Is there a GOD?

[disarray]

first i've heard of that!

well you learn something every day

 

[Rafa]

actually i haven't yet...
all i have is your statement...

do you have anything more than that disarray?

 

[disarray]

dude if you want to know something just go google it. the upshot is muslims entered indias north and conquered and killed lots of people to set up their little empire. that is religious conflict.

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=muslim+hindu+conflict+history&meta=

dyor, but failing that, just blame whitey. its much easier that way.

 

[Sean K]

dude if you want to know something just go google it. the upshot is muslims entered indias north and conquered and killed lots of people to set up their little empire. that is religious conflict.

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=muslim+hindu+conflict+history&meta=

dyor, but failing that, just blame whitey. its much easier that way.

I think the Hindu/Muslim conflicts were more cultural and ethnic based rather than religious. It's difficult to see the difference sometimes, even in todays Islamic fundamentalst war v the West. Is it religion v religion, or culture v culture. I hesitate to say the later. Up for argument I suppose.

 

[Rafa]

google can find you anything you want... fact or fiction
you only have to look at the websites google brings up when you try and research the israel palestine conflict... each one contradicted the other.

having studied Indian history, i find these claims are recent, and coincide with the rise of hindu fundamentalism and the rise to power of hindu nationalist parties in the late 90's.

they may or may not be true...

but countries getting invaded by another were common place till not so long ago... find it strange that this is being regurgitated as the start of the 'hindu-muslim' conflict!

I am not sure if the old saying of 'History is written by the winner' rings true anymore... more like history is recorded by those who can get their website to the No 1 spot on Google!

 

[disarray]

google can find you anything you want... fact or fiction
you only have to look at the websites google brings up when you try and research the israel palestine conflict... each one contradicted the other.

yeah thats the point of research. read both sides of the story and form your own opinion based on the evidence.

having studied Indian history, i find these claims are recent, and coincide with the rise of hindu fundamentalism and the rise to power of hindu nationalist parties in the late 90's.

being an historian myself i found your claim that muslims and hindus lived side by side in apparent harmony until the british arrived to be incorrect and called you on it. it is historic fact that arab muslims followed the dictates of their aggressive religion and invaded northern india which was at that time hindu. so arabs, indentifying themselves as muslims, fought hindus who resisted = religious war. this refutes your statement that everything was happy until the british arrived. not much grey area there.

but countries getting invaded by another were common place till not so long ago... find it strange that this is being regurgitated as the start of the 'hindu-muslim' conflict!

it is still common now. in fact it could be argued muslims are continuing their aggression against the west through a passive immigration invasion, seeking once again to bring the caliphate into western europe. you'll find plenty of videos on youtube of european muslim leaders stating this bluntly.

as for this being some "regurgitation" of a hindu / muslim conflict, i don't know how you can look at the historical facts and conclude it is anything other than a religo-ethnic conflict, which had absoutely nothing at all to do with the british empire. your liberal guilt is showing.

I am not sure if the old saying of 'History is written by the winner' rings true anymore... more like history is recorded by those who can get their website to the No 1 spot on Google!

dissemination of information is vital in the battle for hearts and minds. this is nothing new, however the rise of the internet & mass media has given people the ability to be heard whereas before they were not. this is good in that we have more information, and bad in that religious psychos use this as validation for their delusions.

 

[2020hindsight]

Helllo Wayne, I do wish you well .
Ive always admired your intellect, why post a reply to the inconsequentials ?
Bobby.

Hey Bobby
here's an open letter

The above post demonstrates only that
a) you are quite capable of complimenting moderators , (gee I nearly said sucking up to them lol) , and
b) also of insulting other posters for reasons only known to yourself ...

I offer you this chance to redeem yourself, to crawl out of your insignificance / inconsequentiality ....

you will find a table on post #11 on this thread ...
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6046&highlight=march

now if you have brought it up to date by Sunday night, then that would be great because I may not have time to do so (since I am working both Saturday and Sunday) .

If not I guess I'll try to make time to do so- in due course

pawn to king four man - your move ...

 

[2020hindsight]

Dawkins on again tonight, ABC 9.30pm

the God Delusion :-

A history of religious conflict.
The impossibility of disproving the existence of God - something that has become a 'get out of jail free' argument for the inviolability of religion.
Morality, where it becomes extra-religious; many moral changes and definition (e.g. women's rights, black civil rights) have occured sometimes against the resistance of the religious community.
The fact that in some countries religion remains an excuse for the subjugation of women's rights.
The fact that by forcing religious belief on our children we are denying them intellectual freedom.
Denial of evolution which is an impediment to intellectual progress.
Science fulfilling the same psychological needs as religion.

 

[2020hindsight]

great comparison on that Dawkins show between the morality and social interaction of Chimps vs the same for humans ...

"You can think of it as Chimps are DOS, and humans are Windows XP"

although some of those fundamentalists were back pre-programmable-calculator sheesh.

 

[Mousie]

pawn to king four man - your move ...

Pawn to king four? Pawn to queen bishop four then

Sorry can't resist; not joining in the debate in any way, carry on gents/ladies

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

That which is man made is not real outside of this Earth.

Take a look at the universe for what it is (the sun is not the centre just for the dumbos)

The man made concept is null and void in reality.

 

[2020hindsight]

Another thing Dawkins mentioned was a case of a doctor at a clinic that terminated unwanted pregnancies - murdered by a "pastor" of some church in USA. The pastor has since been sentenced to death , and this has been carried out ( I believe I heard it right).

When he interviewed the pastor's friend (another pastor), he concluded that the friend was equally misguided and of similar persuasion - no question his friend was in Heaven etc - (too bad about the doctor's wife and kids etc).

In summary Dawkins quoted some Nobel prizewinner (name escapes me) who said

"Good things are always being carried out by good people
Evil things are always being carried out by evil people
But to have evil things
carried out by good people
you need..
religion."

 

[anne]

Here's something to make you shake in your boots:

...'the current president of the United States unblushingly reveals that God talks directly to him and uses his Christian name."

Not even the popes and archbishops of Cantebury have claimed that as far as I know.

What does this mean?

1. George Bush truly is a special guy in God's eyes, more special than just about all God's other devoted followers

2. George Bush is mad

3. George Bush is playing the religious card for all he can and he probably doesn't believe in God one little bit, but he does believe in winning the support of all those religious votes and will do whatever that takes, and he also believes that his ideas are correct so that the end justifies the means.

4. The author of the book I read this piece in got it wrong (it was from 12 books that changed the world, by Melvyn Bragg.)

Wouldn't it be funny if not only George Bush didn't believe in supernatural god-jesus stuff, but that the popes and the archbishops of cantebury and other religious heads didn't believe in it either!!! They say among themselves "of course we don't believe those ancient fairy stories, but it's a good tradition that works well to control our flock so who are we to spoil things?"

It's one thing to ask whether we believe in God and the bible story-line; it's another thing to ask whether the so-called custodians of the religious dogma actually believe in it themselves.

The bishop from Oxford on Richard Dawkin's show last night sure did have a mighty flexible attitude to which bits in the story that he admitted to believing in. He wasn't keen on the virgin Mary stuff but was keen on the rising from the dead stuff. He reckons modern day evidence tells us that the bible( God???) got it wrong on on homosexuality that we need to now correct that view.

Dawkins was pretty surprised by this bishop's cherry picking approach too. Why don't those guys just come clean?

It's so paternalistic. Here's a novel idea: introduce the idea that it's a basic human right to be told the truth and not just fed stuff that authorities think is good for us.

Cheers Anne

 

[retroaugogo]

Here's something to make you shake in your boots:

...'the current president of the United States unblushingly reveals that God talks directly to him and uses his Christian name."

I'd say with Kevin Rudd being a born again christian that there's a pretty good chance he speaks to Kevin too.

Nice to see God raising up his men.

 

[wayneL]

From Wikipedia

Signs and symptoms

A person experiencing schizophrenia may demonstrate a variety of symptoms; these may include disorganized thinking, delusions and hallucinations, in particular auditory hallucinations

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.dreamtime.net.au/indigenous/spirituality.cfm
Spirituality amongst Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders

...Some Indigenous Australians share the religious beliefs and values of religions introduced into Australia from other cultures around the world, particularly Europe. But for most people religious beliefs are derived from a sense of belonging-to the land, to the sea, to other people, to one's culture.

The form and expression of spirituality differs between Aboriginal people and Torres Strait Islanders. Aboriginal spirituality mainly derives from the stories of the Dreaming, while Torres Strait Islander spirituality draws upon the stories of the Tagai.

Missionaries are lousy listeners

So the sad thing about it all was the missionaries didn't realise that we already had something that tied in with what they'd brought to us. They saw different as inferior, and they didn't ask us what it was that we had. And it's very sad because if they had asked... things may have been different today.

Our people, before the white man came were very spiritual people. They were connected to land and creation through the great spirit, there was a good great and a great evil spirit... And Satan was the great evil one. So there wasn't much difference in what the missionaries brought and what we already had... .

Wadjularbinna Doomadgee,
Gungalidda Leader,
Gulf of Carpentaria, 1996.

Missionaries were (often) instruments of Govt policy....(stolen generation etc)

Since the European colonisation of Australia, Indigenous Australians have had contact with missionaries and their missions. This relationship has been a difficult one. In some instances missions became instruments of government policy, engaging in practices such as forcibly separating Aboriginal children from their families in order to maximise control over the child's education into Christian ways and beliefs. In this way, (some) missions contributed to the suppression of Aboriginal cultural practices and languages.

What is the Dreaming?
... The Dreaming has different meanings for different Aboriginal people. It is a complex network of knowledge, faith and practices that derive from stories of creation, and which dominates all spiritual and physical aspects of Aboriginal life. The Dreaming sets out the structures of society, the rules for social behaviour and the ceremonies performed in order to maintain the life of the land.

It governed the way people lived and how they should behave.
Those who did not follow the rules were punished.

The Dreamtime or Dreaming is often used to describe the time when the earth and humans and animals were created. The Dreaming is also used by individuals to refer to their own dreaming or their community's dreaming.

During the Dreaming, ancestral spirits came to earth and created the landforms, the animals and plants. The stories tell how the ancestral spirits moved through the land creating rivers, lakes and mountains. Today we know the places where the ancestral spirits have been and where they came to rest. There are explanations of how people came to Australia and the links between the groups throughout Australia. There are explanations about how people learnt languages and dance and how they came to know about fire.

In essence, the Dreaming comes from the land. In Aboriginal society people did not own the land it was part of them and it was part of their duty to respect and look after mother earth.

The Dreaming did not end with the arrival of Europeans but simply entered a new phase. It is a powerful living force that must be maintained and cared for.

The Rainbow Serpent is represented as a large, snake-like creature, whose Dreaming track is always associated with watercourses, such as billabongs, rivers, creeks and lagoons. It is the protector of the land, its people, and the source of all life. However, the Rainbow Serpent can also be a destructive force if it is not properly respected.

The Rainbow Serpent is a consistent theme in Aboriginal painting and has been found in rock art up to 6000 years old. The Rainbow Serpent is a powerful symbol of the creative and destructive power of nature. Most paintings of Rainbow Serpents tell the story of the creation of the landscape particular to an artist's birthplace. Some aspects of Rainbow Serpent stories are restricted to initiated persons but generally, the image had been very public. Today, most artists add personal clan designs to the bodies of Rainbow Serpents, symbolising links between the artist and the land.

The Mimi Spirits
The Mimi are tall, thin beings that live in the rocky escarpment of northern Australia as spirits. Before the coming of Aboriginal people they had human forms. The Mimi are generally harmless but on occasions can be mischievous.

When Aboriginal people first came to northern Australia, the Mimi taught them how to hunt and cook kangaroos and other animals. They also did the first rock paintings and taught Aboriginal people how to paint.

The Tagai
The people throughout the Torres Strait are united by their connection to the Tagai. ..These stories focus on the stars and identify Torres Strait Islanders as sea people who share a common way of life. The instructions of the Tagai provide order in the world, ensuring that everything has a place.

One Tagai story depicts the Tagai as a man standing in a canoe. In his left hand, he holds a fishing spear, representing the Southern Cross. In his right hand, he holds a sorbi (a red fruit). In this story, the Tagai and his crew of 12 are preparing for a journey. But before the journey begins, the crew consume all the food and drink they planned to take. So the Tagai strung the crew together in two groups of six and cast them into the sea, where their images became star patterns in the sky. These patterns can be seen in the star constellations of Pleiades and Orion

Let's face it,
they are just as likely to be correct as any other spiritual belief.

PS During the Opium Wars in China, (some) missionaries became drug pushers to get the Chinese hooked on opium, and so get the attention of the Chinese emperor, who was shunning the British up until then. So much for "Christian values".

 

[2020hindsight]

you dont need any watchmaker to engineer these rocks
that swirl around the galaxies to ever changing clocks
should one explode, do up in smoke, collapse to a black hole
the whole thing just adjusts a bit, in some expanding role. (roll?)

you dont need any puppetteer to tell men how to act
it's obvious that chimps do just as well with praps more tact
but if you want to say some "God" designed it more or less,
..then please agree the man-made part is a God almighty mess.

 

[2020hindsight]

PS
As self appointed managers and Chairmen of the board,
in one hand doctor's scalpel, in the other Caesar's sword,
And ne'er a thought for fish or fowl or reef or polar bear
- just poisoning the planet's well - and greed for poisoned air.

and making out we're relatives of some imagined lord
who'll smile on us and frown on others, sanctity assured,
and watching on as hell descends, yet asking heaven's share
and filling up our coffers while pretending that we care.

 

[2020hindsight]

Pawn to king four? Pawn to queen bishop four then Sorry can't resist;

lol, sorry mousie, I'll resist temptation. Must admit I thought I knew a bit about chess until I went to see Korchnoi play 40 matches simultaneously once. Average time per move about 10 seconds lol. Just kept walking around the room, bang, bang bang went the chess pieces .

No-on beat him, but a couple of players managed to get a statemate

If we're all related to God, then Korchnoi is a much closer relative than I .
Then again, if we evolved, then maybe I can boast to being a closer relative to the noble chimp .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Korchnoi

Incidentally, I was in the audience when he played one of the matches against Karpov .. Lol what a classic... sending out yoghurt, trying to hypnotise each other lol. What a classic.

First World Championship match against Karpov
In the next world championship cycle (1976-78), Korchnoi narrowly defeated Petrosian again in the Candidates quarter finals, then comfortably won his matches against Lev Polugaevsky and Boris Spassky to emerge as the official challenger to Karpov.[4]

The World Championship match of 1978 was held in Baguio in the Philippines, and deserves its reputation as the most bizarre World Championship match ever played. Karpov's team included a Dr. Zukhar (a well known hypnotist), while Korchnoi adopted two local renegades currently on bail for attempted murder (Source: Karpov -- Korchnoi 1978, by Raymond Keene). There was more controversy off the board, with histrionics ranging from X-raying of chairs, protests about the flags used on the board, the inevitable hypnotism complaints and the mirror glasses used by Korchnoi. When Karpov's team sent him a blueberry yogurt during a game without any request for one by Karpov, the Korchnoi team protested, claiming it could be some kind of code. They later said this was intended as a parody of earlier protests, but it was taken seriously at the time.[5]

In quality of play the match itself never measured up to the press headlines that it generated, although as a sporting contest it had its share of excitement. The match would go to the first player to win six games, draws not counting. After 17 games, Karpov had an imposing 4-1 lead. Korchnoi won game 21, but Karpov won game 27, putting him on the brink of victory with a 5-2 lead. Korchnoi bravely fought back, scoring three wins and one draw in the next four games, to equalise the match at 5-5 after 31 games. However, Karpov won the very next game, and the match, by 6-5 with 21 draws.[6]

 

[Rafa]

I'd say with Kevin Rudd being a born again christian that there's a pretty good chance he speaks to Kevin too.

Sorry, that is incorrect... Kevin Rudd is from a mainstream Christian church... he's certainly no Bush supporter, unlike Howard and co... who pander to the right wing (fundamentalist christians), hence have the support of family first!


Ok... now, back to the topic...