How do YOU measure success/failure in life?

[Julia]

Most people without money think the measure of success is having money. I don't know many people with money who measure their life by their bank balance.

No, because they don't have to. When you're poor, the bank balance is a whole lot more important.

As Rene Rivkin used to say, "money doesn't buy happiness, it just buys a better form of unhappiness".

This is a popular saying, but in fact without enough money imo it's not possible to be happy. If you can't pay your electricity bill, can't choose to eat good food, can't join in social activities and have no immediate prospect of improving your situation because of entrenched disadvantage, illness, age etc, I don't know how you can be 'happy'.

All the people who claim money doesn't matter are those who have enough.

The obvious rider to this is to avoid the obsession with making more and more money after that 'enough' has been achieved.

I'm not sure about what constitutes success or failure but for me a large part of feeling OK is self acceptance, rather than an endless quest for achievement and improvement. Having been very success driven once, I had to learn that just being OK is more conducive to contentment than competitive striving.

When we're finding our way in the world, I think it matters to most of us to be liked. Growing up can mean replacing approval seeking behaviour with the capacity to discern who to avoid. I don't fight negative stressors, whether people or situations any more, and instead just walk away.

 

[McLovin]

This is a popular saying, but in fact without enough money imo it's not possible to be happy. If you can't pay your electricity bill, can't choose to eat good food, can't join in social activities and have no immediate prospect of improving your situation because of entrenched disadvantage, illness, age etc, I don't know how you can be 'happy'.

Of course you're right. But in the context of the OP, I would have thought we were discussing the difference between being wealthy and being middle of the road wealth wise. It takes a surprisingly small amount of money for someone to max out the happiness they derive from money.

But the irony is that earning additional income will actually not lead to extra happiness, once you have already attained a “comfortable standard” where you have what you need to function and be content. The “comfortable standard” can be quite variable based on the city, state or country you live in. Here in the US, according to Dunn and Norton, the standard falls around $75,000. Researchers at Princeton examined Gallup poll data from nearly 500,000 US households and found that higher family incomes were related to better moods on a day to day basis. However, the positive effects of money had no effect on people’s happiness and moods after a level of $ 75,000.00 was attained.

The issue then arises why we work so hard after we have reached an income level that is able to make us happy. Beyond a strong work ethic engrained by family values, or the desire to excel and compete with others, it appears that our ideas about money and happiness have gone awry. Dunn and Norton explain that based on their research with a national sample of Americans, the thought that life would be happier with double their salary (from 25K to 55K) did not translate into any measurable happiness. (Twice the money did not lead to twice the happiness). But according to Dunn and Norton’s data, people who earned 55K were only 9 percent more content than those making $25,000.00. 9 percent happier may be difficult to quantify, and better than 0 percent, but not the 100 percent you may be expecting from the extra income.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertglatter/2012/07/27/how-much-money-do-you-need-to-be-happy-2/

I'm not sure about what constitutes success or failure but for me a large part of feeling OK is self acceptance, rather than an endless quest for achievement and improvement. Having been very success driven once, I had to learn that just being OK is more conducive to contentment than competitive striving.

When we're finding our way in the world, I think it matters to most of us to be liked. Growing up can mean replacing approval seeking behaviour with the capacity to discern who to avoid. I don't fight negative stressors, whether people or situations any more, and instead just walk away.

That seems like a pretty good approach to life, IMO. The things I put at the top are friends, family and health.

 

[galumay]

This is a popular saying, but in fact without enough money imo it's not possible to be happy.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with that statement absolutely. Money has absolutely nothing to do with happiness, in fact happiness or sadness is how we CHOOSE to respond to our environment, its not an outcome of an input.

I first learnt this important lesson when I started travelling a lot in 3rd world countries and I was struck by the reality that most people were happier there than in my own wealthy 1st world country.

One of the greatest sources of unhappiness in our culture is the belief that more money, a bigger house, a new girlfriend, sports car, boob job etc will make us more happy.

My epiphany came when someone told me, "Happiness is not a destination, its a way of travelling, so hop up and get on the train!"

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with that statement absolutely. Money has absolutely nothing to do with happiness, in fact happiness or sadness is how we CHOOSE to respond to our environment, its not an outcome of an input.

I first learnt this important lesson when I started travelling a lot in 3rd world countries and I was struck by the reality that most people were happier there than in my own wealthy 1st world country.

One of the greatest sources of unhappiness in our culture is the belief that more money, a bigger house, a new girlfriend, sports car, boob job etc will make us more happy.

My epiphany came when someone told me, "Happiness is not a destination, its a way of travelling, so hop up and get on the train!"

Some of those happy people in 3rd world countries have very strong family and extended family networks. So it's not so much that they say "I choose to be happy", but they derive their happiness from lots of interaction within this mutual support network. When they come to Australia have you noticed that they have very large numbers to each household, and they are always talking about their cousins/aunties/uncles? If you were to isolate an individual from such a large and tight group, you'd find that he would become depressed very quickly unless there was some other stimulus (money, power, prestige, achievement) to sustain that happiness. Strong family ties is definitely a better way of creating happiness than M,P,P,A, but it's still a caused happiness. If you think that's a good thing, so do I.

But there's another thing that's occurring to these "happy 3rd world people", and that is that they are starting to see opportunity for advancement. For generations, the idea of advancement was totally unknown - you simply accepted your place. The opportunity to *have more* creates very strong desires when it's a new concept, just look at a two year old as his ego develops. Chinese farmers were once a simple happy people (except when Mao was starving them to death of course); now they see opportunity, they move to the cities and they very quickly adopt the dog eat dog mentality (no pun intended). The newly urbanized Chinese are some of the most ruthless businessmen around. Exploitation and cheating is rampant - this is what I've heard from someone who does business there. I guess the same is true for many of these developing nations.

There's yet one more potential reason why many of these 3rd world people are happy, and that is that they have a belief that poverty is somehow holy and 'good'. They believe they are creating good karma by suffering. So you see this whole picture is not nearly as nice as you think. The only thing we can learn from them is that relationships are quite a good way of sustaining happiness - that's all. Relationships are an external cause - don't misunderstand that. However, when compared with the amazing jolt of happiness that M,P,P,A gives you, most would choose the latter if given half a chance. Such things are extremely addictive. Many Chinese are turning to Christianity because it's a bit more accepting of "worldly desire" than Buddhism. They feel guilty for becoming ruthless and desire-filled, but godamnit it feels great to drive a Ferrari....maybe the Christian God can alleviate my guilt. They are following the Western path of development some 50 years back in history. And look at us!...so many turning to Buddhism!

So I'm just saying, don't be fooled by the happiness of some of the poor. Their happiness will disappear over generations as modernization and opportunity occur. Then they will be where you are now. Happiness is always a caused phenomenon, unless you are enlightened. To model yourself on poor is sort of looking backwards in a way. Instead realize that all happiness is temporary, and that you are literally a slave to your desires. One day soon, everything will be taken from you, including your money, your family, your health and your life. Everything you've worked so hard for, taken back! That's what needs contemplating.

 

[Julia]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with that statement absolutely. Money has absolutely nothing to do with happiness, in fact happiness or sadness is how we CHOOSE to respond to our environment, its not an outcome of an input.

I first learnt this important lesson when I started travelling a lot in 3rd world countries and I was struck by the reality that most people were happier there than in my own wealthy 1st world country.

I think in the above comment you are omitting a vital fact which is that we inevitably compare ourselves to those around us. Status is only perceived by comparison. Someone who is considered poor in Australia will be considered enormously rich in most third world countries.
Countless studies have shown that it's not the actual dollar amount of wealth we have that allows us to feel we have enough, but rather how we fit on the relative scale of the overall population.

For you to say "money has absolutely nothing to do with happiness" imo is either ill considered or somewhat naive.
Have you ever actually been poor? Have you ever been starving because you simply cannot afford enough food?
Have you ever slept on the street because you don't have the price of accommodation?

Two people might be unfortunate enough to be diagnosed with a life threatening illness. The person who has enough money to pursue private care will not have to sit for years on a waiting list only then to be assigned to a less than professional doctor which is what can happen to people depending on the public system.
As several people have observed, health is a major factor in happiness.
If you can afford to properly look after your health, pretty obviously you're going to be happier than someone who will die on a public hospital waiting list.

Somewhat aside from this, an anecdote from this afternoon shopping at Woolworths. While tossing items into my trolley I noticed a middle aged woman painstakingly comparing prices on the shelves. She seemed anxious in demeanour. I happened to end up following her at the checkout. Her bill came to more than she had money for, so she apologetically and with obvious embarrassment asked the clerk to deduct two items, total value about $5. I so felt for her and it occurred to me how easy it would be to say "put those items back in, I'm happy to pay for them". But then I thought that this could cause her a loss of dignity and the sense of being patronised, so didn't do it. I keep thinking about her.

What would other ASF members have done? Is it better to try to help someone who obviously is struggling, or is it better to let their dignity be preserved? I don't know.

Whatever in this situation, for anyone to say money has nothing to do with happiness just makes no sense to me.

GB makes some good points in his comments.

 

[MrBurns]

Somewhat aside from this, an anecdote from this afternoon shopping at Woolworths. While tossing items into my trolley I noticed a middle aged woman painstakingly comparing prices on the shelves. She seemed anxious in demeanour. I happened to end up following her at the checkout. Her bill came to more than she had money for, so she apologetically and with obvious embarrassment asked the clerk to deduct two items, total value about $5. I so felt for her and it occurred to me how easy it would be to say "put those items back in, I'm happy to pay for them". But then I thought that this could cause her a loss of dignity and the sense of being patronised, so didn't do it. I keep thinking about her. .

This sums up what it must be like to be financially deficient these days
Happiness for that woman would be just to have enough money to buy the basics and perhaps a few treats

 

[craft]

A lack of money in today's society can be a problem - but once you have a modest amount, money becomes just a number, like a score in a computer game. It tells you nothing about success or happiness, the important things in life are measured in relationships and contentment.


This is a thought provoking video on money & life.

http://vimeo.com/11769810

 

[sptrawler]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with that statement absolutely. Money has absolutely nothing to do with happiness, in fact happiness or sadness is how we CHOOSE to respond to our environment, its not an outcome of an input.

I first learnt this important lesson when I started travelling a lot in 3rd world countries and I was struck by the reality that most people were happier there than in my own wealthy 1st world country.

I don't see many boatloads of people heading over to 3rd world countries in search of happiness.

I have been poor and I can tell you, the worry is all consuming, you either dig your way out or give up.

What money does is, it gives you options, choices.

When you have no money, you don't have the option of saying 'no', you basicaly have to take what's offered.

 

[Smurf1976]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with that statement absolutely. Money has absolutely nothing to do with happiness

It's difficult to be happy when a "good" meal is home cooked chips and you can't afford to participate in society.

We're a lot better off than most countries (including many "developed" ones) but right now there are plenty of people, in Australia, waiting for medical care that will not arrive before it's too late or who are literally shivering in the dark because they can't afford power. I'm pretty sure that an increase in wealth would make them a lot happier.

My experience is that those who aren't too concerned about money are usually people who have enough of it already.

 

[galumay]

Julia & others, I hear what you are saying and realise its a commonly held belief, but i continue to strongly hold the view that happiness is not an outcome as a result of inputs - be it material wealth, family, relationships or anything else. Its a chosen response, I choose to be happy therefore I am.

I am getting ready to ride to work, at 5am on a sunday morning, I could find many reasons not to be happy about that, but my choice is to be happy and enjoy.

I wont continue to labour the point - its not entirely relevant to the original question about measuring success anyway - and its clear that there is a philosophical difference whereby most of you believe that happiness is a response rather than a choice.

To finish I will repeat my mantra, "happiness is not a destination, its a way of travelling, so hop up and get on the train!"

 

[Julia]

Julia & others, I hear what you are saying and realise its a commonly held belief, but i continue to strongly hold the view that happiness is not an outcome as a result of inputs - be it material wealth, family, relationships or anything else. Its a chosen response, I choose to be happy therefore I am.

This is the basic 'positive thinking' stuff that we've all been exposed to at some stage and there's much to be said for it. But it's a world away from actually being happy if you have plenty to be unhappy about.

I am getting ready to ride to work, at 5am on a sunday morning, I could find many reasons not to be happy about that, but my choice is to be happy and enjoy.

And why wouldn't you be happy about having a job to go to which will allow you money to live on?
That you obviously are healthy enough to ride to work? You're able to afford a computer and likely other ordinary household comforts that most of us take for granted.

You haven't responded to my asking if you've ever not had enough money to buy food, to use enough electricity to keep warm, or slept on the street because you have no money for accommodation. No obligation, of course, but I think most people would be hard pressed to feel completely happy in any of those situations.

To finish I will repeat my mantra, "happiness is not a destination, its a way of travelling, so hop up and get on the train!"

Sure. As is contained in the thousands of self help books continuing to sell similar messages.
I'm glad to know you think happiness is so easily acquired. Millions of people in different situations from yours would disagree.

Agree with Craft about money just becoming about numbers once you have enough. It's what I meant when referring to obsession with forever wanting more.

 

[tech/a]

Positive effect on others

Even if it's just one person.

 

[Longjaw]

Somewhat aside from this, an anecdote from this afternoon shopping at Woolworths. While tossing items into my trolley I noticed a middle aged woman painstakingly comparing prices on the shelves. She seemed anxious in demeanour. I happened to end up following her at the checkout. Her bill came to more than she had money for, so she apologetically and with obvious embarrassment asked the clerk to deduct two items, total value about $5. I so felt for her and it occurred to me how easy it would be to say "put those items back in, I'm happy to pay for them". But then I thought that this could cause her a loss of dignity and the sense of being patronised, so didn't do it. I keep thinking about her.

What would other ASF members have done? Is it better to try to help someone who obviously is struggling, or is it better to let their dignity be preserved? I don't know.

.

Why didn't you (as I have done in the past myself) pay for the items yourself when it was your time to be served (As those items would be sitting to the side),catch up with the lady and give them to her in the car-park ,by not doing anything when you are in a position to do so is pretty stereotype for someone with money,and I would be embarrassed to admit on a public forum you didn't help.

 

[stewiejp]

As the original topic post implies, (How do YOU measure..) - it's ok to have different ideas on what's an accurate measure of success. Just throwing it out there...

Success=Happiness seems to be a common theme. The little old lady at the supermarket who was $5 short. Sure, having that extra $5 could have made her a bit happier, I'm tipping nothing would make her happier than nursing her new grand child, or great grandchild though. Just from the little old ladies I've met in my life.

I see money as a tool, it can be used to "buy happiness" - if you have enough of the stuff you don't have to work, giving you more time to spend with the family, golf, whatever you enjoy - and if you don't, you keep working generally. Or you keep working because you love your job. Using money or assets as a measure to success - I don't know if I'd go that far though. I'd like to think whatever legacy you leave behind would be a more accurate measure - your kids, grandkids, and what they have or have not learnt from you after you have gone I think would be my measure.

 

[sydboy007]

I've been earning more money that i ever really dreamed of earning when I was younger.

I remember when I first moved to Sydney and living on $30K a year, which with the tax scales back then wasn't a huge amount of money. I wasn't on struggle street, but certainly had to think about money in a very different way to now. Back then my choices were how to make it meet all my needs then decide between a small amount of savings or doing something fun with friends.

These days my income is about balancing enjoying life and saving. I don't want to die rich without say the travel and exploring the world I value, but also want to continue to do that as I'm older.

I do believe in general terms happiness is a choice, but also know that the hand were dealt can make that choice easier or harder.

I wish I still had a poem I read back in uni by a boy who was in the Belsen concentration camp. The way he saw such beauty beyond the barbed wire fence, and at times within it was truly inspirational. I felt then that I had no excuse but to choose to be happy because I would never have to go through the horrors he did.

So most of the time I choose to be happy with what I have, and to be honest all of us in this country have a lot to be happy about. I focus on what I have, and that lets me be content with my lot in life. I think growing up poor was a good thing, because I really don't have too many wants in life. I'm happy to have an "old" smart phone does that the job for me, and happy to wear clothes that are 5 or more years old

So I'm happy to have a walk around the botanic gardens last weekend in the divine autumn weather, and happy that my neighbour's cat popped around for a visit and some lap time with me yesterday afternoon. Happy to chat to my gran each week and introduce her to new ideas I've read about, or let her reminisce about the good ol' days in Scotland when she'd get a REAL winter . Happy to be teaching my dad about finance concepts so he has a better understanding of where he's been investing his savings.

The universe has been good to me, and even though I've had my failures and set backs, I still have the kind of life I only dreamed about when I was growing up in a poverty line family 20 odd years ago.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Julia & others, I hear what you are saying and realise its a commonly held belief, but i continue to strongly hold the view that happiness is not an outcome as a result of inputs - be it material wealth, family, relationships or anything else. Its a chosen response, I choose to be happy therefore I am.

I am getting ready to ride to work, at 5am on a sunday morning, I could find many reasons not to be happy about that, but my choice is to be happy and enjoy.

I wont continue to labour the point - its not entirely relevant to the original question about measuring success anyway - and its clear that there is a philosophical difference whereby most of you believe that happiness is a response rather than a choice.

To finish I will repeat my mantra, "happiness is not a destination, its a way of travelling, so hop up and get on the train!"

I understand exactly what you're saying. Aaron Beck, the founder of cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) said exactly the same thing that you are now. You may be aware that CBT is the most effective and widely used psychological therapy used today, world wide.

You're saying happiness is a choice, yes, but it's still an output of that choice. The input is the changing of thoughts, beliefs and attitudes. The output is happiness. You're saying that circumstance (low income, poor housing, being alone) is secondary. I agree, you can change your filter to alter your output (mood) regardless of circumstance. It's been scientifically proven many times.

Basically I'm saying GOOD ON YOU! You've realized what few people ever realize in their whole lives. This is not to say it's an easy thing to do. One needs both 1) insight and 2) will power. When circumstances are very poor, it's extremely hard to back up with the will power required to alter the input, but it's definitely possible. I've done it.

The happy people you've met in 3rd world countries have given you the insight. For whatever reason (I mentioned a few in my last post), they have certain mental filters that allow happiness in the face of difficult circumstances.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Here's a nice animation of Plato's Analogy of the Cave.

In this animation, the "cut out shapes" represent the mind. These are interchangeable in the sense that you can choose to think this way or that way. However they are still an "input". The "output" is the shadow on the wall. The idea of all reasonable philosophies and religions is to not just alter the image on the wall, but to turn around and see what the hell is throwing all these reflections around.

http://www.ancientgreece.co.uk/knowledge/story/sto_set.html

Before I mention a well known quote, I feel compelled to say that I'm not a Christian. Actually I'm not an *anything*. However, when Jesus said "It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven", what he meant was that if the image on the wall is too compelling (too fun, too enjoyable, too comfortable), then you have very little reason to try to break free of the shackles. It's not a condemnation of wealth. You don't go to hell for having a sh1tload of money, but you do get stuck in the cave. You never get to walk outside of Plato's cave into the sun. The sun (aka God) is not a "place" or a "thing" however. It's what you are....so they say. One thing.

 

[Julia]

Why didn't you (as I have done in the past myself) pay for the items yourself when it was your time to be served (As those items would be sitting to the side),catch up with the lady and give them to her in the car-park

Nice idea, except:
I had around 60 items to be scanned, packed and paid for.
Supermarket was packed, as was outside area in middle of large mall.
Three separate exits going in three separate directions.
Three separate car parks, all full.
So hardly a practical suggestion.

I would be embarrassed to admit on a public forum you didn't help.

I'm not embarrassed at all to admit that I didn't know what would be the best thing to do. That's why I sought input from others and I'm interested that - apart from your less than practical suggestion - no one has wanted to comment.

Success=Happiness seems to be a common theme. The little old lady at the supermarket who was $5 short.

Just for the record, she wasn't a little old lady. She was an apparently able bodied woman around 40.
Totally agree, however, on your description about what can constitute happiness for many.

 

[waza1960]

Happiness = Success= for me is being able to look to the future positively and not look back on my past with regrets .Regard prior hassles and mistakes as a learning experience.
Also trying to achieve a balanced family/work balance also very important.

Its a chosen response, I choose to be happy therefore I am.

Totally disagree obviously you have never had to struggle to survive otherwise you would think differently.

 

[qldfrog]

Nice idea, except:
I had around 60 items to be scanned, packed and paid for.
Supermarket was packed, as was outside area in middle of large mall.
Three separate exits going in three separate directions.
Three separate car parks, all full.
So hardly a practical suggestion.

I'm not embarrassed at all to admit that I didn't know what would be the best thing to do. That's why I sought input from others and I'm interested that - apart from your less than practical suggestion - no one has wanted to comment.


Just for the record, she wasn't a little old lady. She was an apparently able bodied woman around 40.
Totally agree, however, on your description about what can constitute happiness for many.

after thinking about it, and to be sure of what I should do if that happens to me,
I would pay for the items myself at the counter and directly
but with some self rightous conditions:
would not pay for a box of lollies, crap food or otherwise, or if the lady leaves the bread/flour sugar behind but keep her copy of "new ideas" anyway you see the point.
would that be fair?