How would you handle this?

Julia · 9 January 2011

I'd appreciate comments from members about the following situation.

A week before Christmas the timer on the pool chlorinator stopped working. Phoned pool shop to ask them to replace it. Was told they were flat out and there was no way they could do it until after the New Year. OK, no problem: can turn everything on and off manually in the meantime. Reiterated my standing instruction that they must phone before coming. (Dog would not let them in if I'm not here, and I also wanted to check prices for new chlorinator given this one is pretty old.) Yes, he said, they would definitely phone first.

Meantime, I'd pretty much decided to just get a new chlorinator, timer included, but didn't do anything about this immediately, believing they'd phone before coming and I could enquire re comparative costs of various models.

Just after Christmas I arrived home (dog was with me) just after 5pm to find chlorinator had been removed. This rendered the whole system unable to function and there was a forecast of 200 mls of rain that night. I have no way to let water out of the pool if this eventuates. There is no after hours number for the pool shop.
I'm anxious and very annoyed.

Get help to place plastic and bags of salt and potting mix against doors in case pool overflows.

Send email expressing my dismay that they failed to phone first and they returned it next morning. No apology or acknowledgement of failure to phone or for leaving me with no capacity to let water out.

Three days later the chlorinator died. All pool shops closed. Managed to get the pool builder to put in new chlorinator. Asked him to pull out the new timer before dumping old chlorinator. He did so, and snorted when he looked at it, saying it was absolutely not new, just newer than the failed one!

At that stage I hadn't received the bill but this arrived a couple of days later.
Cost of 'new' timer $181, plus $70 for service call and $40 for labour.

Checking on the net, this model of timer is available for under $100. That's probably not specially relevant given we know buying from a store is going to be more.

But I am really irritated about them putting in a second hand item and charging me well and truly new price.

The pool builder won't lend his name to his advice that it's used rather than new, because they send quite a bit of work his way, and I understand that.

My feeling is that (1) if they had adhered to standing instruction and phoned first, I wouldn't have had the timer replaced, so none of the bill would have eventuated, and (2) I'm damned if I'm prepared to pay an inflated price for a non-new item.

I'd expect the usual paperwork/guarantee with the device but obviously nothing has been supplied.

Would be most appreciative of any suggestions re how to best handle this.

Obviously, the amount of money isn't huge, but I just really hate being ripped off.

pixel · 9 January 2011

G'Day Julia;

ain't that just so "new costomer service"-like! Welcome to the 21st Century

If you kept the "newer" chlorinator, you can put it as evidence, together with the rip-off invoice, and submit a complaint to the small claims tribunal.
I did something similar when shoddy workmanship was discovered - in my case it was months after something had been replaced and incorrectly installed.

It always depends on the State, but you should have a pretty good case in any jurisdiction.
Pity is, it'll cost your time and angst to pursue the matter, and all you'll get is your money back. But if you're p1$$ed-off enough, you may just do it for the principle.
You could also call Today Tonight or some similar TV show to name and shame that shonky mob.

starwars_guy456 · 9 January 2011

Hi Julia

At the best case scenario, there's been clearly a bit of a mixup there at the pool shop between the manager and the staff member sent out to replace your equipment. At the worst case scenario, the pool shop is trying to pull a fast one on you.

As a starting point, are you able to speak to the owner/manager of the pool shop to tell him that this wasn't welcome, and you'll be likely to give the Office of Fair trading a call if this isn't resolved to your satisfaction.

I used to live in Victoria, we've got something called Consumer affairs Victoria for complaints and the like for these things.

Since you're in Qld (from what I recall), perhaps you have to give the Office of Fair Trading a call for advice on how to proceed? http://www.fairtrading.qld.gov.au/unsolicited-supply.htm

Hopefully you can write down a quick chronological summary of events that you've just described, so you can explain it all again when the call centre operator at the Office of Fair trading asks you to clarify. If I were you I'd make sure I get evidence of any further written correspondence between you and the pool shop.

Chances are you might be looking for another pool shop soon!

-Ed

lindsayf · 9 January 2011

Hi Julia
I'd put it in an assertively written letter addressed to the manager of the company. In the letter I would say that I will ring to discuss it in 2 weeks time and then definitely do so regardless of whether you receive a response or not. (Do you still have the alleged second hand filter unit? Not sure if I would mention this in the letter) If I were manager I would want to know about poor work practices of my staff and how this has caused inconvenience and risk to my clients. You may get some satisfaction. If the manager doesnt give you any satisfaction either waiving bills or apologizing ( or other) then see if there is a formal company grievance procedure that you can use.

Otherwise...probably not worth your time pursuing it any further really..seek out service form their competitors

Lindsay

ghotib · 9 January 2011

Grrrr!!!

How would you feel about taking the invoice and the timer to the store and telling them, in the nicest possible way, to keep them both? Make an appointment with the store owner (or manager - the person with authority to cancel the invoice) before you go in so you don't get trapped with someone at a front desk. And take the dog with you if you're uncomfortable.

I think it's quite reasonable to expect them to cancel the whole transaction. I also think the mixup might be to do with a technician trying to do the right thing by getting work done before Christmas - though that doesn't explain the cost of the timer. You'll probably get a feel for what's going on when you talk to them. Whatever happens, if you're paying for a new timer you're entitled to see it come out of the box.

Cheers,

Ghoti (never owned a pool and probably never will)

noco · 9 January 2011

Julia, to the best of my knowledge, these pool builders have to have a QBSA Lic No.(Queensland Builders Service Authority) to operate their business. Might be worth a long shot to contact them. There may be one in your district or the nearest major town or you could phone Brisbane 1300 272 272 7am to 5pm Mon - Fri.
Their website is www.bsa.qld.gov.au
Hope this helps.

Whiskers · 9 January 2011

Julia said:
Send email expressing my dismay that they failed to phone first and they returned it next morning. No apology or acknowledgement of failure to phone or for leaving me with no capacity to let water out.

I don't quite understand... did they send a reply to you, ie any comminication at all, or just replied a blank email?

Three days later the chlorinator died. All pool shops closed. Managed to get the pool builder to put in new chlorinator. Asked him to pull out the new timer before dumping old chlorinator. He did so, and snorted when he looked at it, saying it was absolutely not new, just newer than the failed one!

At that stage I hadn't received the bill but this arrived a couple of days later.
Cost of 'new' timer $181, plus $70 for service call and $40 for labour.

Don't pay the Invoive. Write or email the repairer;

You did not supply me with any User Instructions and Warranty information that should have come with the new timer. I have since learnt that the timer is NOT new as you say on your Invoice.

I am desirous of you to acknowledge that you will withdraw the Invoice upon return of the timer because you didn't phone back as I specifically required you to do (and you are required in law to do) before making your house call, and the timer you installed is certainly NOT new.

I require your responce within a week. If you don't reply within one week, I will be filing a complaint for unlawful entry and interference with property and fraud, to rescind your invoice and recover any other costs or damages that may be determined in the meantime to be consequential of your 'work' and unlawful entry to my property.

That should get a response!

In the meantime put the 'new' timer aside somewhere safe and secure... because if this dude comes unannounced once he may do it again to recover the disputed part if he thinks it will be evidence of fraud in a court.

Then double check to see if the workmanship looks professional and whether he moved anything else on the pool or else where on your property and what effect that had.

IB12 · 9 January 2011

For small ticket items, I would just take the pain and move on and learn your lesson.
That is, don't deal with the same service provider. Or learn how to install it yourself if you don't want to pay next time.
This is the same reason why plumbers get paid so much, b/c most people couldn't be stuffed figuring out how to do things, and they keep themselves unknowledgeable about how to fix plumbing issues in the house. Either that or they don't have the time.
But a bad service provider is a bad service provider and now you've expended more time and money than originally intended. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
And while you're at it, think about whether you want a pool in your backyard b/c of all the time and costs of maintaining it.
That's why we have public pools, so they can maintain it and spend time on it, whilst we enjoy it by paying our fee for entry.

Vicki · 9 January 2011

Don't pay the Invoive. Write or email the repairer;

You did not supply me with any User Instructions and Warranty information that should have come with the new timer. I have since learnt that the timer is NOT new as you say on your Invoice.

I am desirous of you to acknowledge that you will withdraw the Invoice upon return of the timer because you didn't phone back as I specifically required you to do (and you are required in law to do) before making your house call, and the timer you installed is certainly NOT new.

I require your responce within a week. If you don't reply within one week, I will be filing a complaint for unlawful entry and interference with property and fraud, to rescind your invoice and recover any other costs or damages that may be determined in the meantime to be consequential of your 'work' and unlawful entry to my property.

Bingo....I'm with whiskers on this one.

Also, most tradesmen that do any electrical work on domestic propperties, have to hold the appropriate qualifications, & also usually are a member of the ETU.

I know the ETU looks after its members, but they also don't tolerate 'shonks' very easily iether.
If this person wasn't an ETU member, then ask them [union] about this person, & what procedures should've been adheared too...If he did something wrong [yes] then the ETU boy's could make his life hell, in regards to 'shonky' workmanship.

Vicki

sails · 9 January 2011

I agree with Whiskers too, Julia.

When I first read your post, the issue of unlawful entry crossed my mind. Whiskers certainly has a way with words...

Maybe also include your concern with flooding as you stated in your post in case you choose to go further, it shows that they were also somewhat negligent with the forecast heavy rains and potential flooding to the house with their unauthorised removal of your chlorinator:

Julia said:
...Just after Christmas I arrived home (dog was with me) just after 5pm to find chlorinator had been removed. This rendered the whole system unable to function and there was a forecast of 200 mls of rain that night. I have no way to let water out of the pool if this eventuates. There is no after hours number for the pool shop.
I'm anxious and very annoyed.

Get help to place plastic and bags of salt and potting mix against doors in case pool overflows. ..

What do you think, Whiskers?

todster · 9 January 2011

Hi Julia interested to know why you cant run the pump with no chlorinator?

Vicki · 9 January 2011

todster said:
Hi Julia interested to know why you cant run the pump with no chlorinator?

I'm guessing that unless there's a 'by-pass' circuit, then you'll be left with a gap in your plumbing, with chlorinator removed..Happened to a friend of mine.

Vicki

todster · 9 January 2011

Vicki said:
I'm guessing that unless there's a 'by-pass' circuit, then you'll be left with a gap in your plumbing, with chlorinator removed..Happened to a friend of mine.

Vicki

As in they took the cell with the box to fix the timer?
Would of thought they would disconnect the cell
Anyway if you have a new chlorinator keep the old cell for this reason.

todster · 9 January 2011

Another thing to empty your pool throw the vacuum in the pool with kreepy or pole attached,hold hose under water until all air escapes.
Put your hand over the end of the hose tight to stop air entering.
Take the hose to somewhere lower than the pool remove your hand and the water should syphon out.

GumbyLearner · 9 January 2011

Julia said:
I'd appreciate comments from members about the following situation.

A week before Christmas the timer on the pool chlorinator stopped working. Phoned pool shop to ask them to replace it. Was told they were flat out and there was no way they could do it until after the New Year. OK, no problem: can turn everything on and off manually in the meantime. Reiterated my standing instruction that they must phone before coming. (Dog would not let them in if I'm not here, and I also wanted to check prices for new chlorinator given this one is pretty old.) Yes, he said, they would definitely phone first.

Meantime, I'd pretty much decided to just get a new chlorinator, timer included, but didn't do anything about this immediately, believing they'd phone before coming and I could enquire re comparative costs of various models.

Just after Christmas I arrived home (dog was with me) just after 5pm to find chlorinator had been removed. This rendered the whole system unable to function and there was a forecast of 200 mls of rain that night. I have no way to let water out of the pool if this eventuates. There is no after hours number for the pool shop.
I'm anxious and very annoyed.

Get help to place plastic and bags of salt and potting mix against doors in case pool overflows.

Send email expressing my dismay that they failed to phone first and they returned it next morning. No apology or acknowledgement of failure to phone or for leaving me with no capacity to let water out.

Three days later the chlorinator died. All pool shops closed. Managed to get the pool builder to put in new chlorinator. Asked him to pull out the new timer before dumping old chlorinator. He did so, and snorted when he looked at it, saying it was absolutely not new, just newer than the failed one!

At that stage I hadn't received the bill but this arrived a couple of days later.
Cost of 'new' timer $181, plus $70 for service call and $40 for labour.

Checking on the net, this model of timer is available for under $100. That's probably not specially relevant given we know buying from a store is going to be more.

But I am really irritated about them putting in a second hand item and charging me well and truly new price.

The pool builder won't lend his name to his advice that it's used rather than new, because they send quite a bit of work his way, and I understand that.

My feeling is that (1) if they had adhered to standing instruction and phoned first, I wouldn't have had the timer replaced, so none of the bill would have eventuated, and (2) I'm damned if I'm prepared to pay an inflated price for a non-new item.

I'd expect the usual paperwork/guarantee with the device but obviously nothing has been supplied.

Would be most appreciative of any suggestions re how to best handle this.

Obviously, the amount of money isn't huge, but I just really hate being ripped off.

If you can't reach a settlement and you have the time. You should go to the Magistrates Court (Small Claims Division).

No lawyers allowed. Make sure you have documented every communication. It's your word vs. theirs.

nioka · 9 January 2011

GumbyLearner said:
If you can't reach a settlement and you have the time. You should go to the Magistrates Court (Small Claims Division).

No lawyers allowed. Make sure you have documented every communication. It's your word vs. theirs.

Best advice to date. First though ring the business and ask to speak to the owner. He may fix the problem to your satisfaction if the work was the fault of an employee. If not then suggest that you will take the matter to the magistrates court. Businessmen dont like to have to spend half a day in court over these things and usually will settle. If not the magistrate will give you a fair hearing.

Best of luck. keep posting progress.

Smurf1976 · 9 January 2011

Issues with shonky tradesmen aside, I really don't like the idea that you need to be able to run the pump in order to prevent a flood should it rain heavily.

I am not familiar with the relevant Australian Standards in regard to pools and the management of rain, but such an arrangement seems to be asking for trouble. You can't stop the rain, and you can't guarantee that you won't have a component of the pumping system fail (or a power failure). Now, if an overflow is going to cause any sort of damage to the pool, house or anything else of significance then I would not want to have such an arrangement.

I would suggest either a backup pumping system (preferably powered by some means other than mains electricity), siphon, drain or some other method since sooner or later you will end up with high rainfall and a pump breakdown and/or blackout. A simple drain or siphon would be my preference over a pump since there's less to go wrong.

Obviously that doesn't matter if the pool water will simply drain away with no harm done. But that's not the impression I get from the original post.

As for how to resolve the situation - if they won't resolve it of their own accord then take them to the small claims court as other have said. No lawyers involved, very little cost (check locally, not sure what the situation is in Qld) and it's not as difficult as it sounds.

todster · 9 January 2011

IB12 said:
For small ticket items, I would just take the pain and move on and learn your lesson.
That is, don't deal with the same service provider. Or learn how to install it yourself if you don't want to pay next time.
This is the same reason why plumbers get paid so much, b/c most people couldn't be stuffed figuring out how to do things, and they keep themselves unknowledgeable about how to fix plumbing issues in the house. Either that or they don't have the time.
But a bad service provider is a bad service provider and now you've expended more time and money than originally intended. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
And while you're at it, think about whether you want a pool in your backyard b/c of all the time and costs of maintaining it.
That's why we have public pools, so they can maintain it and spend time on it, whilst we enjoy it by paying our fee for entry.

If connected to the ministers water supply DIY plumbing is illegal in WA.
That includes tap washers.

Smurf1976 · 9 January 2011

Vicki said:
Also, most tradesmen that do any electrical work on domestic propperties, have to hold the appropriate qualifications, & also usually are a member of the ETU.

The exact terminology varies between states but if it involves fixed mains electrical wiring then it must be done by a licensed Electrical Technician ("electrician").

The Electrical Technician must also be employed by a licensed Electrical Contractor.

Note that one person can hold both licenses (eg a sole trader who is both the Contractor and the Technician) or they could be separate people (the common arrangement being one Electrical Contractor running a business and employing multiple Electrical Technicians to do the actual work).

Smurf1976 · 9 January 2011

todster said:
If connected to the ministers water supply DIY plumbing is illegal in WA.
That includes tap washers.

Though I dare say that plenty of people have changed their own tap washers in WA...

In relation to electrical work, I'd say that somewhere around half of all homes have some "obvious" DIY electrical work. It's not always dangerous (though sometimes it certainly is), but you can usually spot it pretty easily.

How would you handle this?

Julia

In Memoriam

pixel

DIY Trader

starwars_guy456

lindsayf

ghotib

THIMKER

noco

Whiskers

It's a small world

IB12

Vicki

sails

todster

Vicki

todster

todster

GumbyLearner

nioka

Smurf1976

todster

Smurf1976

Smurf1976

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