO

Canada is a partial exception as is Norway and New Zealand and of course locally Tasmania. But the rest of the developed world is pretty much stuck with fossil fuels and nuclear (uranium) power for the foreseeable future. No amount of wishful thinking will change that, and even in those 4 exceptions they are still stuck with fossil fuels for transport and to run furnaces etc.

 

[sptrawler]

What furnaces smurph, they are all getting ready for the carbon tax. It won't be long before all iron, steel and aluminium processing in Australia is shut down.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/jobs-cut-as-strong-dollar-burns-nsw-smelters-20120111-1puki.html

 

[Smurf1976]

What furnaces smurph, they are all getting ready for the carbon tax. It won't be long before all iron, steel and aluminium processing in Australia is shut down.

Sadly I think you're right.

10 years from now Australia will quite likely be incapable of even basic defence of itself without reliance on potential enemies. We won't even be able to manufacture ammunition, trucks, cars, railway lines or anything else that is actually necessary to keep the country running and/or defend it.

We are headed toward total reliance on others even for food supply. No prizes for guessing what they are likely to force on us in terms of prices for mineral exports once we are absolutely dependent on them. It's not going to be a price rise that's for sure.

30 years from now, the odds are there will be an Australian government whose primary objective is to establish basic industry in Australia. Iron and steel, aluminium, pulp and paper, heavy engineering works etc.

I don't know the specifics for the other states, but certainly here in Tas it's easier to count the things which haven't closed than the ones which have. If you look at the manufacturing industries we once had then practically the whole lot is gone already, and most of what remains is clearly heading the same way.

Port Huon pulp mill. Electrona smelter. Blundstone footware. ACI Glass. Sheridan Textiles. The sulphate of ammonia plant that used to be at the zinc works site. Coats Paton mills. Southern Aluminium. APPM Wesley Vale. APPM Burnie. North-West Acid. Tioxide...

That's just in Tasmania, a state where the economy has been pretty much wrecked by a combination of gutless state governments of both persuasions plus the greens and their interstate supporters.

And people wonder why Tas is practically broke and the closest thing Australia has to Greece. If you look at what's going on with hospitals and other public services down here then it's worse than most probably realise. It's not cuts, it's closer to shut the doors and throw away the keys - many people on those waiting lists will simply never be treated.

Give it a few years and the whole country will end up in this situation...

 

[Logique]

..Tasmania, a state where the economy has been pretty much wrecked by a combination of gutless state governments of both persuasions plus the greens and their interstate supporters.
And people wonder why Tas is practically broke and the closest thing Australia has to Greece. If you look at what's going on with hospitals and other public services down here then it's worse than most probably realise. It's not cuts, it's closer to shut the doors and throw away the keys - many people on those waiting lists will simply never be treated.
Give it a few years and the whole country will end up in this situation..

True. Tassie now has the likes of Dick Smith (who led a syndicate of business people that bailed out Bob Brown on his legal fees) snatching up tracts of the state and developing them for an exclusive clientele of mostly out of state guests. Or that presumptuous businessman who from Sydney ran a campaign against the Tamar pulp mill.

Blue collar workers and small businesses becoming second class citizens. An entire state turned into a theme park, propped up by Govt subsidies. The kind of electorate that alway votes Labor.

People from other states have to understand this is coming to them next. In particular watch out WA and QLD.

 

[orr]

If the media were doing their job they'd be picking up on this.

UN IPCC Official Admits 'We Redistribute World's Wealth By Climate Policy

So please tell me to what extent?
And give me a comparison to this;

this is from Karen Kissane's piece in the SMH today

The West launched globalisation as a way to open markets and increase competitiveness - and it did both. But what was perhaps not so well foreseen was the degree to which capital and manufacturing jobs would move to countries with cheap labour. As billions of low-paid workers have been absorbed into the world economy, and productivity has risen due to technology, jobs have stagnated in Europe. Asia makes, and is booming; Europe borrowed, in order to consume, and is now going bust.
The American political scientist Francis Fukuyama questions whether democracy can survive the resulting decline of the middle class. Writing in this month's Foreign Affairs magazine, he argues the lightly regulated form of globalised capitalism has created new wealth and rising middle classes, with democracy in their wake, all over the developing world. But in the West, he says, it is eroding the middle-class social base on which liberal democracies rest.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/ddays-for-the-europe-experiment-20120113-1pzca.html#ixzz1jOF2snro

In Orwell's 1984 there's an interaction between Winston and an old prol man who was around before Big Brother, and the old man's complaints were of shoe lasses that were hard now to get or poor quality of cheese, (don't quote me on the consumerables), but the point is that they are of little things, Winston's lament is that the old man is like an ant, in that he can see the little things but he cannot see the big one's.
And the cost of the baby step toward an climate insurance policy, sanctioned by people like Bill Gates and arch socialists like David Cameron is a 100% redistributed tax that aims to forward technology and give business certainty.

 

[Smurf1976]

And the cost of the baby step toward an climate insurance policy, sanctioned by people like Bill Gates and arch socialists like David Cameron is a 100% redistributed tax that aims to forward technology and give business certainty.

Such is the problem. We've already redistributed to the point that we have a growing underclass here in Australia and it's even worse in the USA. Meanwhile China etc are outright booming as industry after industry leaves our shores.

We've had more than enough "redistribution" already and it's time to put a stop to it.

 

[mexican]

http://www.smh.com.au/business/euro...ose-gap-to-australias-tax-20120118-1q6ms.html

 

[Logique]

UN IPCC Official Admits 'We Redistribute World's Wealth By Climate Policy
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/ddays-for-the-europe-experiment-20120113-1pzca.html#ixzz1jOF2snro
..a 100% redistributed tax that aims to forward technology and give business certainty.

Redistributed to whom? I don't remember the Australian people being asked their opinion on this subject. Certainly not in respect of the huge chunk going to the UN to make Kevin Rudd a hero.

Also I think you'll find it will be closer to 50% redistributed here in Australia. The rest to the unofficial re-elect Julia Gillard fund, otherwise known as the promised budget surplus in 2012-13 (..I mean, as if ! And the Pope's a Protestant I suppose).

I recall globalization being a dirty word amongst the Occupy fraternity. Not any more it seems. Now it's the way to satisfy their idealogical cravings.

 

[orr]

Redistributed to whom? I don't remember the Australian people being asked their opinion on this subject. Certainly not in respect of the huge chunk going to the UN to make Kevin Rudd a hero.

Also I think you'll find it will be closer to 50% redistributed here in Australia. The rest to the unofficial re-elect Julia Gillard fund, otherwise known as the promised budget surplus in 2012-13 (..I mean, as if ! And the Pope's a Protestant I suppose).

I recall globalization being a dirty word amongst the Occupy fraternity. Not any more it seems. Now it's the way to satisfy their idealogical cravings.

Nor were we asked about being frog marched into Iraq on trumped up twaddle, They call it "tough titties"

To yor second point;
More or less exactly the comments made to me by an ill-educated school drop out truck driver, I have a bit to do with. the more Hadley he imbibes the more ventilated he becomes.
Or you could take on board the view of say;
Maruis Kloppers
BHP Billiton chief executive Marius Kloppers said the government should consider a range of initiatives, including a carbon tax and individual levies, to lower energy consumption.

Gail Kelly( To correct a Piece in the Australian news paper)
Fran Kelly: Yes to a price on carbon.

Gail Kelly: Correct. It's a necessary step on the way towards an ETS. Now, it's the only situation that needs to get tackled. We need an overall carbon plan within our economy. But an ETS is a very important component of that.

I could go on with bill Gates , but I think I've made My point.

And to your third;
I'm all ears to thoughts on the comparative redistribution of a future carbon market and that unleashed by unrestrained Hayekien inspired globalization.
But Orwell inspires me to look for the big things, or to at least try.

 

[sptrawler]

Nor were we asked about being frog marched into Iraq on trumped up twaddle, They call it "tough titties"

To yor second point;
More or less exactly the comments made to me by an ill-educated school drop out truck driver, I have a bit to do with. the more Hadley he imbibes the more ventilated he becomes.
Or you could take on board the view of say;
Maruis Kloppers
BHP Billiton chief executive Marius Kloppers said the government should consider a range of initiatives, including a carbon tax and individual levies, to lower energy consumption.

Gail Kelly( To correct a Piece in the Australian news paper)
Fran Kelly: Yes to a price on carbon.

Gail Kelly: Correct. It's a necessary step on the way towards an ETS. Now, it's the only situation that needs to get tackled. We need an overall carbon plan within our economy. But an ETS is a very important component of that.

I could go on with bill Gates , but I think I've made My point.

And to your third;
I'm all ears to thoughts on the comparative redistribution of a future carbon market and that unleashed by unrestrained Hayekien inspired globalization.
But Orwell inspires me to look for the big things, or to at least try.

When we were 'frog marched' into Iraq, our taxes were dropping. Why not just elect a government and let them decide what you voted on afterwards. Comrade.
Secondly, is that the Marcus Kloppers who uses hundreds of planes to fly people in and out rather than spend money on local infra structure. Which would reduce B.H.P's carbon footprint.
Nice one quoting Gail Kelly, I don't think a carbon tax will have any effect on a bank as they are not a carbon emitter. Mention a super profit tax and see her arc up.
If Orwell inspires you to look for the 'big things', one would have thought you would agree that a holistical global approach is needed.
Maybe I am wrong, but I am not arrogant enough to believe 1. That Australia can change the worlds climate and 2. That the government set the carbon price with the climate and technology as the main driver.

 

[orr]

When we were 'frog marched' into Iraq, our taxes were dropping. Why not just elect a government and let them decide what you voted on afterwards. Comrade.
Secondly, is that the Marcus Kloppers who uses hundreds of planes to fly people in and out rather than spend money on local infra structure. Which would reduce B.H.P's carbon footprint.
Nice one quoting Gail Kelly, I don't think a carbon tax will have any effect on a bank as they are not a carbon emitter. Mention a super profit tax and see her arc up.
If Orwell inspires you to look for the 'big things', one would have thought you would agree that a holistical global approach is needed.
Maybe I am wrong, but I am not arrogant enough to believe 1. That Australia can change the worlds climate and 2. That the government set the carbon price with the climate and technology as the main driver.

Comrade! Orwell! and you SP in your Brown Shirt and Arm Band, I can sort of imagine some one like you and Ernst Rohm being... uhm... 'close'
. Sounds like were off to Spain to sort this out. Guernica, some saw it as a victory. but you had to on that side.

 

[sptrawler]

Comrade! Orwell! and you SP in your Brown Shirt and Arm Band, I can sort of imagine some one like you and Ernst Rohm being... uhm... 'close'
. Sounds like were off to Spain to sort this out. Guernica, some saw it as a victory. but you had to on that side.

Ah, now I am a fascist because I have an expectation that I should know what I am voting for before I vote. LOL
Wilkie must be a fascist too, he thought he was voting with the expectation the government would honour its commitment.
Obviously like you, Julia must be looking at a bigger picture or is that a mirror she is looking in.
I think she follows your dictum 'tough titties' as long as she gets her outcome. Actually if anyone should be wearing a brown shirt and arm band, it would be yourself.

 

[DB008]

What furnaces smurph, they are all getting ready for the carbon tax. It won't be long before all iron, steel and aluminium processing in Australia is shut down.

From working in the field the past 6 months;

Shell Clyde in Sydney - closing down refinery - importing a finished product from Asia- cheaper to import than refine here - carbon tax was the nail in the coffin.

Caltex Kurnell in Sydney - shutting down a few reactors due to Carbon Tax

Altona Melbourne - winding down

(If Australia 'ever' goes to war, well, we are stuffed. 3 week diesel reserves for the whole country...)

 

[sptrawler]

From working in the field the past 6 months;

Shell Clyde in Sydney - closing down refinery - importing a finished product from Asia- cheaper to import than refine here - carbon tax was the nail in the coffin.

Caltex Kurnell in Sydney - shutting down a few reactors due to Carbon Tax

Altona Melbourne - winding down

(If Australia 'ever' goes to war, well, we are stuffed. 3 week diesel reserves for the whole country...)

Yes good old Labor, save their skins, who gives a rats about workers and their jobs.
By the way when is that 30% pay rise locked in, I hear them asking. LOL

 

[Smurf1976]

(If Australia 'ever' goes to war, well, we are stuffed. 3 week diesel reserves for the whole country...)

And your list was just in the oil refining industry. There's heaps more in other industries.

As for war, the scary thing is that you can be pretty damn sure there will one sooner or later and without the ability to manufacture things here we are pretty much stuffed.

I wonder how many have thought that if ACL Bearings, a fairly humble looking operation in the suburbs of Launceston, closes then that means Australia can't even feed itself without relying on imported machinery? That's just one minor example and there are thousands more like it.