How would you handle this?

[Whiskers]

Bingo....I'm with whiskers on this one.

Also, most tradesmen that do any electrical work on domestic propperties, have to hold the appropriate qualifications, & also usually are a member of the ETU.

I know the ETU looks after its members, but they also don't tolerate 'shonks' very easily iether.
If this person wasn't an ETU member, then ask them [union] about this person, & what procedures should've been adheared too...If he did something wrong [yes] then the ETU boy's could make his life hell, in regards to 'shonky' workmanship.

Vicki

I'm not too familiar with the workings of pools or the qualifications trades people need to work on them, but yes, it would seem that a Qld BSA number and Part 51A Swimming pool construction, installation and maintenance licence is required and should be quoted on the Invoice http://www.bsa.qld.gov.au/BuildersContractors/LicensingInformation/Pages/WhenisaLicenceRequired.aspx and the legislation link http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/Q/QldBuildSerR03.pdf#page=22)

I'm not a lawyer so check like phoning the BSA first to see if this business ought to be licenced under the BSA. If so, and if not shown on invoice then certainly include that in the letter of demand to withdraw their invoice.

The BSA has a complaints link on their web page and would investigate fairly quickly and put some restrictions on their licence or cancell outright for a period or permenantly if serious enough. If there are licence or work standard issues, get that addressed at the BSA first, then proceed to the Small Claims Court to recover money, eg void the invoice, if necessary.

I agree with Whiskers too, Julia.

When I first read your post, the issue of unlawful entry crossed my mind. Whiskers certainly has a way with words...

Maybe also include your concern with flooding as you stated in your post in case you choose to go further, it shows that they were also somewhat negligent with the forecast heavy rains and potential flooding to the house with their unauthorised removal of your chlorinator:



What do you think, Whiskers?

Yes, certainly it's good to highlight forseeable damage that had a high probability of happening.

The key to this type of letter is that when the other party has demonstrated some bad faith, and you feel you are not being dealt with reasonably then you need to get your information organised, workout the legal status and consider the best remedy for you... then drive it home hard. State the undisputable facts, law and deadlines concisely with clear demands eg, withdraw Invoice for return of timer.

Acting in bad (or good) Faith, Reasonableness and Mitigation (of losses, circumstances etc) are three principles that a court consider heavily when judging a case like this.

I generally find this sort of response works well with 'Overservicing' issues, ie where mechanics, contractors etc who bill you for more work than you asked for and or orthorised and or is reasonably required, as well as for customers who do not pay their accounts as agreed

 

[Wysiwyg]

I would suggest either a backup pumping system (preferably powered by some means other than mains electricity), siphon, drain or some other method since sooner or later you will end up with high rainfall and a pump breakdown and/or blackout. A simple drain or siphon would be my preference over a pump since there's less to go wrong.

Though the pool will fill up, there won't be any excess water flowing from it. The amount of water falling from the sky will still be the only run-off.

 

[Julia]

My sincere thanks to all of you who've been so helpful with your replies. It's really appreciated.

I'm guessing that unless there's a 'by-pass' circuit, then you'll be left with a gap in your plumbing, with chlorinator removed..Happened to a friend of mine.
Vicki

That's exactly right, Vicki.

Another thing to empty your pool throw the vacuum in the pool with kreepy or pole attached,hold hose under water until all air escapes.
Put your hand over the end of the hose tight to stop air entering.
Take the hose to somewhere lower than the pool remove your hand and the water should syphon out.

We did try that at the time but just using an ordinary garden hose. It worked but would have been hopeless in terms of the small quantity of water it removed from the pool. Your suggestion of the much larger hose is good, but there wouldn't have been enough length to take it to a lower level. Many thanks for the suggestion.

Smurf, I agree absolutely that the present arrangement for letting water out of the pool is less than satisfactory. Have asked the pool builder about this but he says an alternative which would see excess water plumbed to automatically drain to street stormwater drains would have had to be done when the pool was built (he didn't build it), and to do it now would involve digging up whole back yard, taking up paving, draining pool etc etc. Just not on.

So from all of your replies there seem to be two approaches. One to assume there has been faulty communication within the firm, and hope the management will be interested in doing the right thing. And two, to assume no such thing and take a more aggressive approach (as per Whiskers' suggestion) from the outset.

Btw re any response to my angry email the night I found the chlorinator removed, I did receive a phone call first thing next morning saying they had taken advantage of an unexpected opportunity to do the job. It was the owner who phoned and she said there was no instruction on the job sheet or the file to phone first. Well, if there wasn't then that's their error because I' ve been emphatic about it every time I've requested anything.

I've decided the next step will be to go into Fair Trading and get their advice about what my rights are in this situation. Will take the 'new' timer device with me.
Will report back any progress.

A further black mark against the pool shop is that with a water test just two weeks prior to this incident they assured me there was plenty of salt in the water.
When the chlorinator failed, i.e. about two weeks later, and the pool builder tested the water, there was ZERO salt and obviously therefore no chlorine, hence the filthy pool. And I'd questioned that I hadn't been advised to add salt on the last two testing occasions. Took six large bags of salt to bring the water up to an acceptable level.
(for anyone reading this who doesn't have salt pool, the chlorinator turns the salt in the water into chlorine, thus cleaning and disinfecting the pool).

Again, thank you all so much for helpful and thoughtful replies. Hugely appreciated.

 

[todster]

I taste my pool water for salt.

 

[todster]

Though the pool will fill up, there won't be any excess water flowing from it. The amount of water falling from the sky will still be the only run-off.

Julia can you explain this?
if you had brickpaving and no pool you still have the same amount of rain?

 

[Julia]

The exact terminology varies between states but if it involves fixed mains electrical wiring then it must be done by a licensed Electrical Technician ("electrician").

The Electrical Technician must also be employed by a licensed Electrical Contractor.

Note that one person can hold both licenses (eg a sole trader who is both the Contractor and the Technician) or they could be separate people (the common arrangement being one Electrical Contractor running a business and employing multiple Electrical Technicians to do the actual work).

Smurf, I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say "fixed mains electrical wiring".
The chlorinator is not hard wired. Is that the same thing? (apologies for my ignorance).

Re the BSA, yes they would require pool builders to be appropriately licensed.
The business with whom I have the argument is a retail pool shop which does water testing and sells equipment, also offers regular pool servicing.
I'd never get them to do anything like installing filter etc which requires some plumbing skills. However, I would be surprised if just disconnecting the chlorinator from the wall and later putting it back required an electrician's licence.

Initially, they suggested I do it myself and just bring it into them.

I've had similar stuff done in the past by a different business, and I'm pretty sure no one employed there would be a qualified electrician.

Though the pool will fill up, there won't be any excess water flowing from it. The amount of water falling from the sky will still be the only run-off.

That's all very well, but when the garden and lawns simply cannot absorb any more water, it will flow down across the patio and into the house.

 

[Logique]

Julia don't flip the switch to legal action too quickly. Is it worth the time and angst.

Exhaust all reasonable avenues with the company. Will they remedy the the situation and supply a genuine part and revised and reasonable invoice within a reasonable time. From your account, it doesn't sound like they run a very tight ship, but this might just be a series of miscommunications. You did ask for work to be done urgently.

Doesn't mean you have to deal with the company ever again, or recommend them to anyone else.

 

[nulla nulla]

I taste my pool water for salt.

Hopefully no-one pee's in it before you test. Could give you a false reading.

 

[todster]

Hopefully no-one pee's in it before you test. Could give you a false reading.

Haha maybe i should read the conductivity meter after a kids party.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Haha maybe i should read the conductivity meter after a kids party.

The P.H. level is the one. Slightly acidic I would suggest.

 

[Smurf1976]

Smurf, I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say "fixed mains electrical wiring".
The chlorinator is not hard wired. Is that the same thing? (apologies for my ignorance).

If it is plugged in then there is no licensing issue for whoever did the work.

"Wired in", "fixed wiring", "hard wired" and other similar terms are all terms which mean the same thing - the "fixed" electrical wiring that can not be disconnected by pulling a plug out.

For example, the cable that runs from the switchboard (sometimes referred to as "meter box") to your power points is an example of "fixed" wiring, as are the power points themselves.

But anything that is simply plugged in to a power point is not "fixed".

The significance of this is that only a properly licensed person can legally work on the "fixed" wiring. But there is no issue if it's a plug-in appliance as the pool chlorinator appears to be.

 

[DB008]

Since you're in Qld (from what I recall), perhaps you have to give the Office of Fair Trading a call for advice on how to proceed? http://www.fairtrading.qld.gov.au/unsolicited-supply.htm

+1

1) Put a complaint in. See how ya go. I've put complaints in over several doggy operators, not expecting any sort of outcome and was pleasantly surprised when they did get back to me.
2) Don't bust yourself up over this one Julia. You'll only give yourself a headache and raise your blood pressure.

 

[Macquack]

That's all very well, but when the garden and lawns simply cannot absorb any more water, it will flow down across the patio and into the house.

I think the problem is with your house, not your pool.

The finished floor level of a house should always be well above the surrounding ground level.

Go easy on the tradies, we don't have airconditioned offices with broadband internet connection and coffee and tea on tap to facilitate returning every ****ing canvas caller wasting our time. I worked out a long time ago, you cannot talk on the phone and work productively at the same time.

 

[Whiskers]

Julia don't flip the switch to legal action too quickly. Is it worth the time and angst.

Exhaust all reasonable avenues with the company. Will they remedy the the situation and supply a genuine part and revised and reasonable invoice within a reasonable time. From your account, it doesn't sound like they run a very tight ship, but this might just be a series of miscommunications. You did ask for work to be done urgently.

Doesn't mean you have to deal with the company ever again, or recommend them to anyone else.

Yeah, I agree legal action should not be the first call... but I gather there was a degree of bad faith or at least disrespectful behaviour by the firm either by the inital person not marking her call back request on the file or someone not noticing or ignoring it... and with the follow up from her initial complaint.

Hence, my position of treating people with lacklustre courtesy, respect and performance like you would an unruly drunk for example... you can't reason with unreasonable people, so you have to sum up the situation and be very assertive, ie precise, clear and definate with them, otherwise things will just continue into a random relatively unpredictable and often delaying game by them.

I feel Julia is certainly at the get very assertative stage, but that doesn't mean getting angry or nasty, on the contrary, assertive calm behaviour is diametrically opposed to their casual, more random and irratic behaviour... in other words it realy gets their attention. It's a mode where better dialogue can occur if they demonstrate good faith and reasonableness in their response. Those are the two main elements of both conflict resolution and any subseqient legal action.

I think Julia has got that part under control and probably just needs some confirmation of her exact legal position and rights for the confidence to carry it off most effectively.

Then if you feel your dialogue is not coming along in good faith and reasonableness, ie if they refuse to communicate, fail to acknowledge some important aspect and or don't propose any reasonable solutions, then legal ation is the next step, BUT...

+1

1) Put a complaint in. See how ya go. I've put complaints in over several doggy operators, not expecting any sort of outcome and was pleasantly surprised when they did get back to me.
2) Don't bust yourself up over this one Julia. You'll only give yourself a headache and raise your blood pressure.

...once you engage the legal process, you ought to start getting more agressive to win, otherwise it could be an expensive exercise to 'just see how you go' with a lacklustre legal case.

I think the problem is with your house, not your pool.

The finished floor level of a house should always be well above the surrounding ground level.

Go easy on the tradies, we don't have airconditioned offices with broadband internet connection and coffee and tea on tap to facilitate returning every ****ing canvas caller wasting our time. I worked out a long time ago, you cannot talk on the phone and work productively at the same time.

Aahh... from a strictly legal position, her house is what it is and no excuse or cause for the tradie or anyone else to presume anything in contradiction to what the property owner wanted without confirmation from the owner.

I think that is a big legal mistake by the business to presume their work program is more important than the courtesy of communicating their timetable to call to their customers before they came to the property, then illegally entering and interfering with the property. Certainly not the atributes of good public relations and well versed managerial and business practices.

I know it's frustrating dealing with people at times, but that's where good business proceedures come into play. I have the same problems with people changing meeting times, orders, running late for pickups or deliveries etc so I make sure to plan ahead by doing just what Julia did, request they notify when coming or if they change plans etc.

It's a simple thing to keep in communication so that alternate or contingency plans can unfold as you go to even out any disruptions. Certainly cheaper in the long run than presuming you know better and or, are more important than your customers legal rights.

 

[Julia]

If it is plugged in then there is no licensing issue for whoever did the work.

"Wired in", "fixed wiring", "hard wired" and other similar terms are all terms which mean the same thing - the "fixed" electrical wiring that can not be disconnected by pulling a plug out.

For example, the cable that runs from the switchboard (sometimes referred to as "meter box") to your power points is an example of "fixed" wiring, as are the power points themselves.

But anything that is simply plugged in to a power point is not "fixed".

The significance of this is that only a properly licensed person can legally work on the "fixed" wiring. But there is no issue if it's a plug-in appliance as the pool chlorinator appears to be.

Yep, that's as I understood it, so thanks, Smurf. No licence required for the pool service person to do what they did.

+1

1) Put a complaint in. See how ya go. I've put complaints in over several doggy operators, not expecting any sort of outcome and was pleasantly surprised when they did get back to me.
2) Don't bust yourself up over this one Julia. You'll only give yourself a headache and raise your blood pressure.

That's actually good advice. I've been finding it difficult to find the right mid point between sticking up for my rights and not being taken advantage of on the one hand, and on the other, of getting stressed over it.

I went into Fair Trading today and learned that they cannot act on behalf of a consumer if said consumer has not actually paid for any article or service. So to get them to take up the case via a written complaint I'd first have to actually pay the nearly $300. I'm not prepared to do this.

The FT person was helpful. Agreed that the timer absolutely did not have a new appearance and she agreed she wouldn't be paying the bill either for all the reasons I have outlined.

She has suggested either going in there with the timer initially - no mention of the a/c - and asking for an estimate of how old the article is. If necessary ask to compare it with a new one still in the box. Then take it from there, suggesting I return the timer and they cancel the invoice, bearing in mind their failure to phone before coming, such failure resulting in the whole crappy chain of events including exposing me to possible flooding of the house.

I've pretty much decided to do something along these lines but if it becomes unpleasant I will just say I won't be paying the bill and will be referring the matter to the Justice Dept Dispute Resolution centre. This seems an easier step than going to the Magistrates' Court, less confrontational and stressful, and they usually achieve positive outcomes.

If we get to that stage and they refuse to participate, then I will be neither paying the bill nor returning the timer.

 

[Julia]

I think the problem is with your house, not your pool.

The finished floor level of a house should always be well above the surrounding ground level.

There is no problem with the house. The floor level is indeed significantly above the surrounding ground level.
You do not seem to appreciate the amount of rain that has fallen in Qld in the last couple of weeks. It is now up to about 30 inches here. The lawns and garden simply cannot absorb any more. If the pool were to overflow significantly there would be nowhere for the water to go. Try looking at a few photos of the floods in Queensland.

Go easy on the tradies, we don't have airconditioned offices with broadband internet connection and coffee and tea on tap to facilitate returning every ****ing canvas caller wasting our time. I worked out a long time ago, you cannot talk on the phone and work productively at the same time.

What on earth has that got to do with doing the job they are being paid for?
That includes adhering to instructions to phone before making a call.

Go easy on the tradies??? give me a break!

 

[Tysonboss1]

I'd appreciate comments from members about the following situation.

A week before Christmas the timer on the pool chlorinator stopped working. Phoned pool shop to ask them to replace it. Was told they were flat out and there was no way they could do it until after the New Year. OK, no problem: can turn everything on and off manually in the meantime. Reiterated my standing instruction that they must phone before coming. (Dog would not let them in if I'm not here, and I also wanted to check prices for new chlorinator given this one is pretty old.) Yes, he said, they would definitely phone first.

Meantime, I'd pretty much decided to just get a new chlorinator, timer included, but didn't do anything about this immediately, believing they'd phone before coming and I could enquire re comparative costs of various models.

Just after Christmas I arrived home (dog was with me) just after 5pm to find chlorinator had been removed. This rendered the whole system unable to function and there was a forecast of 200 mls of rain that night. I have no way to let water out of the pool if this eventuates. There is no after hours number for the pool shop.
I'm anxious and very annoyed.

Get help to place plastic and bags of salt and potting mix against doors in case pool overflows.

Send email expressing my dismay that they failed to phone first and they returned it next morning. No apology or acknowledgement of failure to phone or for leaving me with no capacity to let water out.

Three days later the chlorinator died. All pool shops closed. Managed to get the pool builder to put in new chlorinator. Asked him to pull out the new timer before dumping old chlorinator. He did so, and snorted when he looked at it, saying it was absolutely not new, just newer than the failed one!

At that stage I hadn't received the bill but this arrived a couple of days later.
Cost of 'new' timer $181, plus $70 for service call and $40 for labour.

Checking on the net, this model of timer is available for under $100. That's probably not specially relevant given we know buying from a store is going to be more.

But I am really irritated about them putting in a second hand item and charging me well and truly new price.

The pool builder won't lend his name to his advice that it's used rather than new, because they send quite a bit of work his way, and I understand that.

My feeling is that (1) if they had adhered to standing instruction and phoned first, I wouldn't have had the timer replaced, so none of the bill would have eventuated, and (2) I'm damned if I'm prepared to pay an inflated price for a non-new item.

I'd expect the usual paperwork/guarantee with the device but obviously nothing has been supplied.

Would be most appreciative of any suggestions re how to best handle this.

Obviously, the amount of money isn't huge, but I just really hate being ripped off.

As a business owner myself, In a non related but similar type of business serving in excess of 60 customers / day. I can easily see where errors of comunication between staff can lead to un happy customers.

The is also the 1 in 1000 custmers whose products becomes faulty in some way (it's just the way it is). So I know that at least a few times a month there will be a customer with a genuine complaint that I have to deal with.

I love nothing more than these customers bringing these issues up with me and giving me a chance to rectify the situation. So just contact the owner / manager and just rationally explain what has happened and tell him that you would like him to fix it asap.

As much of a customer service guy as I am, I can't stand it when customers work them selves up so much before approaching me that they barge in all upset accusing me of ripping them off, demading refunds, telling me they are taking me to consumer affairs, ranting and raving, etc etc.

Just rationally explain your case and it will be fixed.

 

[Julia]

Thank you, Tyson. You're obviously the ideal business owner.

 

[Julia]

I'm happy to report a completely positive outcome from going into the pool shop today.
Just outlined the situation step by step and said I'd appreciate being able to return the timer.

No problem. Amount of $181 credited. That left the service charge and labour charge, total of just under $100. I said neither would have been incurred had they adhered to standing and repeated instruction to phone before coming. The owner admitted they were at fault and these charges were also waived.

So, Tyson, you are quite right. We need to give the business the chance to put it right before going the legal way.

In doing what they have done, and handling it pleasantly, everyone wins. I won't be bad mouthing their business and they retain a customer.

My sincere thanks to all of you who were good enough to make suggestions.

 

[sails]

Excellent result, Julia...