Is there a GOD?

In regard to the option with the most responses, "I know there is no GOD we are a random quirk of nature"... I've been investigating this question for about 20 years now and am pretty firmly coming to the conclusion that we are not a random quirk of nature.

Now that isn't saying there is a god as many 'churches' and 'religions' portray, but I'm strongly coming to the belief that there is something out there or maybe in us, in the not completely understood thalamus or diencephalon area that can attune to the rythm of the universe and help guide us to better decision making for some 'greater' purpose in life.

On the issue of miracles... if you believe a miracle to be an act of god, say to save someone's life, and I mean no disrespect to Mary M, she was apparently a terrific lady... but surely if god saved a person through say Mary, surely god wanted that person to live on for some reason.

So, shouldn't we be looking at that person for whatever god wanted to achieve through saving their life, arguably more than admiration of Mary?... afterall the Commandments say god is a jealous god, so he would be cross with you if you focused your admiration/worship on Mary instead of what he was trying to achieve, wouldn't he?

Whiskers said:

On the issue of miracles... if you believe a miracle to be an act of god, say to save someone's life, and I mean no disrespect to Mary M, she was apparently a terrific lady... but surely if god saved a person through say Mary, surely god wanted that person to live on for some reason.

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The issue I have with miracles such as those attributed to Mary M, is that if God wanted the person to live for some reason, as you say, why did God give the person the affliction to begin with?

I wasn't paying attention when I heard this on ABC radio yesterday, but it appears studies have shown that even if you know you are being given a placebo, if you believe the placebo will heal you, in some cases it will. Apparently a belief that you are being healed actually aids in you being healed. This is what I recall, but may be wrong as I only half heard it.

If that is the case, then it could be a explanation for many so-called miracles. If the person really believes that praying to such and such a saint will heal them, then it is the belief they will be healed that heals them rather than an intercession by the saint. If statistically this occurs only one in a million times, it still would account for all modern Vatican declared miracles.

And it would also explain why there have been no physically impossible miracles, such as an amputee having the limb grow back.

Wysiwyg said:

Well if you want to discuss child rape then go see the authorities and give them the names and details. No one is above the law although some may cheat it for a time. There is no need to bag the good people. Bag the bad ones instead.

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As far as I know, she never claimed to be able to cause miracles. This was a church claim after she died. The whole idea of believing in humans creating miracles is ridiculous. Although, I might start believing were there to be some amputeees who grew their limbs back overnight.

gooner said:

Mary Mckillop has achieved sainthood. Let us pray for her.......

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OK

Excellent news

bellenuit said:

And it would also explain why there have been no physically impossible miracles, such as an amputee having the limb grow back.

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Hmm, are you sure? THis is a big world and I'm sure not everything that happens make it on to Sky news.

Agree that there is little point in giving people sainthood, if a miracle has happened, then obviously God made it happen. And God is definitely not into worshipping saints.

"The prayer of a righteous man (or woman) is powerful and effective..." just means that if God listens then it's more likely that you're on the right track. Doesn't mean God doesn't listen to us less righteous though.

Last point - God doesn't give people afflictions, in the same way that he doesn't inflict earthquakes on Haiti.

jonojpsg said:

Last point - God doesn't give people afflictions, in the same way that he doesn't inflict earthquakes on Haiti.

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Therefore these things can't be part of a god's plan, and people who claim such are just trying to rationalise.

Whiskers said:

but I'm strongly coming to the belief that there is something out there or maybe in us, in the not completely understood thalamus or diencephalon area that can attune to the rythm of the universe and help guide us to better decision making for some 'greater' purpose in life.

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I on the other hand don't believe we're special in any way, and that our purpose in life is simple to survive and pass on our genes. I'm sure most intelligent species around the multiverse have had similar delusions of grandeur.

Gods are just political tools. If you believe in gods, you will believe anything. When a politician says to bereaved people, "our thoughts and prayers go out to you", he (or she) knows very well that their prayers are not worth a cracker. It's just a cynical ploy, as a sop to people at their most vulnerable.

Calliope said:

Gods are just political tools. If you believe in gods, you will believe anything.

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Depends on WHY you believe what you believe. If you believe in some version of God because some ranting clergyman told you to, then yes I agree.

There are beliefs based on experiences however. That's a whole 'nuther bowl of wax.

Calliope said:

When a politician says to bereaved people, "our thoughts and prayers go out to you", he (or she) knows very well that their prayers are not worth a cracker. It's just a cynical ploy, as a sop to people at their most vulnerable.

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Many people say it, it's almost expected. If not "prayer", then just "thoughts". I think we have a culture of fooling ourselves into caring more than we really do. If we really cared, I think there would be far more action to match the talk.

Mr J said:

Many people say it, it's almost expected. If not "prayer", then just "thoughts". I think we have a culture of fooling ourselves into caring more than we really do. If we really cared, I think there would be far more action to match the talk.

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So true. Words released from vocal chords come so easily, leaving true intention never known. While a silent hand up lacks pomp and ceremony, it is "true like ice, or fire".

bellenuit said:

The issue I have with miracles such as those attributed to Mary M, is that if God wanted the person to live for some reason, as you say, why did God give the person the affliction to begin with?

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Indeed. And why did God cure some and not others?

I wasn't paying attention when I heard this on ABC radio yesterday, but it appears studies have shown that even if you know you are being given a placebo, if you believe the placebo will heal you, in some cases it will. Apparently a belief that you are being healed actually aids in you being healed. This is what I recall, but may be wrong as I only half heard it.

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That's quite right. The placebo effect has been well documented.
Additionally, medical science doesn't understand everything by any means and physiological events happen for no clearly evident reason.

If that is the case, then it could be a explanation for many so-called miracles. If the person really believes that praying to such and such a saint will heal them, then it is the belief they will be healed that heals them rather than an intercession by the saint. If statistically this occurs only one in a million times, it still would account for all modern Vatican declared miracles.

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How often have you heard people attribute their recovery from e.g. cancer to "visualisation of the healthy self", positive self talk, etc etc. I don't think it's unreasonable to think our mental approach can have a physiological effect, even if just in terms of hormones released when stressed as opposed to when happy.

Tink said:

OK

Excellent news

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Why?
If Mary McKillop were to be honoured for all the very useful work she did, then that would seem excellent, but the attribution to her of a 'miracle' on such a basis is the stuff of fantasy for most people.

Mr J said:

Many people say it, it's almost expected. If not "prayer", then just "thoughts". I think we have a culture of fooling ourselves into caring more than we really do. If we really cared, I think there would be far more action to match the talk.

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Exactly. Our Prime Minister is the archetypal example of this.

I've told this story before but it is worth telling again.

I had a very good friend who I half lost contact with when I shifted from his area. I used to travel past his town and sometimes I called in to say g'day. If I was running late I would skip the visit. I had intended to stop one day but I had been held up along the way and decided to miss the visit. I was in the town when the car cut out and wouldn't restart. I had broken down outside the NRMA station.

The NRMA mechanic couldn't find anything mechanical wrong and suggested it was electrical. He towed me to the local auto electrician who was busy and told me it could be an hour before he could look at it. "Was there anything I could do to fill in the time?"

I was only a short walk from my friends home so I went to see if he was at home. I met his wife coming out her front gate. She told me that H.... was in hospital, was gravely ill and not expected to last more than a day or two. On saying that I would go and see him, the reply was that it wouldnt serve any purpose as he hadnt even recognised any of the family for some days.

I went back to see how the car was, the electrician said that the car was OK. There was nothing wrong with it and it started as normal. He had done nothing to it.

I drove to the hospital and asked to see my friend. I was told go on in, he is sedated and wont get disturbed.

I walked into the ward and there he was, a shadow of himself and apparently sleeping. I was about to leave but squeesed his hand to say goodbye when he opened his eyes said my name and said he was just thinking about me.

He told me "they were about to chuck him over the fence". He hoped there was something on the other side. He'd get things organised ahead of me getting there and we have a good time together. He would put together a good herd of cattle ( He worked for my over the years with a cattle stud).

We talked for more than an hour about the past and I was finally asked to leave by the nurses as he was getting tired and the monitor was giving a message that he needed attention.

That car did another 200Klms and never broke down again. It had never stopped before that incident either.

My friend passed on about a week later.

I believe that there is something "up there" that is watching what goes on.

Whiskers said:

In regard to the option with the most responses, "I know there is no GOD we are a random quirk of nature"... I've been investigating this question for about 20 years now and am pretty firmly coming to the conclusion that we are not a random quirk of nature.

Now that isn't saying there is a god as many 'churches' and 'religions' portray, but I'm strongly coming to the belief that there is something out there or maybe in us, in the not completely understood thalamus or diencephalon area that can attune to the rythm of the universe and help guide us to better decision making for some 'greater' purpose in life.

On the issue of miracles... if you believe a miracle to be an act of god, say to save someone's life, and I mean no disrespect to Mary M, she was apparently a terrific lady... but surely if god saved a person through say Mary, surely god wanted that person to live on for some reason.

So, shouldn't we be looking at that person for whatever god wanted to achieve through saving their life, arguably more than admiration of Mary?... afterall the Commandments say god is a jealous god, so he would be cross with you if you focused your admiration/worship on Mary instead of what he was trying to achieve, wouldn't he?

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that seems pretty compatible with your trading analysis whiskers
"God... a being whose only definition is that he is beyond man's power to conceive."
Ayn Rand

Taking into account that now thought can be used to operate computer, we might be closer to explain few more things.

Same happened with Solar Eclipse while ago, that it wasn’t some kind of God’s anger but mere result of Solar system at work.

As probably mentioned somewhere in one of the 1172 posts so far, we happily use God as explanation of something that we cannot explain yet, but still want to look knowledgable.
Part of human frailty to be in control of things or know who controls things.


(We have more than 140 religions registered in Australia, some believe theirs is more important and some believe theirs is the only one and quietly move toward taking over not only Australia but also the world. This alone should ring the danger bells)

Nice story nioka.

It's stories like these, and similar happenings to others and myself that make me believe in a greater power. Whether this greater power is ' God ' or something else, I don't know.

Happy said:

Taking into account that now thought can be used to operate computer, we might be closer to explain few more things.

)

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There are physical explanations if one wants to understand. Some follow what they want to follow and only see what they want to see.

Its a big story, a good start for me years ago was a book by the title "The intuitive Edge" by Philip Goldberg, 1983

Intuition is defined by what it is not: reason, logic, analysis and observation. It is a single event, a snapshot, and it just happens when least expected, without rules. Intuition is inexplicable. Rationality may both precede, and follow, an intuitive breakthrough. Actually, rationality and intuition are symbiotic, work in tandem, and surprisingly, intuition is a part of rational thinking. How often does it happen that we start to analyze something, then have a spontaneous hunch and leap to another track entirely? While deduction follows the rules of logic, intuitive insights can spark an inductive process drawing conclusions from a limited set of observations.

Intuition and psychic phenomena have a relationship to the extent that only precognition qualifies as intuition. The others like telepathy, clairvoyance, and clairaudience offer other sensory channels bringing in data subliminally or psychically. Intuition implies the unexpected. The knowledge revealed cannot be something that most people would come up with under the same circumstances.

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However this is just a small excerpt.

Richard Dawkins receent book "the God Delusion" (which I have mentioned earlier on this thread) offers practical insight also. His web page under his name can lead you to his thesis.

explod said:

Its a big story, a good start for me years ago was a book by the title "The intuitive Edge" by Philip Goldberg, 1983

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I haven't read this, but understanding intuition as distinct from impulse, and learning how to distinguish and utilise intuition is the path I was led to many years ago.

Similarly, there is no such thing as luck or coincidence. There is always something behind it... that is often misunderstood.

Could god be called 'Intuition', in it's pure and perfect form?

Whiskers said:

Could god be called 'Intuition', in it's pure and perfect form?

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I think of it as nature, some call it God but this can lead some away from the clear thinking required of evolution and its manifestation into the amazing intellect of the human brain and the wonders of other natural beings.

Happy said:

Same happened with Solar Eclipse while ago, that it wasn’t some kind of God’s anger but mere result of Solar system at work.

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No prejudice toward humans, indeed anything, is evident throughout history, that is B.C. or AD. Start your own religion. None are right. People believe (imagine) whatever they want as this is part of mind.
The words they re-print from thousands of years ago has no relevance or "connection" to the workings of the observable universe.

I have'nt had time to go through the whole of the post.

But yes there is a god.

The dyslexic people call dog.