Is Israel a racist state?

jman2007 · 22 April 2009

Most of us are probably aware of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's attack on Israel during the recent UN racism Conference, in which be labelled Israel as the "most cruel and racist regime".

Does he have a point?...or is this guy just a stark raving lunatic with zero credibility? Why did every Western Government condemn his remarks? Did they do that just to tow the line, even though Ahmadinejad might have gone where they are too afraid to go?

Does the current stance of the Israeli's towards the Palestinians draw comparisons with South Africas aparteid regime during the 1980's?.. or are the Israeli's merely taking steps to defend themselves from extremist elements such as Hamas and Hezbollah?

You decide....

sam76 · 22 April 2009

kutcshhh...

So_Cynical · 22 April 2009

On the one hand Ahmadinejad is a stark raving lunatic with zero credibility, keeping in
mind his comments were for political consumption aimed at an Iranian/Arab audience.

But on the other hand, he is somewhat right...Israel is a state that prob should not be
there, was born of terrorist actions and operates as a bizarre right wing arm of the American
Govt..a democracy for right wing militarists and religious nuts.

Funny cos that last bit could easily apply to Iran at the moment too.

doctorj · 22 April 2009

sam76 said:
kutcshhh...

Ohhhhh boy. This will be entertaining.

Please try to keep it friendly folks.

disarray · 22 April 2009

jman2007 said:
Does he have a point?

not really. he has a bunch of frothing lunacy and anti-semitic hatred but whether this counts as a point i don't know. i can say if i was surrounded by arabs who have vowed to extermine me and have been driving jewish communities out of the surrounding nations for centuries i'd hate my neighbours too.

or is this guy just a stark raving lunatic with zero credibility?

he's waiting for the Mahdi. the guy is a class A fruit loop.

Why did every Western Government condemn his remarks?

because there's a larger play going on. the muslim world and a bunch of paid for cronies are trying to push anti-racism / defamation of religion laws through the UN which would effectively outlaw free speech and silence criticism of all religion. especially islam because we know how sensitive islam is to criticism, poor little innocent snowflakes that they are.

Did they do that just to tow the line, even though Ahmadinejad might have gone where they are too afraid to go?

the west still has an enormous amount of guilt over the holocaust. the germans still beat themselves up about it. personally i think they should build a bridge and get the fk over it but liberal guilt + vocal jewish nationalists keep it simmering along.

Does the current stance of the Israeli's towards the Palestinians draw comparisons with South Africas aparteid regime during the 1980's?

depends on if the black in south africa were actively trying to exterminate the white population. now if only zimbabwe could have seen the future ...

or are the Israeli's merely taking steps to defend themselves from extremist elements such as Hamas and Hezbollah?

arab muslims are an aggressive, tribal, mysoginistic people. they don't respect concession or dialogue or all the reasonable things we like in the western world, they respect strength and violence and machismo. plenty of intelligence papers and writers and historians have pointed this out over the years, and finally people seem to be waking up to the fact and are starting to take less **** from these people.

race and culture matters. people scream racism and get all worked up into a lather about it insisting we're all equal in a big happy rainbow world of equality but we're not. turbulent times are ahead.

jman2007 · 22 April 2009

doctorj said:
Ohhhhh boy. This will be entertaining.

Please try to keep it friendly folks.

Oh Dear

Sorry to bring this old chestnut up again DoctorJ, but it's been in the news an awful lot lately, so I thought it would be interesting to hear from the masses.

But I totally endorse your comments, of course we can disagree with each other guys and girls, but please be nice

jman

pacestick · 22 April 2009

It was founded unashamedly for one race

jman2007 · 22 April 2009

disarray said:
arab muslims are an aggressive, tribal, mysoginistic people. they don't respect concession or dialogue or all the reasonable things we like in the western world, they respect strength and violence and machismo. plenty of intelligence papers and writers and historians have pointed this out over the years, and finally people seem to be waking up to the fact and are starting to take less **** from these people.

Some of the right-wing Israeli settlers could also similarly be described using the adjectives in your post.

I think a lot of moderate Israeli's do not agree with what their own settlers are doing, basically taking land by force and evicting the inhabitants - the Palestinians. The settlers have the capacity to interupt and totally destroy what is left of the Peace Process. Although the Israeli Government makes half-hearted efforts to reign them in, it seems to me to be mostly a charade.

disarray · 22 April 2009

Some of the right-wing Israeli settlers could also similarly be described using the adjectives in your post.

yep. but israel is still a moderate, liberal, westernised society where women have equal rights, you are free to practice whatever religion you want without fear of violence or having to pay jizya, and you can be openly gay. opposed to say saudi arabia or iran or egypt or iraq or palestine where women are second class citizens and christians and other minority religions are leaving in droves because of endless violence against them and gays are routinely executed.

and you won't be finding an right wing orthodox jew with a backpack full of explosives on a london train so adjectives aside, i'd say the nationalist jew and the arab muslim are pretty different creatures from different cultural and ideological backgrounds.

I think a lot of moderate Israeli's do not agree with what their own settlers are doing, basically taking land by force and evicting the inhabitants - the Palestinians.

well all the settlers have been pulled out of gaza so they're not taking anything by force there. in the west bank however you are correct, settlement proceeds apace without the government seeming to interfere. but hey, the arabs have had 4 shots to exterminate israel and take the lot but they failed so maybe israel considers the land as spoils.

The settlers have the capacity to interupt and totally destroy what is left of the Peace Process.

so do palestinian rocket and suicide attacks. israel has the position of strength, if the palestinians were smart they'd back down, negotiate some kind of deal then over time gain concessions and equality, but it won't happen because they won't back down. their culture is warped, concession is weakness and backing down doesn't happen.

there's always finger pointing and blame at the israelis without any discussion of palestinians culture, society, attitudes and behaviour. why?

is palestine a racist state?

sammy84 · 22 April 2009

disarray said:
arab muslims are an aggressive, tribal, mysoginistic people. they don't respect concession or dialogue or all the reasonable things we like in the western world, they respect strength and violence and machismo. plenty of intelligence papers and writers and historians have pointed this out over the years, and finally people seem to be waking up to the fact and are starting to take less **** from these people.

Wow those are some angry words. And people of arabic ethnicity are now referred to these people I see. You could bother writing up an argument opposing such views, but the fact that you have these views in the first place indicates to me that there is no point.

disarray said:
yep. but israel is still a moderate, liberal, westernised society

Israelis previous prime minister was basically a war criminal The only reason he was no not charged was due to a technicality with Belgium criminal code.
As for being moderate, I call by firing white phosphorus shells over densely populated areas during its last siege against gaza. I wouldn't exactly call this actions of a moderate state.
I'm not saying the Palestinians are in the right either, but you can entirely lay blame on one side.

gooner · 22 April 2009

The immigration policy is akin to the white Australia policy. If you are a jew, come straight in, if you are an arab forget it. Sounds pretty racist to me. Israel was founded on a home for the jews. This is what apartheid was about - a home for the whites, with the batustans for the blacks. In Israel, the equivalent is the occupied palestinian territories. Israel enforces collective punishment for arabs not for jews. Jewish murderers do not have their homes demolished.

However, there is no doubt that Israel is one of the more open countries in the middle-east and that human rights are better than in many of the local countries, for example Iran, Saudi Arabia etc. Unlike Saudi Arabia, Iran etc, Israel claims to be a beacon of human rights akin to Western Countries. And that it just going too far.

IMHO, about time American acted in its own national interest and forced Israel to accept a palestinian state based on UN resolutions i.e with East Jerusalam (?) as its capital. If Israel does not play along, no aid and no weapons. I genuinely believe this will reduce the risk of terrorism in Australia and other Western countries. The oppression of palestinians is a running sore amongst islamic countries

jman2007 · 22 April 2009

disarray said:
is palestine a racist state?

Well technically not disarray, because they don't have a state of their own, remember? Although a lot of them in Israel would have Israeli citizenship.

disarray said:
so do palestinian rocket and suicide attacks. israel has the position of strength, if the palestinians were smart they'd back down, negotiate some kind of deal then over time gain concessions and equality, but it won't happen because they won't back down. their culture is warped, concession is weakness and backing down doesn't happen.

Equality? Remember a lot of the time it's kids armed with rocks and bottles fighting IDF Merkava tanks. This behaviour isn't bourne through some kind of warped sense of obedience to their Islamic faith, it's through desperation, they feel this is the only option open to them. Remember that Israel controls every aspect of their life, if the Israeli's don't want that food aid and medicine getting into Gaza, then they simply don't let it through. If Israel want to cut off electricity to Gaza, then that's what they do. I think if you and me found oursleves in this situation, then we'd be a tad upset too.

disarray · 22 April 2009

look i've been through all this before (at length) in other threads so i couldn't be bothered to rehash it.

basically the palestinians are in desperate straits because they have a defective culture. a combination of islam, tribalism, machismo and mysoginy means they will never be able to live in peace with the israelis so israel will have to keep curb stomping them into submission until the end of time or the palestinians change their culture.

believe it, don't, form your own opinion, i don't care. do your own research, but iran and the arab world having the gall to cry about israel being racist and the poor palestinians an innocent repressed people is bullsh1t which needs to be called out. repeatedly it seems.

jman2007 · 22 April 2009

So_Cynical said:
On the one hand Ahmadinejad is a stark raving lunatic with zero credibility, keeping in mind his comments were for political consumption aimed at an Iranian/Arab audience.

But on the other hand, he is somewhat right...Israel is a state that prob should not be there, was born of terrorist actions and operates as a bizarre right wing arm of the American Govt..a democracy for right wing militarists and religious nuts.

Funny cos that last bit could easily apply to Iran at the moment too.

Well I'm actually surprised the UN gave him access to such a public platform to launch his attack from - a little bit naive on the UN's part imo.

Interesting assessment so_cynical, but sounds very accurate to me!

disarray · 22 April 2009

sammy84 said:
Wow those are some angry words. And people of arabic ethnicity are now referred to these people I see. You could bother writing up an argument opposing such views, but the fact that you have these views in the first place indicates to me that there is no point.

well in respect to the anti-defamation of religion (read: silencing of free speech) push in the UN sponsored by the Organisation of the Islamic Conference and heavily pushed by "these people" (being the saudis, the iranians, the pakistanis, the yemenis etc. etc.) then yes, muslim arabs are "these people".

you could bother having an open mind and being aware of whats going on the world but the fact you have these views in the first place indicates to me that there is no point.

jman2007 · 22 April 2009

disarray said:
look i've been through all this before (at length) in other threads so i couldn't be bothered to rehash it.

Fair enough,

I've also no doubt you've been down this path in other threads many times before. This seems to be an extremely sensitive issue for you, so I'm going to leave it there.

Other people might take you up on referring to Iranian's as "Arabs" though, which they're definitely not - they're Persians, and they don't speak Arabic.

Interesting poll results so far, with approx 85% of results tending towards the "somewhat" to "absolutely" categories.

doctorj · 22 April 2009

There are some things that have been argued on forums since the days when news groups were popular that never achieve any resolution or change anyone's minds... This list includes: Intel vs AMD, Holden vs Ford, Israel, Coca Cola vs Pepsi, Left vs Right, the relative merits of various football codes etc etc.

sammy84 · 22 April 2009

disarray said:
well in respect to the anti-defamation of religion (read: silencing of free speech) push in the UN sponsored by the Organisation of the Islamic Conference and heavily pushed by "these people" (being the saudis, the iranians, the pakistanis, the yemenis etc. etc.) then yes, muslim arabs are "these people".

you could bother having an open mind and being aware of whats going on the world but the fact you have these views in the first place indicates to me that there is no point.

Being aware of whats going on in the world? WTF! I am now banning my self from this thread, as I fear saying something I might regret. Let the poll speak for itself, which I'm sure you will nonetheless discredit as no one in this forum would have the requisite 'awareness'.

jman2007 · 22 April 2009

sammy84 said:
Let the poll speak for itself, which I'm sure you will nonetheless discredit as no one in this forum would have the requisite 'awareness'.

That's right Sammy

7 days from now, one way or another the poll will speak for itself. Actions always speak louder than words, I think we have a good cross-section of society on this forum, so let's wait and see what comes of it.

disarray · 23 April 2009

sammy84 said:
Being aware of whats going on in the world? WTF! I am now banning my self from this thread

why? you are aware that an islamic coalition headed by the saudis and pakistanis and iranians is pushing to get anti-defamation laws passed in the UN that forbid criticism of religion right?

and that these laws will mean we have to curtail our free speech (in fact they specifically said "there must be limits to free speech") with regards to race and religion. you understand that yes?

and that iran and saudi arabia relegate women to second class citizens and routinely violate human rights and execute people for being gay and forbid other people to openly practice any other religion than islam. you are aware of this of course?

and that irans political and theological leaders have repeatedly stood up and said they want to wipe israel off the face of the earth. you've seen the articles over the years and read the reports and so on hey?

so now we've got these "people" standing up in the UN decrying israel for being racist. so i go ahead and point out gaping cultural, religious and ideological flaws in the arab world which has repeatedly tried to destroy israel and drive the jews into the sea, and bring up some points to suggest that perhaps these charges needed to be taken in a broader context than "oh the israelis are racist and the palestinians are victims".

you know, something along the lines of "pot calling the kettle black", or maybe "the arab world really shouldn't be criticising anyone else given their own track record" or even "hey lets compare israeli society to arab society and see if we can find something in the deck other than another race card".

but no, you respond with "no point talking to you, how can you possibly have that opinion?". maybe we should attach you to a UN delegation.

is israel a racist state? the question itself is pointless, one dimensional and is designed to polarise. how can you be "somewhat" racist anyway? you are racist or you aren't. every single time a thread like this comes up people just jump into their pro or anti israel camp and blather on about how they've suffered at the hands of the other at some point. it's like a bloody schoolyard, so and so did so and so blah blah.

how about a discussion of cultural factors and wider geopolitical plays that are influencing this whole thing? no, its easier just to jump into your camp, play your race cards and call it a night.

and yes jman i know iranians are persians and palestine isn't a state, you still get the point.

Is Israel a racist state?