Imminent and severe market correction

[dhukka]

By that logic as the Americans are also the biggest users of cars and the fattest in the world China shouldn't have cars??

Governments spread important health education messages via media.(mostly now TV). Many that have missed the boat with reading will only be able to learn and be informed via radio or TV. And are you saying that a TV has NO roll in informing the disadvantaged?

Do they? I must have missed them. So if someone hasn't learned to read they can thankfully be educated from the TV. What a horrible vision, sounds like some Orwellian nightmare.

No doubt there is link between education and health, however the TV as purveyor of education and nutritional advice is laughable. Although I guess it's good if you can get a community health announcement in between an add for Coke, and McDonalds.

Most in the developing world would improve their education if they didn't have to live a subsistence life while government invested surplus foreign income in the likes of Blackstone Group at a market top while they haven't the most basic necessities.

A Rural family I imagine would greatly welcome two phones as most have to leave home to find work elsewhere. As they receive no other help from a socialist government the idea that they can help communicating
is great for the family as well as the society. Strong family units add to the economy while broken family units cost the economy.

So don't address the issue of great droves of people leaving the rural lifestyle, just give them phones so they can communicate when they go off to the big city.

I always find it interesting that those of us in the developed world feel the need to lift everybody else out of their so called poverty. No doubt there are people in the world who would benefit from better sanitation, electricity access to education etc. However I bet there are plenty who actually enjoy a subsistence lifestyle, have no desire to go to cities, are happy and content.

The fallacy that we know what's good for others because we drive cars, have flat screen TV's and credit cards just attests to our arrogance. An interesting excerpt from John Raulston Sauls, "The Collapse of Globalism"

The private sector's industrialised vision of agriculture - which is all about mass production, large machines, and a great deal of artificial additives - is in in the same optimistic tradition. Curiously enough, this vision has always included large public subsidies. What those who live in the west have seen is that this industrialised approach to agriculture can produce food surpluses, but drives the farming population off the land, bankrupts smaller communities and, at the end of the day, leaves even the largest producers struggling to break even. The real profits of the last quarter-century have gone to the managerial organisations - the middlemen -wholesalers and large retail distributors of machinery, additives and bulk food.

In low income countries, 70 percent of employment is agricultural, in middle-income 30 percent. In the West it is 4 percent, and, even at that, the sector has been in permanent financial and human crisis since the 70's. The application of industrial agricultural methods to the low- and middle-income countries is a recipe for social catastrophe. Yet that is the dream of open markets. The most efficient will win out. Food will be seen as a secondary outcome of an industrial method. Or to say the same thing another way, this is a determinist approach towards agriculture as an industry, not a food source. Yet with 70 percent of the population in low-income countries on smaller holdings, efficiency is a very minor consideration. Food security for people without cash incomes, rural viability, natural disaster prevention, biodiversity, employment of older farmers- this is a short list of much more important issues that the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) puts forward. The message may be understated but it is clear: agriculture "performs various non-commodity roles."

Such a layered, subtle approach is now so far away from our urban understanding in the West that our typical political answer to those societies operating outside the industrial agriculture model is to block the import of their goods. Why? Well mysteriously, their products are said to be unfairly cheap, even though we also say they are inefficiently produced. Even more curious, we simply don't want to have any serious conversation about the big solution, highly modern industrial agriculture that functions inside our own societies. Nobody wants to talk about it's contradictions. For example, even with ten to fifteen thousand acres of good grain-producing land in Western Canada or the United Sates and all the best equipment and chemicals, a farmer will have difficulty making a solid and predictable profit.

 

[ithatheekret]

Awe Dhukka I thought at least you would have got my little pokes with the blip tags .

 

[Trembling Hand]

Do they? I must have missed them. So if someone hasn't learned to read they can thankfully be educated from the TV. What a horrible vision, sounds like some Orwellian nightmare.

That statement simply ignores the fact that a lot of people learn about the world from TV either News or factual (loosely)based programs. Whether they are to your taste or not is not the point. Most people through out the world get news from TV. Are you disputing this??

If you have missed some of the health and education programs that Gov and NGOs fund let me outline some Aussie examples, Anti-Smoking,
Anti-Drinking, skin cancer, Bush fire info and prevention. Storm info in the top end, Driving education, Save sex etc. These kind of things are rolled out through out the world. The people that have most to learn from these are the ones on the bottom of the social ladder.

So don't address the issue of great droves of people leaving the rural lifestyle, just give them phones so they can communicate when they go off to the big city.

I always find it interesting that those of us in the developed world feel the need to lift everybody else out of their so called poverty. No doubt there are people in the world who would benefit from better sanitation, electricity access to education etc. However I bet there are plenty who actually enjoy a subsistence lifestyle, have no desire to go to cities, are happy and content.

The fallacy that we know what's good for others because we drive cars, have flat screen TV's and credit cards just attests to our arrogance. An interesting excerpt from John Raulston Sauls, "The Collapse of Globalism"

So governments should not try with their tax surpluses to level the gap between haves and desperately have nots. Why then should they tax anything?

My point was that your criticism of a subsidy of a large portion of community left behind in a fast growing country is simply complaining for the sake of complaining. Like most comments on this thread when any move is made by any Gov.

To bring up the extract from "The Collapse of Globalism" as If that was my argument is ridiculas. When did I say that I want the " industrialised vision of agriculture " That article has nothing to do with anything I wrote about.

 

[Bushman]

However I bet there are plenty who actually enjoy a subsistence lifestyle, have no desire to go to cities, are happy and content.
QUOTE]

Dhukka - you sound like a modern version of Rousseau.

'Men in a state of nature do not know good and evil, but their independence, along with “the peacefulness of their passions, and their ignorance of vice”, keep them from doing ill (A Discourse..., 71-73).'

Maybe we can alter the colonial concept of the 'noble savage' to that of the 'noble rural poor', far removed from the 'corrupting' influences of Western civilisation.

Remember that according to World Bank estimates 88m rural Chinese live under the poverty line. Government initiatives to improve their plight in life can only be a good thing. Nutrition, health, literacy, opportunity. Do not let your Western romantic notions of a 'simple' life cloud your judgement here. Hunger and disease ain't no fun.

As for televisions, well they are perfect mediums for political propaganda too. The televisions seem politically expedient to me.

 

[ithatheekret]

As for televisions, well they are perfect mediums for political propaganda too. The televisions seem politically expedient to me.

I bet CNBC and any other republican platform will be severely curtailed and a few rocks pelted at them , if the Dems get in .


Come to think of it , it would be worth it .

Nah ..... we know they're twits anyway , worldwide , worldwide ... and worldwide .

Come on Sidney

 

[>Apocalypto<]

However I bet there are plenty who actually enjoy a subsistence lifestyle, have no desire to go to cities, are happy and content.
QUOTE]

Dhukka - you sound like a modern version of Rousseau.

'Men in a state of nature do not know good and evil, but their independence, along with “the peacefulness of their passions, and their ignorance of vice”, keep them from doing ill (A Discourse..., 71-73).'

Maybe we can alter the colonial concept of the 'noble savage' to that of the 'noble rural poor', far removed from the 'corrupting' influences of Western civilisation.

Remember that according to World Bank estimates 88m rural Chinese live under the poverty line. Government initiatives to improve their plight in life can only be a good thing. Nutrition, health, literacy, opportunity. Do not let your Western romantic notions of a 'simple' life cloud your judgement here. Hunger and disease ain't no fun.

As for televisions, well they are perfect mediums for political propaganda too. The televisions seem politically expedient to me.

I have been to rural Cambodia and China and I agree they are very disadvantaged. I lived i a rural cambodian village for 1.5 months. the standard of living was shocking not only to westerner but to a normal Khmer. they really need help in health education and the basics, running water, electricity.

Dhukka,

some do enjoy the way of life expesaliy the older generations but i can assure you the middle and younger generations all crave the great oppertuities their city country men enjoy. some are lucky to make 300$us a month.

 

[Trembling Hand]

As for televisions, well they are perfect mediums for political propaganda too. The televisions seem politically expedient to me.

Yep that is without doubt.

 

[>Apocalypto<]

As for televisions, well they are perfect mediums for political propaganda too. The televisions seem politically expedient to me.

I bet CNBC and any other republican platform will be severely curtailed and a few rocks pelted at them , if the Dems get in .


Come to think of it , it would be worth it .

Nah ..... we know they're twits anyway , worldwide , worldwide ... and worldwide .

Come on Sidney

Yep TV is a media to push agendas and scare the crap out of u. I don't know about u guy's but how depressing is the news! I hardly watch Tv now.

On the political side of Tv, last years election campaign ad's were quite funny! but my favorit of all was the liberal attack on Kim with the collins class subs rub in's.

 

[dhukka]

That statement simply ignores the fact that a lot of people learn about the world from TV either News or factual (loosely)based programs. Whether they are to your taste or not is not the point. Most people through out the world get news from TV. Are you disputing this??

No, my point is that it is not, as you believe, education. It is largely a device for corporate shills to ram their twisted version of reality down your throat in the hope that you'll buy some more crap you don't need.

If you have missed some of the health and education programs that Gov and NGOs fund let me outline some Aussie examples, Anti-Smoking,
Anti-Drinking, skin cancer, Bush fire info and prevention. Storm info in the top end, Driving education, Save sex etc. These kind of things are rolled out through out the world. The people that have most to learn from these are the ones on the bottom of the social ladder.

I need the TV to tell me that smoking is bad for me? Have we become that stupid we need the idiot box to tell us what's good for us? How many anti-drinking ads are on TV for every pro-drinking add?

So governments should not try with their tax surpluses to level the gap between haves and desperately have nots. Why then should they tax anything?

I never said governments shouldn't try to bridge income inequality, just that encouraging people to buy TV's and mobile phones isn't a good way of doing it.

My point was that your criticism of a subsidy of a large portion of community left behind in a fast growing country is simply complaining for the sake of complaining. Like most comments on this thread when any move is made by any Gov.

Here we go again, you're left behind because you don't have a mobile phone and a TV. Real progress would be if we all turned our TV's off for a year.

To bring up the extract from "The Collapse of Globalism" as If that was my argument is ridiculas. When did I say that I want the " industrialised vision of agriculture " That article has nothing to do with anything I wrote about.

Didn't say it was your argument, but it has plenty to do with what you wrote about.

 

[dhukka]

I have been to rural Cambodia and China and I agree they are very disadvantaged. I lived i a rural cambodian village for 1.5 months. the standard of living was shocking not only to westerner but to a normal Khmer. they really need help in health education and the basics, running water, electricity.

Dhukka,

some do enjoy the way of life expesaliy the older generations but i can assure you the middle and younger generations all crave the great oppertuities their city country men enjoy. some are lucky to make 300$us a month.

Congratulations on 'roughing it' for 45 days, I lived in rural Thailand for over a year and have traveled extensively through Laos, and parts of Cambodia and Myanmar. I know there are plenty of poor people out there in desperate need of the basic necessities. 'Necessities' being the operative word. A TV and mobile isn't a necessity.

 

[Whiskers]

How do you see a good way to bridge the gap between the have's and have nots in China dhukka?... assuming some degree of social equality is part of your economic master plan.

Otherwise what should China do?... in your opinion.

 

[dhukka]

However I bet there are plenty who actually enjoy a subsistence lifestyle, have no desire to go to cities, are happy and content.

Dhukka - you sound like a modern version of Rousseau.

'Men in a state of nature do not know good and evil, but their independence, along with “the peacefulness of their passions, and their ignorance of vice”, keep them from doing ill (A Discourse..., 71-73).'

Maybe we can alter the colonial concept of the 'noble savage' to that of the 'noble rural poor', far removed from the 'corrupting' influences of Western civilisation.

Remember that according to World Bank estimates 88m rural Chinese live under the poverty line. Government initiatives to improve their plight in life can only be a good thing. Nutrition, health, literacy, opportunity. Do not let your Western romantic notions of a 'simple' life cloud your judgement here. Hunger and disease ain't no fun.

As for televisions, well they are perfect mediums for political propaganda too. The televisions seem politically expedient to me.

Funny that you use statistics from the World Bank, which has been one of the biggest disasters ever foisted upon developing countries in the last 25 years.

I am totally in support of programs that promote Nutrition, health and literacy, all far more important than giving rebates for mobile phones and TV sets which is the original bone of contention.

 

[dhukka]

How do you see a good way to bridge the gap between the have's and have nots in China dhukka?... assuming some degree of social equality is part of your economic master plan.

Otherwise what should China do?... in your opinion.

Why don't you open up a new thread Whiskers? This one seems to be getting a little off track don't you think?

 

[Trembling Hand]

It is largely a device for corporate shills to ram their twisted version of reality down your throat in the hope that you'll buy some more crap you don't need.

Last word from me. That's a good one coming from someone who has a blog jammed full of Adsense and Amazon Ass. links.

Anyway back to trading the severe market correction. Got any good ones dhukka.

 

[Whiskers]

Why don't you open up a new thread Whiskers?

No!

I liked the financial initiatives mentioned so rural folk can more easily acquire a fridge, TV and phone. For me it has potential to significantly improve the Chinese economy to further decouple it from the effects of the US.

Conversely, if China collapses then the 'Imminent and severe market correction' of the US will most likely be compounded. And since China is playing an increasingly important role in Australias economy it's important to look at whether it's initiatives are benificial, and if not what is better.

This one seems to be getting a little off track don't you think?

No. Unless this thread is reserved for criticism of foreign policies!

Isn't a TV and phone powerful communication tools to enable people to lobby and or work together for better health and sanitry services, among other things?

Com'on dhukka, you're quick to criticize, that's easy. Show me that you have better economic alternatives.

 

[ithatheekret]

Isn't a TV and phone powerful communication tools to enable people to lobby and or work together for better health and sanitry services, among other things?


Eeeer , No



Fridges can do all that now

Good luck finding a frozen food service ISP in Laos

 

[dhukka]

Last word from me. That's a good one coming from someone who has a blog jammed full of Adsense and Amazon Ass. links.

Yeah I feel really conflicted because I advertise books, not as educational as the TV I guess but someone might learn something if they buy one. Also I advertise high interest savings accounts, yeah I guess people don't need those. For the record I don't have any adsense advertisements on my blog.

Anyway back to trading the severe market correction. Got any good ones dhukka.

Got any good what?

 

[Whiskers]

Isn't a TV and phone powerful communication tools to enable people to lobby and or work together for better health and sanitry services, among other things?


Eeeer , No



Fridges can do all that now

Very good ithatheekret, they can too.

 

[dhukka]

No!

I liked the financial initiatives mentioned so rural folk can more easily acquire a fridge, TV and phone. For me it has potential to significantly improve the Chinese economy to further decouple it from the effects of the US.

Conversely, if China collapses then the 'Imminent and severe market correction' of the US will most likely be compounded. And since China is playing an increasingly important role in Australias economy it's important to look at whether it's initiatives are benificial, and if not what is better.


No. Unless this thread is reserved for criticism of foreign policies!

Isn't a TV and phone powerful communication tools to enable people to lobby and or work together for better health and sanitry services, among other things?

Com'on dhukka, you're quick to criticize, that's easy. Show me that you have better economic alternatives.

Well if you believe it's important I'll let you argue with yourself about it. I've said all I need to on the subject.

 

[Trembling Hand]

Isn't a TV and phone powerful communication tools to enable people to lobby and or work together for better health and sanitry services, among other things?


Eeeer , No

Actually yes. My partner works in the health and development philanthropic field. Specializing in information and communication technologies. They have a big budget but ultimately the communities they help ask for the most basic of communication devices.

They use the simplest things to achieve great jumps in Community development. They have funded stuff like buying a video recorder for remote communities so they can produce messages and deliver them to other communities across the river or across the world. Which of course you need a TV to watch.

And a phone is one of the first things that they will subsidise.