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Is Global Warming becoming unstoppable?

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bellenuit said:
So their earnings were $296M....
Click to expand...
That was their "profit."
Revenue and profit are not the same.
bellenuit said:
Debt is not a tax deduction.
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Debt affects profit calculations.
bellenuit said:
And you still do not seem to understand that Government revenue from Glencore's gross revenue is not just the corporate tax paid...
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Not true at all.
My point was that multinationals expropriate Australian capital, leaving it the poorer.
Internal revenues are exactly that - internal.
They were never part of my consideration.
 
As an additional point, whether specific coal exporters try to avoid tax or not is a separate issue as to whether we should or should not export coal, which was what was being discussed. Tax avoidance, where it exists, should be tackled by stopping loopholes in our tax system and penalising cheats.
 
In 2012 ...

verses 1985 .... AIMS said 50% WAS GONE .... of coral verses 1985.

YES some Reefs will have 30% cover .... now 15% ... SOME 80% at 40% .... but of all the reefs ...

50% LESS in 2012 ....

75% LESS in 2018 !!

To get their data, Fabricius and her colleagues surveyed 214 different reefs around the Great Barrier Reef, compiling information from 2,258 surveys to determine the rate of decline between 1985 and 2012. They estimated the coral cover, or the amount of the seafloor covered with living coral.


That overall 50-percent decline, they estimate, is a yearly loss of about 3.4 percent of the reef. [Photos of Great Barrier Reef Through Time]

https://www.livescience.com/23612-great-barrier-reef-steep-decline.html

TWO BLEACHING EVENTS OF EXTREME TEMPERATURE occurred post 2012, in some areas three ... events 2016.2017 2018 ... others got hit twice by once in 100 year storms .... THREE TIMES

This is NEITHER an opinion NOR a conspiracy theory. It is irrefutable and called SCIENCE and MATH.

Some reefs, such as around LIZARD island had not A big cover rate to start ... Carter Reef started at 24% COVER .... its NOW ... 3% COVER ... that is 13% of 1980's average ...

13% !! Most in the area ... SAME LEVEL ... under 15% ... other regions better of course.

ONE MORE HEAT EVENT ... next 2 years and 25% will be 15% . Simple as that. Sit inside that microwave and put it on high and for 2 minutes and see how you feel.

They adjust for the initial cover and if its HALF or whatever ... its 50% ... if it was say now 20% that is 40% of what it was !!

Congratulations Humanity
The Great Barrier Reef has lost 75% of what it was in 1985.
Chances of 10% being left in 2050 are less than 1%.
The First Canary in the Coal Mine is DEAD ....
Congratulations Mr Trump, Climate deniers, idiots and non scientific people !!


They did find some local differences, with the relatively pristine northern region showing no decline over the past two decades. in 2012 .... well Lizard Island ... bye bye ... two heat events ...

all of this is availible if one LOOKS ... searches and follows MATHS ... and Science ... but here ... even simple things ... CO2 and it being a greenhouse gas .... is disputed.
That levels of CO2 for a million years we KNOW were 200 to 280 PPM is disputed ... despite air bubbles.
That current levels ... even measured by Satellite ... at 410 PPM and 20 ground stations well OUTSIDE the 200 to 280 PPM ... range for a million years, like Tobacco in the 1960's was still good for you.

IRREFUTABLE .... evidence, people actually question even chemical reactions. What CO2 does in the atmosphere.

I again ... in disbelief ... respond to science ...

Congratulations Humanity
The Great Barrier Reef has lost 75% of what it was in 1985.
Chances of 10% being left in 2050 are less than 1%.
The First Canary in the Coal Mine is DEAD ....
Congratulations Mr Trump, Climate deniers, idiots and non scientific people !!

This first Canary is dead, likely massive impact on Marine species diversity i the region. One that took hundreds of millions of year to evolve .... Well done silly HUMANS !

Second canary is all but dead. Even satellite data measuring Arctic ICE cover is disputed, even an icebreaker going to the North Pole in summer 2018, at 13 KNOTS .... ice cover THIN and salty ....

ARCTIC BLUE EVENT coming less than 15% of ice cover ... ... so too permafrost melt and Arctic Ocean Seabed frozen for a million years, CO2 released no matter what we do and methane enough to compete with Trump and win.

ARCTIC Blue likely not for 10-20 years, but holy **** when it does. The following 40 years will release 30 times our yearly CO2 emissions in 2019 and Methane which is worse, I pray its less than 2 billion tons .... the debate ... will be over. Maybe ...

But lets debate ... deny and ignore science. IRREFUTABLE ... SMOKING IS GOOD FOR YOU .... again !!

Will humanity as a species still be debating ? Ignoring science ? common sense ? Math as we just saw, is too hard ? Chemical reactions and waiting for a different outcome from a reaction conducted over a billion times ... sitting around waiting for a different outcome ?? INSANITY.

NO way we stop either canary ONE ... or TWO ... NOT a hope in hell. We are at 410 PPM CO2 and Methane being released is off the scale .... in 2019. Cant wait for the second canary die !! PARTY PARTY PARTY

Congratulations !! Well done.

PS if your loosing 3.4% a year ... well in 31 years at that rate ... THIS rate ... 10% left in 2050 ... v 25% NOW ... is optimistic.
 
kahuna1 said:
Congratulations Humanity
The Great Barrier Reef has lost 75% of what it was in 1985.
Click to expand...

Saying it so repeatedly does not make it true.
I think the facts speak for themselves, but you choose to ignore the facts, and spout garbage.
It is absolutely your opinion, that the GBR has lost 75% of what it was in 1985, with absolutely no facts to support it.

From a 2016 report by GBRMPA..

"We've seen headlines stating that 93 per cent of the Reef is practically dead. We've also seen reports that 35 per cent, or even 50 per cent, of the entire Reef is now gone.
However, based on our combined results so far, the overall mortality is 22 per cent — and about 85 per cent of that die-off has occurred in the far north between the tip of Cape York and just north of Lizard Island, 250 kilometres north of Cairns."

http://www.gbrmpa.gov.au/news-room/...e-facts-on-great-barrier-reef-coral-mortality
 
bellenuit said:
...whether we should or should not export coal, which was what was being discussed.
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Not quite.
I have no problem with coal being exported. I do have a problem with coal not having a price which reflects its global warming potential. And that is irrespective of it being exported.
We are all here late to the party.
Those accepting the science will likely agree that we need mechanisms in place that mitigate warming.
We had the science somewhat clearly outline the nature of the problem in 1990 when the IPCC first reported.
Little wonder children are marching in the street. 15 years before many of them were born we could have put in place policies that were going to reverse the potential for ongoing harm. 15 years later we still haven't done anything.
I am ashamed.
We, the older generations, should know better.
We have history to tell us that some things are inevitable if left to fester.
But we have learned nothing.
 
rederob said:
That was their "profit."
Revenue and profit are not the same.
Click to expand...

At least you understand that. But that is not what you wrote. You said: In the year quoted for Glencore, it paid less than 2% tax on earnings. You are confusing Revenue with Earnings, something that has become known as the Emma Alberici school of Accounting.

Although there may be slight industry specific variations in the terminology, for your edification, Revenue is the top line or gross income figure prior to the deduction of costs (in your example Revenue was $23.7 Billion). Earnings is the bottom line figure after costs are deducted (in your example Earnings were $296 million before Tax and $241 million after tax). In general Earnings and Profits are synonymous, but they may categories them, sometimes in up to 3 different ways, for analysis purposes. So sometimes a company will report Gross Profits, which is Revenue less Direct Expenses (those expenses directly related to the generation of that income). Operating Profit which additionally removes Indirect Expenses. Finally you may have reported Net Profit which reduces Operating Profit by interest and taxes. Earnings and Net Profit are usually the same (with again very minor industry specific variations) and is the figure used to report Earnings Per Share (EPS).

In your case you simply specified $296 million in profit upon which you said it paid $55 million in tax. That amounts to paying tax at 18.6%. Their earnings would be $241 million (Net profit after Tax). The reason they did not pay 30% is probably because they had tax losses that they were able to carry forward.

rederob said:
Debt affects profit calculations.
Click to expand...

No, the interest on Debt, if it is tax deductible, effects profit calculations. You can have debt whose interest is not tax deductible or on which no interest at all is paid which will not effect profit calculations.

rederob said:
Not true at all.
Click to expand...

Yes, true. I wrote:


I quote you: "Jobs provide tax, not revenue to the nation. Please learn economics". Our nation gets almost all its revenue from taxes. The main exceptions being payments by government or semi-government industries (Water Corporations), earnings from the Future Fund when paid and asset sales.

My point was that multinationals expropriate Australian capital, leaving it the poorer.
Click to expand...

Not worth arguing on a silly statement like that.

Internal revenues are exactly that - internal.
They were never part of my consideration.
Click to expand...

For heaven sake, just because the IRS chose to use Internal in their name, doesn't imply that corporate tax on exports is somewhat different and corporate tax is what your consideration was primarily about. You are clearly showing your cluelessness now. The government collects revenue primarily through taxation. Corporate Tax is just one part of that revenue and other parts are the tax revenue of all the inputs that make up the deductions to arrive at the corporate profit. Corporate tax on profit from exports is not External, if you think that is what the internal refers to.
 
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GBRMPA.. MARINE PARK AUTHORITY ...
Struzball said:
GBRMPA..
Click to expand...

IS the overall BODY one that does tourist stuff. .... which I did MENTION ....

IT is NOT the body doing the RESEARCH.
NEVER HAS BEEN ...
kahuna1 said:
AIMS
Click to expand...

Thats the Asutralian Institute of MArine Scince ...
Australian Institute of Marine Science is Australia’s tropical marine research agency established in 1978 .... IT IS THE ONE STUDYING the reef NOT the MARINE AUTHORITY.

Struzball said:
From a 2016 report by GBRMPA..
Click to expand...

Quoting NOT source data ... from 2016 PRIOR TO 2 bleaching events and in some reefs cases 3 since then .... is absurd. This is the body that has DUAL ROLES and one is attracting TOURSITS.

IT is so stupid .... a 2016 report ... .. that it defies logic.

Is that plain enough ?

It did say ...

Based on the results of in-water surveys to date, the average coral loss within each management area is:50 per cent in the Far Northern Management Area (from the tip of Cape York to just north of Lizard Island)

“We've seen headlines stating that 93 per cent of the Reef is practically dead. We've also seen reports that 35 per cent, or even 50 per cent, of the entire Reef is now gone.


They are referring to the BLEACHING in the Northern Regions 2015/16 ... a single year.

We have had 3 summers since then.
I have accurately quoted SOURCE and time-frame.
I am not suggesting 50% DIES in a year. .... or DID.

75% overall HOWEVER .... since 1985 is GONE ...


CARTER REEF ... I mentioned .... 23% is the 1980 average ... today ... 5% inside reef and 0-5% OUTSIDE ... less than 15% of 1985
http://apps.aims.gov.au/reef-monitoring/reef/14137S

Lets go LIZARD ... reef ... 2% NOW ... was 14% in the 1980s ... similar UNDER 15%

Lets do MACKAY ... inner part was ... 31% in 1980 ave ... out of hard copy ... but if you wish to use the 1990 ave at 28% ... that is FINE ...

BECAUSE ... its NOW ZERO .... ZERO POINT ZERO >.... and didn't it just flood there ?

Can I repeat that ? ZERO POINT ZERO
HERE IS THE LINK .. SOURCE DATA ... Link
http://apps.aims.gov.au/reef-monitoring/reef/16015S

St Crispin Reef its an outer reef ...
1980.s ave was 24%... on the link 1990 ave ... is 25% ...

NOW ... 2019 ZERO and even the outer part is 0-5% ... ZERO .... ZERO POINT ZERO
http://apps.aims.gov.au/reef-monitoring/reef/16019S

LETS GO VISITING .... more ? or are you unable to follow ?
YES SOME ... rare ones have gone up ... others ... the vast majority are well ... I now am aware are in some cases ... GONE.

Expecting a reef even the outer part of the reef still alive ... still barely there, to have weathered the runoff from the 2018/19 floods is ... being absurdly hopeful.

Horseshoe Reef
44% in the 1990's to 5% NOW ...

or outer reef at 24% to ZERO to 5% ...
IN basic terms 90% gone.
http://apps.aims.gov.au/reef-monitoring/reef/22104S

If you had followed correct links as given ... the CORRECT people who survey the reef ,,,, and not quoted a 2016 study talking about ONE year impacts ... not 1985 to 2019 as I was ... MAYBE you might get the picture.

ZERO POINT ZERO is that good ? I don't want to look at how many are in this state.

I know, I will not get anything for repeating it, correcting it, explaining it ... showing errors for what they are. And giving links. More than likely it will be denied.

The Great Barrier Reef is DEAD ... sadly I say this, so too does the 2019 survey for some reefs. Not a mere 10% left in 2050 ... DEAD today for some reefs. 100% dead.

I am disturbed and UPSET by this. Profoundly so.

Every Australian should be. DISTURBED by this.
 
bellenuit said:
Corporate profit from exports is not External, if you think that is what the internal refers to.
Click to expand...
Go and argue economics elsewhere as I have clearly made the point that multinationals take capital out of the nation.
The information you want quibble about was all available in the link.
Kahana1 has pretty well dealt with your concerns many posts back, so I won't be adding anything else on the topic.
 
kahuna1 said:
Thats the Asutralian Institute of MArine Scince ...
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm aware of that, if you'd bother read my last post about actual data collected by AIMS.
I'd already summarised the results of their surveys since 1985 which you chose to ignore. And the answer was not 75% as you continually say.

You are welcome to believe 75% of the GBR is gone.
But you can not pretend it is a fact.
 
rederob said:
Go and argue economics elsewhere as I have clearly made the point that multinationals take capital out of the nation.
Click to expand...

I wasn't arguing economics. I was explaining simple accounting and taxation concepts to you for your edification, something which you clearly did not understand.

But I am quite happy to leave it there.
 
Struzball said:
From a 2016 report by GBRMPA..
Click to expand...

Struzball said:
http://www.gbrmpa.gov.au/news-room/...e-facts-on-great-barrier-reef-coral-mortality
Click to expand...
Well the report you cited was dated 3/6/16

YOUR QUOTES
then you refer to 2017 ? When the survey was done 2015/16 ?

What relevance does 2016 have to 2019 ? St Crispin Reef in 2016 survey was 16% Cover ....

TODAY its DEAD .... zero cover !! DEAD. Not cherry picked, it was just surveyed.

http://apps.aims.gov.au/reef-monitoring/reef/16019S

Mackay Reef 2015 had 14% cover, not surveyed in 2016 .... in 2018 ... it was 18% .... it was 31% in 1980's ave .... TODAY ITS DEAD.

What is the relevance of a report about 2016 when its DEAD TODAY ?

Do you understand its 2019 ?

I did point out some extreme events post 2015/16 bleaching, massive storms and runoff .... diabolical to Reef Health, some hit three for three with bleaching.

Cherry picking ? NO ... some and a few are ok, but when not one ... I will NOW look ... how many are DEAD on the current survey.

RIB REEF rip ... 43% ave 41% ave 1990',s 37% 2016 cover to zero in 2019
St Crispin as mentioned DEAD in 2019 ZERO COVER ...
Mackay Reef as mentioned 2019 ZERO COVER ...
Hasting Reef RIP .... 2019 ZERO ... 32% in 2016 if that's any relevance as its DEAD in 2019
Opal 2 reef ... RIP .... 22% cover to ZERO ....
Green Island ... RIP ... 0% ...


So far 31 Reefs under survey 2019 ... 5 of them are NEW ...
Of the 26.

IN 2019 ... THIS YEAR .... I count 6 with ZERO cover, main reef being dead ... and scant Outer reef cover ....

Fitzroy Island ... CLOSE a mere 2% verses 32% ... Not good.

I count TWO ... in a better shape .. out of 26, 6 dead and little hope of recovery as coral left is scant and a mere 2% of what it once was or LESS in volume.

of the remaining 17, severe to extreme loss v 1985. I did cover a few on the above post ...

Am I cherry picking 6 dead, one close to dead out of 26 surveyed in 2019 ? When I did share SOME had recovered somewhat ... 2 out of 26 .... I did report 2 dead NOT 6 ... and a few of the NON selected ones that represent the state in 2019 verses 1985.

Please don't report to me about 2016, then call it 2017 when its as relevant as a building report on Notre-Dame de Paris from last month. It burnt DOWN.

In 2016 these 6 Reefs were alive, and in total ... all 6 are dead, one not far away, and of the 26 and 19 left ... gee 12 out of 19 in serious trouble. Is 18 out of 26 a good total ?

All from source, NOT some cut and paste, their reports as of 2019 ....
https://www.aims.gov.au/docs/research/monitoring/reef/reef-monitoring.html

Sadly ... we are in 2019, sadly, even simple dates cannot be read. Sadly, simple reports from 2019 with links provided are ignored over 2016 data, when the PATIENT IS DEAD !!

Give me a break, surely ... an apology ? A kiss ? I need a hug after finding out 6 in 2019 and 2018 ... if you insist ... the survey found HOW many others with ZERO cover, or unlikely ever to recover ?

You would ignore even If I shared but its sobering the total !! SOBERING.
 
kahuna1 said:
Congratulations Humanity
The Great Barrier Reef has lost 75% of what it was in 1985.
Chances of 10% being left in 2050 are less than 1%.
The First Canary in the Coal Mine is DEAD ....
Click to expand...



DEAD on the current survey.

RIB REEF rip ... 43% ave 41% ave 1990',s 37% 2016 cover to zero in 2019
St Crispin as mentioned DEAD in 2019 ZERO COVER ...
Mackay Reef as mentioned 2019 ZERO COVER ...
Hasting Reef RIP .... 2019 ZERO ... 32% in 2016 if that's any relevance as its DEAD in 2019
Opal 2 reef ... RIP .... 22% cover to ZERO ....
Green Island ... RIP ... 0% ...


SAD BUT very very correct

I am sure the Turtles which use Green Island as their main hatching ground will LOVE no Coral

Even the dumbest of the dumb can work out some things. ZERO coral is ZERO alive. DEAD DEAD DEAD

Its wonderful .... Resident Dump ... whoops President Trump. Dumb Donald is 0% still alive ? You had a hunch !! World leader ... what an idiot along with Pauline and the Liberal party policies.
 
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kahuna1 said:
All from source, NOT some cut and paste, their reports as of 2019 ....
https://www.aims.gov.au/docs/research/monitoring/reef/reef-monitoring.html
Click to expand...

TODAY ... From source .... 2019
they do surveys every year ...
Can you read ?
http://apps.aims.gov.au/reef-monitoring/reef/16049S

Seriously ..... Can you read ?

Summary of status and trends
Green Island Reef 2019
Green Island Reef 0% 0%
0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%
0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%

2019...2019 ... 2019

Reef Surveys
This page lists reefs on the Great Barrier Reef that are surveyed by the AIMS Long-term Monitoring Program. Each reef links to individual pages containing:
http://apps.aims.gov.au/reef-monitoring/

Again I ask ...since
since they do surveys every year ... very clearly and easily SEEN ..
Can you read ?

From your link ... Surveys involve a series of four or five field trips annually which are reported on soon after their conclusion.

Annually ... hmmm ... Annually ...What does that word mean ?
On your planet ... 4-5 trips EVERY year don't exist NOR their DATA ... up to date DATA ...
Would that be fair ? Your comprehension of DATA and reports ? Don't exist

I am sure the Turtles which use Green Island as their main hatching ground will LOVE no Coral

Even the dumbest of the dumb can work out some things. ZERO coral is ZERO alive. DEAD DEAD DEAD

Its wonderful .... Resident Dump ... whoops President Trump. Dumb Donald is 0% still alive ? You had a hunch !! World leader ... what an idiot along with Pauline and the Liberal party policies.
 
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Surveys involve a series of four or five field trips annually which are reported on soon after their conclusion.


Ok ... your the expert ... 37% cover from that 2016 .... REPORT .... to ZERO ...

You keep alluding to a 2016 report .... I sadly keep going its 2019 ... and this is the current DATA ....

I must take a break to think about your 2016 report being valid when 2019 data is available ... So if something was alive in2016 ... clearly DEAD in 2019 ... we still use 2016 DATA ?

NO its still alive RIB reef and 6 others ... in your MIND ...

26 others surveyed in 2018/19 UNDER 10% of 1985 COVER ... not in your 2016 report but in the reef surveys from above .... CRASHING post 2016 !!

32 out of 61 Reefs either DEAD ... or under 10% v 1985 .... post 2016 surveys are shocking . LATEST 2018 and 2019 individual reports.

Congratulations it MUST hurt. Really ... seriously ... it must hurt standing in a graveyard debating if the people buried, are still alive.

Look I have the doctors report from 2016 ... it says they are WELL !!
 
Sorry but the above ... denial of any issue climate change via LNP ... given Green Island NOW in 2019 ... just surveyed HAD NO HARD CORALS LEFT .... I am not sure WHAT will wake these climate idiots UP. Green Island has been under survey because its one of the ONLY turtle Hatcheries for Leatherback Turtles ...

It’s easy to see why Green Island Cairns has been on the tourist map for over 100 years – first as a basic lodge (grass huts) for passing fishermen and then as an opportunity for day-trippers to experience the reef first-hand.

In fact Green Island has a long list of firsts:

  • 1st tourist destination on the Great Barrier Reef – 1880s
  • 1st protected coral cay – 1937
  • 1st glass bottom boat experience – 1948
  • 1st underwater observatory – 1954
  • 1st island movie theatre (featuring underwater footage) – 1961
  • 1st crocodile exhibit on a sand cay – 1964

    http://www.adventuremumma.com/green-island-cairns-turtle-heaven/
NEW FIRST ... NO CORAL ... welcome to climate change ... I note now in the link directly above ... turtle heaven ... is that WITH or WITHOUT Coral ? ... is it heaven or is it hell in 2019 ?
 
Kahuna: You seem to think that by shouting (using CAPS, colours and bold text, etc) you can be taken seriously or something.

Please be polite and use regular text like everyone else. For many years what you are doing has been considered rude, poor internet etiquette. Just like in a face to face conversation, yelling and screaming doesn't make you correct.
 
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