Is there a GOD?

Investing in shares a sin?

I dont think it is. It may surprise people, but true christianity is not all about following a set of rules. There are many parables in the bible which talk about good stewardship of money, resources, gifts/talents etc.
Scholars point out that Jesus discusses money more than heaven and hell combined, or that Jesus talked more about money than anyone else in the Bible. (http://www.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=43&page=585)

I believe that investing, like any other form of business which makes money, if you manage your money well is okay. the issue with money is when it becomes the focus of your life (eg the love of money is the root of all evil, not money itself)

I beleive that the bible has a lot of wisdom for all aspects of life, including ethics/morals, attitudes, characater building, leadership, relationships, finances etc...

yeah, good point AJ...
its interesting the whole idea of SIN... when put to Jesus he replied not so much of what not to do, but rather what virtues to live ones life by...

It started with...
Love God and Love thy Neighbour, as opposed to the 10 Thou shalt not Commandments

Later, he preached, in what was recorded in the Gospels as the Beatitudes

# Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
# Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land.
# Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted.
# Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill.
# Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
# Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
# Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
# Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

As you can see, the above has nothing to do with what is a SIN or not, that was more the result of Christianity becoming Europeanised, (or some might say humanised!)... And converted into an organised state religion.

I guess this was always bound to happen once politicians got involved... but what they did was not what Jesus preached... 'let those who have not sinned cast the first stone'...

Alas, not many took notice of that... the reason being, it didn't sit well in the mould of organised politicised institutions.

In the end Christs words became a mechanism of control, rather than the pathway to freedom, which was originally intended. The good thing is that now, the Church is being forced to return to the Jesus's original intentions.

It’s sad to see the enormous freedom that Jesus brought to the world, is being taken for granted... and those hard won freedoms are being whittled away by rampant consumerism... which a lot of people think of as being free.

Interesting that most religious teachings (especially those of Buddha and Jesus), pose this very pertinent question..
"Can you really be free if you have material wants?"

PS: hope this is not too much off topic...

So are you blokes suggesting that sinning is a bit like going short on the market?
sell your soul today, pay for it tomorrow?

and anyone who ramps gets a big downhill ramp maybe?

As for sinning by gambling - if you make a motsa, and you give a bit to charity, I can only imagine you'll improve your points on the big tally board held by "Old pella he lib long sky"

Anyone had much to do with Cargo Cults?

Where the natives are sure that the planes landing are from their ancestors from heaven, and that the white man somehow has learned the magic words to get them to land on their airports.

They say you used to see the natives in PNG making these little "airfields" the size of a football field - with slopes varying up to about 30degrees lol, hanging off the side of a mountain top, and whenever the planes came over, they'd call to them to land "Here, Here!! Bring it to me!! etc).

And you'd be approached and questioned "Please tell me the magic words taubada so that the plane will land on my airport next time" etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

A cargo cult is any of a group of unorthodox religious movements appearing in tribal societies in the wake of Western impact, especially in New Guinea and Melanesia. Cargo cults sometimes maintain that manufactured western goods ("cargo") have been created by divine spirits and are intended for the local indigenous people, but that white people have unfairly gained control of these objects. Cargo cults thus focus on overcoming what they perceive as undue 'white' influences by conducting rituals similar to the white behavior they have observed, presuming that the ancestors will at last recognize their own and send them cargo. Thus a characteristic feature of cargo cults is the belief that spiritual agents will at some future time give much valuable cargo and desirable manufactured products to the cult members. In other instances such as on the island of Tanna in Vanuatu, cult members worship Americans who brought the cargo. [1]

Based on the above definition, cargo cult is also used in business and science to refer to a particular type of fallacy whereby ill-considered effort and ceremony takes place but goes unrewarded due to a flawed model of causation. For example, Maoism has been referred to as "cargo cult Leninism".

Click to expand...

Rafa said:

# Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
# Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land.
# Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted.
# Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill.
# Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
# Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
# Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
# Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

PS: hope this is not too much off topic...

Click to expand...

Blessed is Rafa for a beautiful post..yet again

Sorry, I have only read a few other posts. But for me and all my life in having many stories told to me, my never ending turmoil and challenge has been - How can a true and loving God exist having allowed the Holocaust?? This is something I will not dwell on, but it was something so calculated, rigourous & systematic, at that industrial scale - condemning 1.5 million children. There have been many others and there will be more. I have heard all the reasonings of God passing onto us a free will etc. But please, No the cost is too great.

Captain G said:

Sorry, I have only read a few other posts. But for me and all my life in having many stories told to me, my never ending turmoil and challenge has been - How can a true and loving God exist having allowed the Holocaust?? This is something I will not dwell on, but it was something so calculated, rigourous & systematic, at that industrial scale - condemning 1.5 million children. There have been many others and there will be more. I have heard all the reasonings of God passing onto us a free will etc. But please, No the cost is too great.

Click to expand...

Your view is a common one and there is some discussion in the thread about it.

A futile post really if you haven't read the thread. Sorry.

Just a few Dawkins posts on youtube...- (honest, knowledgeable, tolerant, all those things that a lot of religions are not)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZX7RyidWvc&NR=1 Richard Dawkins interviewed on Paula Zahn Now
British ethologist, evolutionary biologist, atheist and author of "The God Delusion" Richard Dawkins is interviewed on Paula Zahn Now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg&mode=related&search= Richard Dawkins - "What if you're wrong?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12TqdF4t9fg&NR=1 Richard Dawkins..Not A Trivial Error Rechard Dawkins speaking to some groups to include students of Liberty University about religion and such. Basically, he states that if Liberty University has dinasour eggs that are labeled as 3,000 years old, the students should leave and go to a proper University...pretty funny

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28pNxgD-ldc&mode=related&search= Richard Dawkins - atheism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wcG3yoSAdk&mode=related&search= Richard Dawkins describes 'GOD'

PS here's another post - but I've developed this to its final conclusion (with more about Haggard) on the "videos that send a message" thread - being pretty inflammatory , it might destroy the tone of this placid scene here :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjqUmuMhTsM&mode=related&search= Haggard vs Dawkins .. Its sad to see who accuses whom of arrogance

Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Haggard

Thanks 2020,

Interesting. Here's another Dawkins video with the liberal Bishop of Oxford. A very constructive and intelligent discussion from both gentleman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS2TFVe9LDc

wayneL said:

Thanks 2020,

Interesting. Here's another Dawkins video with the liberal Bishop of Oxford. A very constructive and intelligent discussion from both gentleman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS2TFVe9LDc

Click to expand...

wowo - fantastic
Bishop of Oxford :-
"by 1880, european christians accepted evolution
now this.. this.. creation is coming over from america" lol
I'll probably watch it all later - but the ghist is there in the first few minutes, as you say- very constructive.
Must say, at this point in time, I have only found this particular creationist er ... rap... (universe only 6000 yeaqrs old etc) spoken on youtube in american accents

Enlightened opinions about euthenasia etc - relationships , incl homosexual relationships. - interesting .

One suspects that he is a rare bishop this one.

By comparison, here are some more extracts from one of those Hovind posts. - seriously difficult to get to the end of the talk , so full of absolute garbage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNZCcTcOPV0 Critical Analysis of Kent Hovind's Age of the Earth

2020hindsight said:

wowo - fantastic
Enlightened opinions about euthenasia etc - relationships , incl homosexual relationships. - interesting .

Click to expand...

WHAT ENLIGHTEMENT are you talking about????? oops the **** meter. sorry Waynel

Maybe one question on the poll should read:
GOD is a figment of the imagination that was devised by humans who are immaterial to the greater existence of everything in the universe.

Just because man thinks of god, does that mean it is even a concept?

Maybe god is an imaginary friend for adults.

I think the answer lies with an examination of MOZART.

It's Snake Pliskin said:

Maybe one question on the poll should read:
GOD is a figment of the imagination that was devised by humans who are immaterial to the greater existence of everything in the universe.

Just because man thinks of god, does that mean it is even a concept?

Maybe god is an imaginary friend for adults.

I think the answer lies with an examination of MOZART.

Click to expand...

Oh no here we go

It's Snake Pliskin said:

I think the answer lies with an examination of MOZART.

Click to expand...

Could be right Snake - At least it's more difficult to imagine WWIII starting over something like that - the Mozartians vs the Beethovenians.

new girl said:

WHAT ENLIGHTEMENT are you talking about????? oops the **** meter. sorry Waynel

Click to expand...

Since you brought it up:

The sh!te meter registers intolerance of others views, whether they be Atheist, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, etc etc etc etc etc etc. We may be certain of our own position, but in an enlightened society (which this thread has proven Australia is in large part), we must also be cognizant of the validity of others postion, provided it has been well thought out and considered. Disagreement and debate is fine provided it is done with respect, argumentum ad hominem in its various forms (ridicule etc etc) is not.

I am taking a hard line here because these discussions can disintegrate into sh!tfights faster than you can say Jack Robinson.

So I think the rules are pretty clear here, simply respect.

Cheers

wayneL said:

Since you brought it up:

Disagreement and debate is fine provided it is done with respect

So I think the rules are pretty clear here, simply respect.

Cheers

Click to expand...

This is too easy

since YOU brought up waynel

I have a very pretty scale/meter in my house similar to the one in your post, did you take a picture of it or something??

RESPECT, amen brother or should I say V

new girl said:

This is too easy

since YOU brought up waynel

I have a very pretty scale/meter in my house similar to the one in your post, did you take a picture of it or something??

RESPECT, amen brother or should I say V

Click to expand...

I think they must have made a few of them. I got this one down at the local pawnbroker.

new girl said:

....or should I say V

Click to expand...

Huh?

I just watched most of that hovind you tube thing on the `age of earth`.I thought he had a sharp tongue for makin` mun.Probably on the door with speeches/appearances etc.

I then googled his name and found this below , suppose he needs to evolve a bit more. LOL.

I thought the interview with the B of Ox. by Dawkins breezed over all the questions.The B of Ox. seems like a nice man anyway.


Kent E. Hovind (born January 15, 1953), who sometimes refers to himself as "Dr. Dino", is an American evangelist and prominent Young Earth creationist who is serving a ten-year term in U.S. federal prison for 58 tax offenses, obstructing federal agents and related charges. He established the Creation Science Evangelism Ministry in 1989[1] and, prior to his incarceration, spoke frequently in private schools, churches, university debates and on radio and television broadcasts arguing for young earth creationism. Hovind was originally incarcerated at the Pensacola Federal Prison Camp at Saufley Field, Pensacola, Florida, and has been moved to the Federal Correctional Institution, Marianna at Marianna, Florida.[2]

Robroy said:

Hi weird,
When citing the New Testment as you do, it's good to remember a few things:

It's been subject to mistranslation at times - e.g. the word which described Jesus' mother as a 'young woman' was mistranslated as 'virgin'. (That sure started something big.)

Click to expand...

Robroy,

I'm afraid this comment is typical of the pseudo-scholarship of those who don't even bother to read the Bible they criticise.

The Gospels of Matthew and Luke in the New Testament are quite explicit about the conception of Jesus; your example of a word being mistranslated as virgin is complete nonsense, although I know where the idea comes from.

The virgin = young woman argument comes from a scholar studying the dead sea scrolls and the text of Isaiah, which is an Old Testament prophecy predating Christ by about 400 years. Pity she didn't bother reading Matthew or Luke. Yes its true, that Hebrew word in Isaiah translated "virgin" means young woman, and not necessarily a virgin. But the Gospel of Matthew, having described the miraculous conception of Jesus to a virgin who had never known a man, explicitly says that this is what Isaiah was talking about in that passage, so we know that the English translation "virgin" in Isaiah was in fact correct. (Text attached below.)

So you're quite wrong to say the New Testament was mistranslated, let alone to imply that a simple mistranslation started something big.

The rest of your remarks about later authorship and theological scholarship etc are equal nonsense, as the gospels were already being quoted in the 2nd century. In fact the number and quality of ancient manuscripts and evidence for the authenticity of the New Testament is about 100 times stronger than any other ancient document. But I won't bore you.

Basically we have 3 options:-

1) The apostles really saw something, the New Testament is true.

2) The apostles were honest but seriously mistaken.

3) the apostles were frauds, the Gospel is a lie.

Thats another subject of course.


Here's the text in question from Matthew 1 (ESV), there is also Luke.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.
Mat 1:19 And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly.
Mat 1:20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
Mat 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."
Mat 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet (Isaiah):
Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel" (which means, God with us).
Mat 1:24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife,
Mat 1:25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son.