Is Israel a racist state?

gooner said:

The immigration policy is akin to the white Australia policy. If you are a jew, come straight in, if you are an arab forget it. Sounds pretty racist to me. Israel was founded on a home for the jews. This is what apartheid was about - a home for the whites, with the batustans for the blacks. In Israel, the equivalent is the occupied palestinian territories. Israel enforces collective punishment for arabs not for jews. Jewish murderers do not have their homes demolished.

However, there is no doubt that Israel is one of the more open countries in the middle-east and that human rights are better than in many of the local countries, for example Iran, Saudi Arabia etc. Unlike Saudi Arabia, Iran etc, Israel claims to be a beacon of human rights akin to Western Countries. And that it just going too far.

IMHO, about time American acted in its own national interest and forced Israel to accept a palestinian state based on UN resolutions i.e with East Jerusalam (?) as its capital. If Israel does not play along, no aid and no weapons. I genuinely believe this will reduce the risk of terrorism in Australia and other Western countries. The oppression of palestinians is a running sore amongst islamic countries

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You missed one minor detail

20% of Israels population is Arab............

A very brief recap of Israeli history for those not familiar:

Judea was founded 1400BC by Jews (Jews/Judea). Despite wars, occupations, enslavements and exiles, by the time the state of Palestine was created by the British in 1917 the majority of the population in the capital city of Jerusalem was still Jewish (however there were a lot more Arabs in the rest of Palestine).

Heavy migration into British Palestine by refugee European Jews in the 30’s upset the Arab nations. In an effort to keep the Arab Palestinians on side, the Brits prevented Jewish refugees from accessing Palestine, stopping migration completely in 1940 (effectively trapping them in Nazi Europe) and banning the resident Jews (who’d been there before anyone else) from being able to purchase land over most of Palestine.

(BTW This didn't work for the Brits - Syria came under German rule with the invasion of France, Iraq joined forces with Germany and declared war on Britain in 1941, and the Palestinian Arabs turned on them in support of Iraq. For those who want to reduce the threat of terrorism, this just goes to show how effective appeasement is....)

At the end of the war the British, concerned the arrival of more Jews would trigger a major conflict and force them out of Palestine, tried to patch up relations with the Arab nations by stopping refugee Jews migrating en mass into Palestine by rounding them up on arrival - including holocaust survivors recently released from Germany - and deporting them into new concentration camps in Cyprus, keeping many of them there right up to 1949. In 1947, with no more room in the camps and unable to cope, the Brits handed their problems to the newly formed UN to solve. The UN, to their annoyance, kicked the Brits out altogether and partitioned Palestine, creating Israel. The Arab nations immediately declared war and created the Arab Liberation Army, funded by Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Iraq, with the sole declared intent of destroying the new state. They were helped in their cause once again by the British who championed a UN arms embargo to stop any supply of weapons to Israel, in the vain hope that once it was "all over" they could return and regain control .

The Jews, many having spent years in Nazi and British detention camps, were now facing a well funded enemy, heavily armed with surplus WWII technology replete with experienced mercenary troops escaped from the Axis forces, with no supporting nations to turn for assistance or even flee to if they chose. They were faced with no option but to fight for their lives, and continue to do so to this day.

The Israelis have had to fight like hell to survive, and have done so against the odds. The Jews founded the original city nearly 3500 years ago and, despite best efforts, remain to this day. Israel has no natural resources to speak of so they are not in it for the spoils (unlike just about every other government on the planet), they just needed a place to live without fear of persecution - something no other country has ever been able to afford them. If anyone has a right to seek self determination and to carve out a nation for themselves in that spot then they do – we helped East Timor do a similar thing against Indonesia on as strong a claim the Jews had to Jerusalem, and it was the right thing to do then.

xyzedarteerf said:

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I've never been to Israel, as it is is the nexus of all godbothering places.

A nuclear eruption in Jerusalem IMHO would help all men and women to move forward and explore the past as a scientific problem rather than the ecclesiastical conundrum that faces us now.

These people will continue to bother each other by their proximity for ever more.

gg

IFocus said:

You missed one minor detail

20% of Israels population is Arab............

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Err, I did not include that detail in my post and not sure why you raise it. The whole point of the thread is the question of whether Israel racially discriminates against its Arab citizens and palestinians in the West Bank, for example by refusing the right to return for refugees whilst allowing immigration to Jews who have never lived in Israel.

gooner said:

Err, I did not include that detail in my post and not sure why you raise it. The whole point of the thread is the question of whether Israel racially discriminates against its Arab citizens and palestinians in the West Bank, for example by refusing the right to return for refugees whilst allowing immigration to Jews who have never lived in Israel.

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Er, yes, because every Middle Eastern Islamic State has issued a death sentance by religious decree against the Jews as a race, and Israel is the homeland for the Jewish faith. So of course the Jews favour their own.

Who's more racist - a race issuing the death sentence against another race, or a country forced to enact immigration policy that involves racial profiling as a result?

Beenjammin said:

Er, yes, because every Middle Eastern Islamic State has issued a death sentance by religious decree against the Jews as a race, and Israel is the homeland for the Jewish faith. So of course the Jews favour their own.

Who's more racist - a race issuing the death sentence against another race, or a country forced to enact immigration policy that involves racial profiling as a result?

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You may want to quote a source for the death sentence issued by every Middle Eastern Islamic state as I am not aware of it. I read an article last year about the Jewish community in Iran, not big, but it exists and the members have not been murdered for being Jews, which you appear to suggest would happen given the death sentence.

I am not disputing that many middle eastern states are despotic and not well disposed towards Israel and indeed use Israel as a scapegoat. However, the thread is not about racism in middle eastern countries. It is about racism in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.

This is a little off topic in a way but Israel refuses to recognize the two other genocides of last century, Armenia and Rwanda. It is bad for business and takes away the monopoly of relating the words Jewish to genocide as the only ever victims worthy of compensation.

Also off topic, I had a conversation once with a middle-eastern man about the Six-Day War and he said that if all the people of the Arab world had of walked into Israel they would not of been defeated. Sighting external influence on the outcome.

For the record some of my best friends are Jewish from Israel including my accountant and solicitor. Quite often we agree to disagree on many issues but we still voice our opinions, including football.

It's Snake Pliskin said:

It's a ridiculous poll that will always reflect the left and the zealous right, the irreligious, the other main proselytising religions, and the misinformed. It will not reflect the balanced views nor the informed views because most are uninformed and follow what the media throw down people's throats. Ahmadinijan is taking advantage of those elements.

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Now that's a classic....

You've possibly just stereotyped 75-80% of the population in your first sentence. The whole point of a poll is to get feedback from people with all kinds of background mate, otherwise we get a nasty little word called "bias" entering the equation. You might as well add "people with an opinion" to your list of ineligible voters.

gooner said:

You may want to quote a source for the death sentence issued by every Middle Eastern Islamic state as I am not aware of it.

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the iranian president and leading theocrats have repeatedly called for the destruction of israel, and the various imams from around the muslim world throw the odd fatwa around telling everyone to kill jews blah blah. go google.

I read an article last year about the Jewish community in Iran, not big, but it exists and the members have not been murdered for being Jews, which you appear to suggest would happen given the death sentence.

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well the population has dropped from around 90,000 to 25,000 since the iranian revolution, jews have to distance themselves from any ideals of zionism, they are monitored by the secret police, have mandatory limitations on advancement in the government, military and judiciary, have travel and monetary movement restriction placed upon them, and live under the status of dhimmi. it's hardly rosy.

I am not disputing that many middle eastern states are despotic and not well disposed towards Israel and indeed use Israel as a scapegoat. However, the thread is not about racism in middle eastern countries. It is about racism in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.

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yes but the point is that this thread was sparked by the iranian presidents speech in the UN. once again as soon as someone says something about israel all the leftists get up in arms and scream "RACISM" yet never, ever is there consideration of who is making the claim and the wider circumstances at play. the mere fact that this came from iran is laughable and the fact that people are all to eager to jump on the anti-israeli bandwagon while totally ignoring the messenger (who should really be shot) just demonstrates how one dimensional the public perception of this issue is. still, it's to be expected from todays soundbyte "let the tv form your opinion" society.

A nuclear eruption in Jerusalem IMHO would help all men and women to move forward and explore the past as a scientific problem rather than the ecclesiastical conundrum that faces us now.

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That is a particularly stupid thing to say.

Garpal Gumnut said:

A nuclear eruption in Jerusalem IMHO would help all men and women to move forward and explore the past as a scientific problem rather than the ecclesiastical conundrum that faces us now.
gg

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MMM .... I think all the dead and dying people may argue that there may be a better way to move forward. I have reframed from voting on this issue as the vote seems racist on its own. If it was a vote if Zionists are rasists i would put a mouse click in to the pole.

disarray said:

israel

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I dont really intend to quote you but the obvious thing to say is to comment on your picture and lighten the mood.
Is Davros a racist or is he just mis-understood

Basilica said:

Is Davros a racist or is he just mis-understood

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Since racism refers to race, unless a left wing nut trying to stop debate, the answer is no.

jman2007 said:

Now that's a classic....

You've possibly just stereotyped 75-80% of the population in your first sentence. The whole point of a poll is to get feedback from people with all kinds of background mate, otherwise we get a nasty little word called "bias" entering the equation. You might as well add "people with an opinion" to your list of ineligible voters.

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No, I'll add anti-semitic to the list. It's just another Israeli bashing chance.

i voted absolutely. but doesn't mean i don't think the majority of islamic states are aswell.


GG's comments pretty accurately represent my thoughts

It's Snake Pliskin said:

Since racism refers to race, unless a left wing nut trying to stop debate, the answer is no.

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Viewers have obviously voted on the basis of whether they are pro or anti an Israeli state. Racism is the notion that one's own ethnic stock is superior.

I imagine the most Israelis are of Semitic stock, but then so are all their neighbours. Any attempt to judge the Israelis on the basis of racism is based on a false premise.

It's Snake Pliskin said:

Since racism refers to race, unless a left wing nut trying to stop debate, the answer is no.

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You are correct. I shoud have said Speceist and and not racist.
I am not trying to stop the debate, just to add a little humour.

doctorj said:

Ohhhhh boy. This will be entertaining.

Please try to keep it friendly folks.

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This is in my opinion, a wise statement and I totally welcome debate as i see this issue as a major threat to world peace. And Please Try and keep it friendly.
However all need to understand that it is more likley that current "Enron" shareholders will make a profit from their investment then as single extremist from "Point of View A" will change the opinion of a single extremist from "Point of View B".
Your debating audience should be the moderates as that is where the solution will come from.

As a peace offering to all, i encourage all moderates to unite, Dig a large Nuke proof hole in the most disputed square KM of territory. Escort all extremist into the hole and NUKE the lot of them. And then we can as GG correctly stated.

help all men and women to move forward and explore the past as a scientific problem rather than the ecclesiastical conundrum that faces us now.

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But perhaps i am just a dreamer?

Basilica said:

You are correct. I shoud have said Speceist and and not racist.
I am not trying to stop the debate, just to add a little humour.

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I wasn't refering to you as being a nut Basilica. Just the racist card that left wing nuts hand out daily. Marxism and PC, its cousin, stifle free speech. I should have made that clearer in my comments. My apologies if you took it the wrong way.

helicart said:

No, Israel is not a racist state, because Judaism is not dependent on genetics....it is a religion.

Therefore, a Lebanese Muslim or Christian could convert to Judaism and be accepted in Israel.

The racism card is the major subversive apparatus used by the Western democracy guilt industry, usually comprised of existentially anxious PC Marxists who want to erode freedom of religion and thought.....and replace it with worship of something tangible that they can manipulate, like a Socialist State.

When a Marxist comes on hard times, he believes only humans can bail him out.

When a Jew comes on hard times (or any religious dude), they believe they should look deeper within for an answer before hitting on their bro for a handout.....

Marxists hate religion because religious people believe in something Marxists cannot control and manipulate. ergo, Communist China's total neanderthal destruction of Tibetan culture and Mahayana Buddhist heritage.

Nevertheless, Jews have a pretty superior view of themselves.......which is cool by me....as long as they value knowledge, education, and self employment more than your average Australian, they are kosher in my books.

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yeah I'm a bit un easy about the race card being used. Race to me is defined by common physical attributes that can be used to define or group a number of people by. It can be a group of people linked by a common line of descent or ancestry but this can be very blurred when you look at it scientifically. Science seems to have a hard time defining race because our genetic history it's possible that I share a closer common ancestor with someone of a socially defined different race, than 'my own kind'

I think the race card is just an easy throw away term used by the media for an easy win to evoke an emotional response ever for or against the participants

OK2 said:

This is a little off topic in a way but Israel refuses to recognize the two other genocides of last century, Armenia and Rwanda. It is bad for business and takes away the monopoly of relating the words Jewish to genocide as the only ever victims worthy of compensation.

Also off topic, I had a conversation once with a middle-eastern man about the Six-Day War and he said that if all the people of the Arab world had of walked into Israel they would not of been defeated. Sighting external influence on the outcome.

For the record some of my best friends are Jewish from Israel including my accountant and solicitor. Quite often we agree to disagree on many issues but we still voice our opinions, including football.

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Israel needs Turkey's support in such a volatile reason, hence they can't be seen to recognise the Armenian genocide...not sure about Rwanda though; whats the story with that?