Immigration stupidity?

[sam76]

I think there are two concepts here that often get mixed and confused with each other, and the point has been touched on briefly.

1/ Multiculturalsim
2/ Multiracialism

The two are actually independant of each other.

I agree with those who say multiculturalism doesn't work. The evidence of this abounds.

Nothing to to say that multiracialism can't work. We all have friends of different ethnic backgrounds and races (if such a thing exists) and there is never a problem so long as all embrace the same, or similar cultural values.

Post Aboriginal Australia happens to be founded on Anglo-Saxon Christian culture; this is the predominant culture and for better or for worse, is the one that should be embraced by all... or at least respected in public.

As it is, it is the least respected. Very bad!

well said - my point exactly!

 

[bunyip]

BULLMARKET

I was not aware of your question to me about the 30 week Weighted MA. I haven't been back to that thread since I sent in that post yesterday. Now that you've made me aware of your query I will certainly answer it.
However, I'll do so in my own good time. I am not at your beck and call.....I will respond when it suits me as there are more important things going on in this world for me atm than replying to your posts when you want me too.

And no - I'm not genuinely interested in your views. I invited you to share them simply because that was what this thread was about.....expressing our views on multiculturalism. The thread was not started by Bobby so that people who expressed their views could be criticised and branded as racists.

I certainly won't be going to your past posts to find out your feelings on multiculturalism or anything else for that matter.

RAFA

The Susanese in my city send their kids both to state high schools, and also to private Christian schools, mostly Catholic and Lutheran. I presume that means they belong to the Christian persuasion, rather than Muslim. And they're not all bad either, far from it - there are lots of decent and respectable people among them, just as I'm sure there are decent and respectable Asians in such trouble spots as Cabramatta. But there's a bad element among them too, and this element is causing plenty of trouble.

Regarding the university dean.....I think maybe we're talking about a different person. The bloke I'm referring to was a professor, and when interviewed on TV he had an Australian accent if my memory serves me correctly. The news story I saw made no mention of him saying anything about 'Asians who are too smart for us, or Africans with pre-historic brains'.
If any person holds those views, then I certainly do not agree with them. And if any university dean expressed those sentiments, then he deserves to be suspended.
The report I saw simply said that he'd been suspended for expressing his views that multiculturalism is not working in Australia or any other country in which it has been tried, that it leads to crime and violence and disharmony, that our government has made a mistake with it's multicultural policy.

Bunyip

 

[bullmarket]

no problem bunyip

I just called how I saw your post and gave my reasons......I can't be any fairer than that - and you still haven't disclosed the name of "your city" so anyone that might be interested can go check if the claims you made are in fact true or not - I'm not convinced the claims you made regarding "your city" are true.

And from my point of view there's no hurry to answer the question, if at all, I asked as you will have seen I asked simply out of curiosity - but others may or may not be interested in your reply.

see you in the soup.

bullmarket

 

[bullmarket]

Hi wayneL

I think there are two concepts here that often get mixed and confused with each other, and the point has been touched on briefly.

1/ Multiculturalsim
2/ Multiracialism

The two are actually independant of each other.

I agree with those who say multiculturalism doesn't work. The evidence of this abounds.

Nothing to to say that multiracialism can't work. We all have friends of different ethnic backgrounds and races (if such a thing exists) and there is never a problem so long as all embrace the same, or similar cultural values.

Post Aboriginal Australia happens to be founded on Anglo-Saxon Christian culture; this is the predominant culture and for better or for worse, is the one that should be embraced by all... or at least respected in public.

As it is, it is the least respected. Very bad!

I disagree that multiculturalism and multiracialism are totally independent. I base that on my opinion that you cannot expect immigrants from other cultures to totally give their old ways of life and accept Anglo-Saxon Christian culture, as you put it, anymore than you could expect an Australian who immigrated to a non Anglo-Saxon Christian culture to totally give up our Australian way of life, whatever that is. There has to be a balance somewhere and from where I am sitting atm we and the rest of the world is having extreme difficulty finding that balance. There is no quick and easy solution otherwise it would have been implemented by now.

Re your "Post Aboriginal Australia happens to be founded on Anglo-Saxon Christian culture; this is the predominant culture and for better or for worse, is the one that should be embraced by all... or at least respected in public." I could be wrong but to me you appear to be selecting a convenient point in time to suit your view.

Assuming you believe immigrants should accept the predominant culture in their new land then extending that view indefinitely, and not selecting a convenient point in time, then surely the settlers that arrived on our shores in the First Fleet should have adopted the predominant culture of their new land at that time and that being the Aboriginal culture and ways of life back then.

Happy to discuss further with you if you like but the Opening Ceremony starts soon so I'll pop in tomorrow.

Have a nice evening

bullmarket

 

[crackaton]

Hi Bullmarket

I'm not at all offended by your opinion that I'm coming across as a racist. Amused, yes, but not offended.
That university professor I mentioned was branded a racist too, simply because he stated, as I've done, that multiculturalism isn't working here, hasn't worked in other countries, and leads to increasing levels of crime/violence/disharmony.
Someone wrote into the local paper in my area, and expressed his concern about the increasing Sudanese related incidents of violence and other crimes. He was immediately branded a racist too, by three people who wrote to the paper and gave him a serve.
And no - I don't have verifiable proof of this - I don't make a point of keeping clippings from papers. Nor do I make a habit of always carrying a camera with me to snap pictures of every gang of thugs I see, so that I can supply 'verifiable proof' to people like you.
You can believe me or disbelieve me, that's up to you...its all the same to me.

You've judged me as a racist because of the views I've expressed, but you haven't expressed any views of your own.
So tell me, Bullmarket.......what are your views on multiculturalism?

Is it working here, or is it causing problems that may have been largely avoided if we'd been more selective in who we brought into our country?

Do you share my opinion that our immigrants should embrace our culture, our language, our way of life?

Do you think they're doing so?

Do you think immigrants from vastly different cultures, religions etc are compatible with mainstream Australia?

Do you think they want to be compatible?

Do you think they're making the effort to be compatible?

Do you think Australia should feel obligated to import people from countries that are torn by civil wars, dictatorships, internal strife etc?
Is it really our responsibility to act as nursemaid to the rest of the world?

I'm sure you have a TV and you watch the news each night. Do you like what you're seeing in other countries that have adopted multiculturalism, and do you think multiculturalism is working in those countries?

Perhpas you might like to give us your views on religion too. For example.......

Do you think we should embrace/tolerate the Muslim religion?

Do you think the Muslim religion tolerates other religions, particular Christianity which is the mainstream religion in Australia?

From your observation of other countries, (and here in Australia too) do you see any problems resulting from religious differences, particularly where Muslims are involved?

For the record, Bullmarket......I don't consider anyone as inferior to me on the basis of their religion, culture, race, skin colour, education, gender, or anything else.
I just don't like the way that certain elements of foreigners are slowly but surely stuffing up Australia and the Australian way of life.

Bunyip

I agree.

Unfortunately it is too late. And I think you'll find lots of belligerent rednecks and racists voicing their anger in years to come. PEOPLE WHO WOULD HAVE EMBRACED SENSIBLE MULTICULTURISM NOT THE STUPIDITY THAT IS NOW THE NORM. THESE A$$HOLES ARE HERE FOR ONE PURPOSE AND THEY SEE THIS COUNTRY AS AN EASY TARGET.

 

[Joe Blow]

Lets keep this discussion civilised everyone.

I know it's a very emotive topic that people feel strongly about but lets do our best to dicuss the issue in a reasoned and respectful manner.

Thank you.

 

[Julia]

Rafa:

Thank you. Your remarks re the Sudanese are what I was going to comment on. They are very different people and should be viewed accordingly. I endorse absolutely your comments here.

Re the Professor at Macquarie: He made several very appropriate comments re racism/multiculturalism, but then rather spoiled it, as I recall, with the sort of qualifying remarks which Rafa has quoted. The university vice-chancellor did, however, rather over-react imo. So much for free speech! I believe he had the right to say what he did and we can choose to agree with all or some of it.


bullmarket:

Bunyip related a couple of anecdotes supporting his views about multiculturalism. Why should he be required to provide "verifiable information "to support these anecdotes. If I make a post which describes that I fell out of a tree today are you going to ask me to provide "verifiable support" that I am in fact making a true statement? Aren't you being rather precious here? Why would anyone contributing to this thread make any comment or relate any anecdote if it were not true, for heavens' sake?
Bunyip relates the incident which occurred at his daughter's school.
What sort of "verifiable support" do you expect him to provide in this regard?

You have stated your support for multiculturalism?

Why, then, are you not happy to commit that support in the form of answers to Bunyip's questions which are indeed clear and something we could all do well to think about.

Incidentally, if you were so involved in the spreadsheet, why would you have interrupted such engrossing activity to even check in and read the thread in the first place?


Snake:

You have been living in Japan for some while now as I understand it.
You are therefore in a position to comment on this topic from the opposite point of view. Could you comment on what changes you feel you have had to make to your personality (as it appears publicly), and your general attitudes, to enable you to live in Japan in such a way that makes your presence acceptable to the Japanese people who, after all, are a very different culture from ourselves.


Just two other comments on this thread. I have a friend who spent a few years nursing in Saudi Arabia. She was obliged to adhere to their standards of dress (fully covered up) much as she disliked it. Why should the same not apply when people from other cultures wish to live here?

The prolific breeding of some immigrants has been mentioned. That is all well and good if they are going to make a contribution to our culture and our economy. It is a very different matter if they purely exist on the support of our (taxpayer funded) social welfare system. I'm not sure how many know of the actual benefits payable in this sort of situation. As an example, today I was asked to do an assessment of a family seeking payment of overdue electricity, phone and rent payments. There was the husband on a Disability Support Pension, Wife on Parenting Payment and four dependent children.
They receive almost $1000 per week. Not a hell of a lot of incentive to look for a job, is there.

Julia

 

[wayneL]

Hi wayneL

I disagree that multiculturalism and multiracialism are totally independent. I base that on my opinion that you cannot expect immigrants from other cultures to totally give their old ways of life and accept Anglo-Saxon Christian culture, as you put it, anymore than you could expect an Australian who immigrated to a non Anglo-Saxon Christian culture to totally give up our Australian way of life, whatever that is. There has to be a balance somewhere and from where I am sitting atm we and the rest of the world is having extreme difficulty finding that balance. There is no quick and easy solution otherwise it would have been implemented by now.

Perhaps I came across as a little bit hard line and I didn't intend it to. But if I emigrated to a different culture, I would expect to have to adapt to that culture, speak the language and try and fit in. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the same from immigrants who come here....otherwise why come, it seems futile. But at the same time, I enjoy the influences of different cultures. So while people are fitting in, its also a good thing if that is "coloured" by their old culture. It is just an issue of respect on both parts.

As far as the racial/cultural thing, we will have to agree to differ, because I see them as totally separate issues. I came to this conclusion by observing my ethnic friends, who made them separate issues all by themselves. But no problem, I will not be doing any proselytising. You can link the two issues if you want.

Re your "Post Aboriginal Australia happens to be founded on Anglo-Saxon Christian culture; this is the predominant culture and for better or for worse, is the one that should be embraced by all... or at least respected in public." I could be wrong but to me you appear to be selecting a convenient point in time to suit your view.

Assuming you believe immigrants should accept the predominant culture in their new land then extending that view indefinitely, and not selecting a convenient point in time, then surely the settlers that arrived on our shores in the First Fleet should have adopted the predominant culture of their new land at that time and that being the Aboriginal culture and ways of life back then.

Happy to discuss further with you if you like but the Opening Ceremony starts soon so I'll pop in tomorrow.

Have a nice evening

bullmarket

Yes it is a convenient point for us anglos'... and most inconvenient for the indigenous people. And thats very unfortunate for them. But anglo christian culture did become entrenched as a result and we can't now change that unless by being subserviant to new cultures. That would be, and is, very destabilising and I can only see that as a negative for all, including the immigrants. However, I think that we could go some ways towards accepting some indiginous culture into the mainstream, but that seems to be a minefield in itself, so won't go past expressing the sentiment only.

As far as the immigrant antagonists go, I am left wondering why folks come here only to recreate what they left behind.:dunno:

Enjoy.

 

[bunyip]

Bullmarket

No, I haven't named the city near which I live. Nor will I. Can't see the point.
I'm relating true stories/incidents/information about the multicultural situation in my neck of the woods.
Your doubting of my information is noted, but is of little interest.
I don't feel under any obligation whatsoever to supply you with a means of checking the accuracy of my information.
It would be virtually impossible to do so anyway, for the reasons that Julia has correctly pointed out.

The effects of multiculturalism are plain for everyone to see. Its not a pretty picture, and it gets worse by the day.
I wonder if supporters of multiculturalism will still feel the same way if (or should that be when?) our cities start descending into the kind of multicultural-induced chaos we saw recently in Paris.

Talking of racists......The person most recently branded a racist (apart from myself of course) is Queensland premier Peter Beattie.
A few days ago three aboriginal boys aged between 8 and 10 were killed by a train while playing on a railway line.
Peter Beattie publicly stated that the accident would have been avoided if the parents of the boys had been responsible enough to properly supervise them, instead of letting them play on the railyway tracks.
The aboriginal community immediately branded him a racist.

Its real easy to earn a 'racist' tag these days. You don't have to claim that anyone is inferior to you, and you don't have to make degrogatory comments about them. All you have to do to earn your 'racist' badge is to speak the truth about someone who is of a different race to yourself.

Bunyip

 

[bullmarket]

Hi bunyip

Bullmarket

No, I haven't named the city near which I live. Nor will I. Can't see the point.
I'm relating true stories/incidents/information about the multicultural situation in my neck of the woods.
Your doubting of my information is noted, but is of little interest.
I don't feel under any obligation whatsoever to supply you with a means of checking the accuracy of my information.
It would be virtually impossible to do so anyway, for the reasons that Julia has correctly pointed out.

no problem.....obviously I accept that you are under no obligation to name the city you referred to or provide proof to back up the claims you made - that goes without saying.

But on the same note, no-one is under any obligation whatsoever to just blindly believe any unsubstantiated claims that people make - especially on chat sites.

Obviously some will choose to believe unsubstantiated claims and others will not - I don't have a problem with that at all

But I am in the camp that chooses to not blindly believe unsubstantiated claims.......and that is just me and it's as simple as that

To be honest, the more people get defensive or aggressive towards those that don't blindly believe them the more confident I am that my perceptions are correct and that there is another hidden agenda driving their original views and reactions to those that don't blindly believe them.

cheers

bullmarket

 

[Prospector]

Yes Bunyip - I do agree that people do resort to the racist claim whenever someone (like Beattie) says anything negative about a situation when racial status is not relevant.

At the same time we are quick to blame a person's ethnic/religious beliefs whenever they do something that we consider not ethical - ie today tonights 'exposure' of a muslim man with 2 wives both of whom receive parenting benefits. Gosh, that is exactly what occurs in defacto relationships everyday - religion was irrelevant

 

[bullmarket]

Hi wayneL

no problem

:iagree: - let's agree to disagree on the semantics of multiculturism and multiracialism as essentially it apprears we are on a similar wavelength regarding adaptation.

Just finally, I'm also not convinced the race/culture (call it what you like) problem is as severe here in Australia at least as some seem to think it is.

Sure every major city and regional area in Australia will have its problems and issues but for me it was very encouraging that the attempts of those in NSW who tried to incite more violence in other parts of Australia (through text messages) after the Cronulla riots fell on deaf ears and were treated with the contempt they deserved

Here in Melbourne, although we have issues and problems they are not as deep rooted as those in NSW. If you believe the media, the problems at Cronulla have been brewing for years now and eventually spilled over as we all saw. To me Melbourne as a whole seems to be much more culture/race tolerant/accepting than at least Sydney imo for whatever reason. I'm sure this fact contributed to Melbourne being voted as the most liveable city for the second year in a row back in Feb 2004 by the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU)

cheers

bullmarket

 

[bunyip]

But on the same note, no-one is under any obligation whatsoever to just blindly believe any unsubstantiated claims that people make - especially on chat sites.

Bullmarket

You statement above is fair and reasonable......I agree that there's no obligation whatever to believe anything you read on a chat forum - or anywhere else for that matter. And as I've clearly stated, whether I'm believed or disbelieved is of no concern to me.

I have nothing against foreigners - (in fact I married one) - PROVIDING they genuinely try to fit in with the Australian way of life, adopt our culture etc, and show some appreciaton for the wonderful opportunity we've offered them by allowing them into our country.
But when they reject us, our culture, our way of life, our values, and just carry on as if they were still in their country of birth, when they try to change US to fit in with THEM.....that's when the problems start.
If I chose to go and live in a foreign country I'd do everything possible to become one of them. I'd join their community organisations, learn their language, adopt their customs, their dress, their lifestyle, their religion. Whatever it took, I'd do it. And if I wasn't willing to do it, then I wouldn't go to live in that country in the first place.
If the same policy was adopted by every immigrant to Australia, there wouldn't be any problems.

Bunyip

 

[Bobby]

Sweden & Norway must be re-thinking there immigration policy as two out of three prosecutions for rape are non-western immigrants.

This is a sicko comment by Egyptian scholar sheik yusaf al-qaradawi who claimed female rape victims Should be punished if they were dressed immodestly when raped !.
He then said : for her to be absolved from guilt, a raped woman must show good conduct.

Makes you think about who we let in ??.

Bob.

 

[Happy]

But if you go to another country and you have problems or agenda you do other things than trying to fit.

Imho.

 

[Bobby]

But if you go to another country and you have problems or agenda you do other things than trying to fit.

Imho.

Yes Happy,
Got to Agree with that !.
So many do have agenda problems !.

Bob.

 

[sbas]

Sweden & Norway must be re-thinking there immigration policy as two out of three prosecutions for rape are non-western immigrants.

This is a sicko comment by Egyptian scholar sheik yusaf al-qaradawi who claimed female rape victims Should be punished if they were dressed immodestly when raped !.
He then said : for her to be absolved from guilt, a raped woman must show good conduct.

Makes you think about who we let in ??.

Bob.

Would you like to back that statement? This scholar is considered a moderate (therefore orthodox) amongst certain western circles as well, so you're quote needs to be verified.

Also, if anyone wants fair criminal statistics in NSW, Don Weatherburn, Director of the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research many times refutes over-generalisations and stereotypes.

I remember the days of the Asian Invasion... ha ha ha ridiculous now isn't it?

 

[Rafa]

ah... freedom of speech...
what a marvelous freedom this is...

- it can be used by the egyptian sheik to condemn the clothes worn by western women,
- and we can use freedom of speech to condemn him,

- it can be used by acadeamics to teach that asians should be banned from australia cause they are too clever for us, and that africans are only suitable as slaves,
- and we can use freedom of speech to say he is entitled to say that...

whose right, whose wrong... who knows, who cares...
all I know is that free speech is being abused by most people now to air extremist views...

we have all these freedoms, i don't think many in positions of power are using it responsibly...

 

[Bobby]

Would you like to back that statement? This scholar is considered a moderate (therefore orthodox) amongst certain western circles as well, so you're quote needs to be verified.

Also, if anyone wants fair criminal statistics in NSW, Don Weatherburn, Director of the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research many times refutes over-generalisations and stereotypes.

I remember the days of the Asian Invasion... ha ha ha ridiculous now isn't it?

Hullo sbas,
Welcome to the ASF.

Now lets look at Sheik Dr yusuf al-qaradawi.
Well the good Dr was once considered a moderate back in 2001, but since that he has got banned from the U.S., Why"--?.
Did you know he now supports palistinian suicide bombers , also female genital mutilation (female circumcision ), killing of U.S. civilians in Iraq.

As this is a stock forum I must mention the fact, that the Sheik is a Major shareholder in the Bahamas based Al Taqwa Bank !.
This bank did finance & facilitate the activities of terrorists" including Hamas & Al-Qaeda .

All the above information is freely avaliable on the net ( go search ).

Bob.

 

[Bobby]

Rafa:

Thank you. Your remarks re the Sudanese are what I was going to comment on. They are very different people and should be viewed accordingly. I endorse absolutely your comments here.

Re the Professor at Macquarie: He made several very appropriate comments re racism/multiculturalism, but then rather spoiled it, as I recall, with the sort of qualifying remarks which Rafa has quoted. The university vice-chancellor did, however, rather over-react imo. So much for free speech! I believe he had the right to say what he did and we can choose to agree with all or some of it.


bullmarket:

Bunyip related a couple of anecdotes supporting his views about multiculturalism. Why should he be required to provide "verifiable information "to support these anecdotes. If I make a post which describes that I fell out of a tree today are you going to ask me to provide "verifiable support" that I am in fact making a true statement? Aren't you being rather precious here? Why would anyone contributing to this thread make any comment or relate any anecdote if it were not true, for heavens' sake?
Bunyip relates the incident which occurred at his daughter's school.
What sort of "verifiable support" do you expect him to provide in this regard?

You have stated your support for multiculturalism?

Why, then, are you not happy to commit that support in the form of answers to Bunyip's questions which are indeed clear and something we could all do well to think about.

Incidentally, if you were so involved in the spreadsheet, why would you have interrupted such engrossing activity to even check in and read the thread in the first place?


Snake:

You have been living in Japan for some while now as I understand it.
You are therefore in a position to comment on this topic from the opposite point of view. Could you comment on what changes you feel you have had to make to your personality (as it appears publicly), and your general attitudes, to enable you to live in Japan in such a way that makes your presence acceptable to the Japanese people who, after all, are a very different culture from ourselves.


Just two other comments on this thread. I have a friend who spent a few years nursing in Saudi Arabia. She was obliged to adhere to their standards of dress (fully covered up) much as she disliked it. Why should the same not apply when people from other cultures wish to live here?

The prolific breeding of some immigrants has been mentioned. That is all well and good if they are going to make a contribution to our culture and our economy. It is a very different matter if they purely exist on the support of our (taxpayer funded) social welfare system. I'm not sure how many know of the actual benefits payable in this sort of situation. As an example, today I was asked to do an assessment of a family seeking payment of overdue electricity, phone and rent payments. There was the husband on a Disability Support Pension, Wife on Parenting Payment and four dependent children.
They receive almost $1000 per week. Not a hell of a lot of incentive to look for a job, is there.

Julia

Hullo Julia,
Your post was so pertinent that it must mentioned again.

Bullmarket you still have not answered Julias questions. Your credibility as a prolific poster is questioned by your non reciprocal response to such .
Now I'm being nice to you mate, you do need to respond to posts.

That family of immigrants who get $1000 a week on welfare! sure would like to know more !

Bob.