House prices to keep rising for years

[Tinpusher]

Oh and only 1 bought an IP and 1 age (45) bought his own home---had and still has a Porsche!---whats that tell you other than Image?
(Tells me dumb debt --but in his game of smoke and mirrors---a requirement---who'd talk to an F/A in a 2000 Commadore?).

tech,

I'd be more interested in his assets under management (ie practice what he preaches) than what he drives.

I have a colleague south with a couple of mil in net assets in Brisvegas and he drives a 20yr old wreck (he does own his own aircraft tho).

Within 5 years I hope to buy a 40 foot Hunter cruising yacht and ship it over from the states (boats are way cheaper there) - but hell, I like sailing, it soothes my soul and the wind in FNQ is free and over 15kts most of the year..

Maybe people will comment on my poverty since my car will be 8 years old then.

I reckon the local real estate agents with their 07/08 Audi's, Merc's and Lexus' are the ones that make me laugh. What does that tell you of our over heated R/E market?

 

[Tom Ronalds]

@ tech/a:

Look, I'd be the first one to admit that many financial planners are no more than product sellers. The big banks and the likes of AMP/AXA view their "wealth management" sections as "distribution channels" - they even refer to them as such.

You just need to go to an employment site like Seek to see that just about any bank ad will stress that to get the job, you must have "proven selling skills".

The fund managers make a lot more money out of managing your funds, than they would out of just taking a percentage of the financial planner's fee revenues in order to provide the compliance and other services that an Australian Financial Services Licensee is obliged to provide to its authorised representatives.

When you then look at the overall investment & taxation and other required technical knowledge that these planners exhibit, it tends to be woeful.

At the same time, however, top quality advisers do exist, and over the last few years in particular, they have been growing in numbers. They will typically work for boutique practices that in many cases have their own AFSL licence, so as to eliminate the product-related conflict of interest. They will work on a fee for service basis and will charge for advice, with product selection being only the last step of a comprehensive plan. In some cases, these guys will act solely as overall strategists and will pass the actual portfolio design to other specialists, who do nothing but that and hold the appropriate qualifications.

I think it is unrealistic to look back now and say "they should have known back in 1997 that it was a good time to buy property". The truth is that nobody could have known, just like nobody could really know that prices would grow still much further, considering there were all the indications around in 2004 that the property bubble would burst there and then. Just do a Google search for "Australian property bubble" to see what I mean.

Financial advisers are in fact not allowed to give direct property advice. If you come to me and ask "I'm looking at such and such a property - does it look like a good deal?" - then I can run the fundamental figures and say yes or no. I can also say that in the context of your overall portfolio, buying an investment property could be an appropriate strategy.

But I can't say "you should go and buy such and such a house over at Sheridan Street, because it's a bargain". That's not allowed under the general provisions of the AFSL licence.

On the other side of things, the vast majority of Australians will go and look at buying an investment property as their very first major investment. That is not a good idea in most cases, regardless of the overall appearance of the market. The minimum cost of such an investment means by definition that the person concerned will have a very large loan liability, concentrated into an illiquid, inflexible asset with very high entry and exit costs. It will also mean his/her investments will all be concentrated in the proverbial "one basket". Furthermore, they tend to lack the experience which comes over years of investing, so often get sucked in by smooth-talking salesmen into buying what turns out to be by far not the best option.

So in such cases, there is no way I'd say "yes, go and do it" - regardless of the broader property market outlook. I'd be much more likely to say "look, why don't you invest in a selection of listed property trusts - these will give you the exposure to a similar sector, and yet will be liquid, flexible, offer very low entry and exit costs and you can size your position to allow you to diversify elsewhere; say into some top blue chips, to get the benefit of franking as well."

Top financial advisers do not pretend to be the pickers of the next best investment sector. They are also reluctant to trade clients' portfolios too much; the costs of that tend to be high, it simply is not what is expected from us and in the context of running a practice, it generally cannot be done anyway.

In any case, you can often save clients a lot more through a strategic restructuring of their affairs than by trying to find the best investments and manage them overly actively. To give you an example, a couple I have been working with recently can expect tax savings alone in the vicinity of $350,000 over the next 10 years or thereabouts - purely through taking advantage of the relevant legislative rules and arranging their affairs accordingly. There is no product sale involved and they are happy to pay $10K/annum to have this strategy managed.

The risk of under-delivering is then also a lot lower than with chasing high returns; we are simply taking advantage of existing tax rules. If those change, we will change our strategy accordingly. We will not have to worry about a high performing investment suddenly doing a Centro/ABS/AFG/MFS on the background of greatly positive analysts' recommendations, coupled with a market downturn.

This is where good advisers add value, without having to be overly active portfolio managers and without pretending to know whether buying a property today will see you double your investment over the next 5 years.

Good advisers will, however, not hesitate to tell their clients that on any fundamental measure you care to use, residential property is now grossly overvalued, that many Australians are overloaded with debt and that if the economy slows down sufficiently - which is likely considering the developing situation in USA/Europe, we will have a substantial problem on our hands. This is just employing some common sense and being prudent.

It doesn't mean I'd be telling everyone to go 100% cash though. It also doesn't mean that I will say to a long term investor "get out of CBA; it's dropped by 25% from its peak and the chart is quite bearish at the moment".

Alas, sometimes it does mean that you will have the CNP/AFG and so on in some of your clients' portfolios. Nobody is infallible and if the track record has been top-notch, the fundamentals look good and you get consistent commentary from the analyst "gurus" that getting into AFG at $6 is a bargain, then you are likely to crash and burn very quickly from time to time. This is why you do not allocate 100% of your money into any one asset; property inclusive.

Am I certain I am right? -- Of course not. Nobody can be. But that's the best I can do and I don't pretend to be able to do better. There is only one Warren Buffett and even he does not give tax and superannuation advice!

Cheers,

Tom R.

 

[KIWIKARLOS]

Ok so lets look at the facts house prices and indeed asset prices are going down in the US , UK and Spain whilst Austalia house prices continue to climb.
I live in a group of townhouses I bought 18months ago at 425K one just sold in our group with a smaller yard and two common walls for $460K thats a good return in 18 months. I was speaking to the agent he also recently recorder a record sale price at a large townhouse complex down the road.

Given this is one suburb we are talking about but many are in the same situation.

Anyways the big difference between US, UK, Spain and OZ is that although we all have very large current account deficieits ours is in private debt. Also
the US, and UK economies in particular run on asset prices increasing ours runs on commodity's. Since 1980 the US has been growing on the back of consumer spending and asset price increases which have been increasing the goverment and personal debt levels to huge hieghts.

 

[KIWIKARLOS]

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html

most countries will not experince asset price decreases really its only the ones with very high foreign government debt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_account

"It should be noted that a current account deficit is not always a problem. The "Pitchford Thesis" states that a current account deficit does not matter if it is driven by the private sector. Some feel that this theory has held true for the Australian economy, which has had a persistent current account deficit, yet has experienced economic growth for the past 16 years (1991-2007). Others argue that Australia is accumulating a substantial foreign debt that could become problematic, especially if interest rates increase. A deficit in the current account also implies that the country is a net capital importer."

 

[Tinpusher]

the US, and UK economies in particular run on asset prices increasing ours runs on commodity's. Since 1980 the US has been growing on the back of consumer spending and asset price increases which have been increasing the goverment and personal debt levels to huge hieghts.

Kiwi,

The Americans are smart and savvy, if you are using windows or mac software to write on a machine licenced to a US firm (made in China of course) think about it (and the web is their invention).

Australian's can only dream of being as innovative and inventive. Mate we don't even ship steel anymore in any quantity we just send the iron ore AND we allow the Chinese to buy the mine (???).

Australian personal debt levels exceeds US debt as does our consumerism. Our P/E (rental yields for the E) on our Real Estate exceeds theirs before their recent bang.

As with everything we lag the 'old' economies of the US and the UK. The 'bang' won't happen overnight but it will happen. Who will get burned first with the 'negative equity' fuelling the runaway train? The owner occupier or the negatively geared investor?

It will be the investors with high gearing ratios.

"I hear a-train a-coming.."

http://www.whocrashedtheeconomy.com/?cat=2

 

[ROE]

Ok so lets look at the facts house prices and indeed asset prices are going down in the US , UK and Spain whilst Austalia house prices continue to climb.
I live in a group of townhouses I bought 18months ago at 425K one just sold in our group with a smaller yard and two common walls for $460K thats a good return in 18 months. I was speaking to the agent he also recently recorder a record sale price at a large townhouse complex down the road.

That's 5% increase a year... you actually going backward if you sell at that price and live in it. You would pay 7%-8% interest Plus 1.5% stamp duty and sale commission

It doesnt pay to get in and out of property

Just imagine if price doesn't move at all.

 

[Aargh!]

Ok so lets look at the facts house prices and indeed asset prices are going down in the US , UK and Spain whilst Austalia house prices continue to climb.
I live in a group of townhouses I bought 18months ago at 425K one just sold in our group with a smaller yard and two common walls for $460K thats a good return in 18 months. I was speaking to the agent he also recently recorder a record sale price at a large townhouse complex down the road.

I'd say that that return is quite poor.... Depending on a few factors.

Say that you bought the property at 80% Leverage = 0.8 x 425,000 = 340,000

Interest at 7.5% p.a. for 18 months = 340,000 x 0.075 x 1.5yrs = 38,250

Maintenance and RE fees for sale say = 10,000

Cost of ownership = 38,250 + 10,000 = 48,250

Current approx value (based on similar recent sale) = 460,000

Net postion if sold = 460,000 - 48,250 = 411,750

Profit/Loss = 425,000 - 411,750 = 13,250 Loss = -3.1%

Now my figures assume no tax concessions for interest (if it were a IP) and a few other things but even so the figures are quite poor IMHO.

 

[numbercruncher]

I'd say that that return is quite poor.... Depending on a few factors.

Say that you bought the property at 80% Leverage = 0.8 x 425,000 = 340,000

Interest at 7.5% p.a. for 18 months = 340,000 x 0.075 x 1.5yrs = 38,250

Maintenance and RE fees for sale say = 10,000

Cost of ownership = 38,250 + 10,000 = 48,250

Current approx value (based on similar recent sale) = 460,000

Net postion if sold = 460,000 - 48,250 = 411,750

Profit/Loss = 425,000 - 411,750 = 13,250 Loss = -3.1%

Now my figures assume no tax concessions for interest (if it were a IP) and a few other things but even so the figures are quite poor IMHO.

And the other one RE bulls forget to mention is the 10k stamp duty - not to mention Conveyancing, rates, Loan establishment fees etc and that variable Interest rates are now 20pc higher. They are predicting 10pc mortgages this year !

If there is indeed a downturn you can easily see how walloped people will get.

Property bulls should be begging China to buy more stuff and lobbying the Unions to doll out payrises to keep this baby going

 

[Aargh!]

And the other one RE bulls forget to mention is the 10k stamp duty - not to mention Conveyancing, rates, Loan establishment fees etc and that variable Interest rates are now 20pc higher. They are predicting 10pc mortgages this year !

If there is indeed a downturn you can easily see how walloped people will get.

Property bulls should be begging China to buy more stuff and lobbying the Unions to doll out payrises to keep this baby going

I agree with your view of where this one is headed.

I've done the number on numerous properties but I always come to the same conclusion which is to leave RE alone at these levels. Friends and colleauges tell me about their RE profits but after analysis only one modestly beat the cash rate while all others went backwards.

I continually can't believe the level financial education the majority of people have. In my profession I'm surrounded by intelligent people who are just outright stupid when it comes to dealing with money. I could vent all day about examples and especially ones about RE.

 

[KIWIKARLOS]

Who said anything about property as an investment ?
The title of this forum is "house prices to keep rising for years"

I would argue that property hs always been a poorer investment than things such as investment funds and sharemarkets for almost 100 years. Really if you take inflation out of the price between 1950 and now most people would be loosing.

I live in my house not only becuase of the "safety" of the investment but also the lifestyle. I wouldn't personally invest in real estate any more I think people 5-10 years ago were lucky with the boom. As for rental properties the returns are poor and its just a pain in the @ss to manage. Not like investment funds which require far less capital outlay, little follow up work and better returns.

I think the discussion has lost focus I'm simply saying I don't believe we will experience an overall asset depreciation like the US is and UK, Spain might.
Its not just house prices tanking in the US its all the big banks investments , bonds, insurance. Our financial markets pail in comparison to the US and haven't been as infiltrated by these dodgy new economic vehicles and deregulation that the big US banks pushed on the congress and US people.

Can anyone provide any information that gives good reason to believe that large portions of the OZ market will have 10%+ declines ? becuase there is a lot of data and info showing the opposite.

 

[KIWIKARLOS]

Also in regard to the U been "innovative" and everyone using their technology etc. Their biggest innovations are based around military technology. Sure they control the computer market and companies such as IBM, HP etc are doing ok but as a % of the total US economy this sector I imagine would be a very small portion, most of the computer components are built overseas anyhow?

Major oil producing countries aren't "innovative" but they are looking much healthier economically than the US. They ship raw product which gets refined and turned into fertilizer, plastics and a huge variety of fuels. It actually works in our advantage to not turn ore into steel here as the steel is made where the market is. The huge capital costs etc involved and the fact that other countries have well established industries means we essentially get lots of money for little outlay.

Indeed the US was innovative for any years but I believe they have been neglecting their science and technology for a long time now. Europe, australia and asia are now just as innovative as they are in certain fields.
Besides the fact that industrial piracy pretty much nullifies as large scale benefit the US might of had from its tech edge.

 

[explod]

hello,

////

robots

What has this post got to do with house prices.

Amazed that you have come back after the weekend results. You must have a bit of an in with the establishment too, never a cross word for nought.

Yes this thread is about rising property prices as No. 1 but upper most on ASF is good investing, and property at the moment has a cloud over its head.

 

[tech/a]

TOM and co

@ tech/a:

Look, I'd be the first one to admit that many financial planners are no more than product sellers. The big banks and the likes of AMP/AXA view their "wealth management" sections as "distribution channels" - they even refer to them as such.

You just need to go to an employment site like Seek to see that just about any bank ad will stress that to get the job, you must have "proven selling skills".

The fund managers make a lot more money out of managing your funds, than they would out of just taking a percentage of the financial planner's fee revenues in order to provide the compliance and other services that an Australian Financial Services Licensee is obliged to provide to its authorised representatives.

When you then look at the overall investment & taxation and other required technical knowledge that these planners exhibit, it tends to be woeful.

This seems to be more the norm than the exception.

At the same time, however, top quality advisers do exist, and over the last few years in particular, they have been growing in numbers. They will typically work for boutique practices that in many cases have their own AFSL licence, so as to eliminate the product-related conflict of interest. They will work on a fee for service basis and will charge for advice, with product selection being only the last step of a comprehensive plan. In some cases, these guys will act solely as overall strategists and will pass the actual portfolio design to other specialists, who do nothing but that and hold the appropriate qualifications.

I have been to 2 of these so called Boutique type practices and each time upon recommendation.I'm very serious when I say that these guys really had no idea.One suggested I place $57,000 a year in super.Bloody hell if I cant make $57k a year work harder than a one off tax break I'll go he.

I think it is unrealistic to look back now and say "they should have known back in 1997 that it was a good time to buy property". The truth is that nobody could have known, just like nobody could really know that prices would grow still much further, considering there were all the indications around in 2004 that the property bubble would burst there and then. Just do a Google search for "Australian property bubble" to see what I mean.

Tom.
Of course you could.
(1) You could buy established property cheaper than new property,carpets tiling,Gardens,drives paving all done way way under the cost of replacement.
(2) You could go out and buy just about any property 20% down and be positively geared---a complete no brainer.
(3) by 2000 commercial and Industrial property relative to general housing was amazingly cheap.Here you could and I did buy industrial land for $120K an acre,domestic was $120k for 400 square meters that to was a no brainer.

Now seriously you cant tell me you cant identify areas of stalling/reversal and opportunity in the property market---today?

Financial advisers are in fact not allowed to give direct property advice. If you come to me and ask "I'm looking at such and such a property - does it look like a good deal?" - then I can run the fundamental figures and say yes or no. I can also say that in the context of your overall portfolio, buying an investment property could be an appropriate strategy.

But I can't say "you should go and buy such and such a house over at Sheridan Street, because it's a bargain". That's not allowed under the general provisions of the AFSL licence.

You dont have to be specific,you just have to recognise opportunity for your clients.

On the other side of things, the vast majority of Australians will go and look at buying an investment property as their very first major investment. That is not a good idea in most cases, regardless of the overall appearance of the market. The minimum cost of such an investment means by definition that the person concerned will have a very large loan liability, concentrated into an illiquid, inflexible asset with very high entry and exit costs. It will also mean his/her investments will all be concentrated in the proverbial "one basket". Furthermore, they tend to lack the experience which comes over years of investing, so often get sucked in by smooth-talking salesmen into buying what turns out to be by far not the best option.

Cant disagree more.If you can clearly buy with positive gearing from the get go with ALL costs covered its like buying BHP at $10.

So in such cases, there is no way I'd say "yes, go and do it" - regardless of the broader property market outlook. I'd be much more likely to say "look, why don't you invest in a selection of listed property trusts - these will give you the exposure to a similar sector, and yet will be liquid, flexible, offer very low entry and exit costs and you can size your position to allow you to diversify elsewhere; say into some top blue chips, to get the benefit of franking as well."

Well one huge tactic for massive growth potential is immediately lost.I cant go to a bank and say I have $50K now loan me $200K so I can buy property trusts.When I bought houses then my money down was $40 k on $200k my return on the 40k is now 700% by doing this multiple times diversification was/is pure lunacy. "Go where the money is and go there often!"

Top financial advisers do not pretend to be the pickers of the next best investment sector. They are also reluctant to trade clients' portfolios too much; the costs of that tend to be high, it simply is not what is expected from us and in the context of running a practice, it generally cannot be done anyway.

So what we can expect is expensive mediocrity!

In any case, you can often save clients a lot more through a strategic restructuring of their affairs than by trying to find the best investments and manage them overly actively. To give you an example, a couple I have been working with recently can expect tax savings alone in the vicinity of $350,000 over the next 10 years or thereabouts - purely through taking advantage of the relevant legislative rules and arranging their affairs accordingly. There is no product sale involved and they are happy to pay $10K/annum to have this strategy managed.

Excellent so what are you doing with their extra 250K they will have available after your fees?

The risk of under-delivering is then also a lot lower than with chasing high returns; we are simply taking advantage of existing tax rules. If those change, we will change our strategy accordingly. We will not have to worry about a high performing investment suddenly doing a Centro/ABS/AFG/MFS on the background of greatly positive analysts' recommendations, coupled with a market downturn.

Any accountant worth their fee can do that.Not ANY consultant can place you into a trading stratagy which will weather a centro or 2 in their portfolio which consistently out performs the white elephants called Managed funds or worse a portfolio selected on some "experts" valuation of prospects.
Those that can will return you the riches you seek,those who pedal conservatism will return exactly that. If I or 90% of the population had the choice I know which one we would take.

This is where good advisers add value, without having to be overly active portfolio managers and without pretending to know whether buying a property today will see you double your investment over the next 5 years.

but thats what we want---we want EXPERTS who DO recognise opportunity well before we do---thats what experts do---then give us the heads up so we can take advantage of it NOW---not look back with everyone else and say bugga missed the strongest bull run in housing history---your kidding your lot didnt/couldnt see it coming---it lasted 8 yrs!

Good advisers will, however, not hesitate to tell their clients that on any fundamental measure you care to use, residential property is now grossly overvalued, that many Australians are overloaded with debt and that if the economy slows down sufficiently - which is likely considering the developing situation in USA/Europe, we will have a substantial problem on our hands. This is just employing some common sense and being prudent.

Terrific they can un catagorically tell me when a run is OVER but cant ell me when its in its developement phase so I can take advantage of it. I'm no expert but I can also spruik exactly the same.I can also tell you that there STILL is opportunity in property if you know what to look for.
Thats what Id want to know from an EXPERT---what to look for---the signs---setups---wahts an opportunity look like?

See below

 

[tech/a]

It doesn't mean I'd be telling everyone to go 100% cash though. It also doesn't mean that I will say to a long term investor "get out of CBA; it's dropped by 25% from its peak and the chart is quite bearish at the moment".

Alas, sometimes it does mean that you will have the CNP/AFG and so on in some of your clients' portfolios. Nobody is infallible and if the track record has been top-notch, the fundamentals look good and you get consistent commentary from the analyst "gurus" that getting into AFG at $6 is a bargain, then you are likely to crash and burn very quickly from time to time. This is why you do not allocate 100% of your money into any one asset; property inclusive.

Well I dont agree,there are ways of mitigating risk without the necessity of diversification.You can take FULL advantage of opportunity with confidence and still protect yourself from failure in one asset class.
But ofcourse as an expert you know this!

Am I certain I am right? -- Of course not. Nobody can be. But that's the best I can do and I don't pretend to be able to do better. There is only one Warren Buffett and even he does not give tax and superannuation advice!

Cheers,

Tom R.

Tom of course they CAN BE. If they couldnt then there wouldnt be a growing number of Millionaires in Australia or elsewhere.
Some get it right---are they just lucky gamblers--I think not.
What sets them apart is---- the ability to recognise opportunity,work out what to do with it and do something immediately.

Unfortunately for the masses they dont reside in the Financial Advice fraternity.
Where like the majority of the populace they are frozen by fear of loss,getting it wrong,without a clear understanding of how to manage investment IF IT DOES GO WRONG.

Know this---NO FEAR.
The only risk management stratagy I see or hear pedelled is Diversification.
Is that ALL that Experts can offer------??

I rest my case.

 

[wayneL]

Tech,

With so much knowledge, confidence and ability, it sounds a bit like you've underperformed. You should own half of Adelaide by now.

 

[tech/a]

Tech,

With so much knowledge, confidence and ability, it sounds a bit like you've underperformed. You should own half of Adelaide by now.

Wayne.

There you go again.

Everytime I post up anything you have to turn it into something where you think I'm doing this for my own personal benifit.
The only thing about me in this is the example of one deal.

Property is a part of business---so---

Whats with the sarcastic crap.
About time you moderated yourself.

 

[wayneL]

Wayne.

There you go again.

Everytime I post up anything you have to turn it into something where you think I'm doing this for my own personal benifit.
The only thing about me in this is the example of one deal.

Property is a part of business---so---

Whats with the sarcastic crap.
About time you moderated yourself.

I suggest you read Nassim Taleb's "Fooled By Randomness". Perhaps you may see some ironies... perhaps not.

Re moderating: The roll of moderator is to uphold the code of conduct. It does not mean that the moderator is precluded from opinions disagreeing with others or refraining from normal conversational banter.

Re "sarcastic crap": It was not sarcastic, merely an honest observation on the divergence between your financial performance and your assertions in the above posts. That ain't sarcasm.

You have to be able to take as good as you give.

 

[tech/a]

divergence between your financial performance and your assertions in the above posts. That ain't sarcasm.

This is going to be good.


How do you know my financial performance?
Id love to shut you and a few others up here perminently.

What would you like to see Wayne.
The magic Million is far gone.
A public apology will be required upon fulfilment.
Far from Hot air I'm involved in it----live it and APPLY it.

 

[wayneL]

This is going to be good.


How do you know my financial performance?
Id love to shut you and a few others up here perminently.

Tech,

You can't shut me up because... well, you can't. LOL

But FWIW, it's not to hard to get a fair idea of your performance from publicly available information. You're doing OK for yourself, business is going well, a few projects on the go. Fine, good on you, life is good apart from the yearning for kudos.

What would you like to see Wayne.
The magic Million is far gone.
A public apology will be required upon fulfilment.
Far from Hot air I'm involved in it----live it and APPLY it.

But according to you, this bull run was totally predictable. The question then becomes: Why didn't you hock yourself to the eyeballs on property and acquire 800 properties since 1996, like the couple I met here recently (putatively worth about £120 million)? Why did you plonk a miserable $30k in the stock market when you started Techtrader? Why not a hell of a lot more?

Fear?

Lack of foresight?

Unable to predict the bull run?

You've done OK, but I'll bet there are some here that could buy and sell you a few times over on a rainy Wednesday afternoon over a few tinnies.

 

[tech/a]

Tech,

You can't shut me up because... well, you can't. LOL

But FWIW, it's not to hard to get a fair idea of your performance from publicly available information. You're doing OK for yourself, business is going well, a few projects on the go.

Really.

Fine, good on you, life is good apart from the yearning for kudos.

You know this gets up my nose. Using personal examples is part of discussion,If I didnt have any then my arguement would be pretty limp.

Personally my view is a great deal of the information given on here and by many professionals,is pretty average. Your contributions Wayne tend to fall in this catagory.Average is fine if you wish to be average.
I stepped out of Average years ago so I'll post some stuff that challenges conventional thinking,so that readers can challenge their conditioned thinking and investigate ways of returning un conventional results.

I enjoy discussion particularly on the topics of Business Trading and Property.

But according to you, this bull run was totally predictable. The question then becomes: Why didn't you hock yourself to the eyeballs on property and acquire 800 properties since 1996, like the couple I met here recently (putatively worth about £120 million)?

I did 10 was enogh for me to handle.Why didnt 90% of the population not buy one?

Why did you plonk a miserable $30k in the stock market when you started Techtrader? Why not a hell of a lot more?

Fear?

Lack of foresight?

$30k was chosen for the public exercise as a figure that Joe Average would likely use for a margin loan.It was a figure agreed upon by those who followed the developement.Personally and its public knowledge I traded 3 variants of the method until July last.

Unable to predict the bull run?

I'm sure you have the intelligence to realise that its not about picking anything its ALL about placing yourself in the position to take advantage of OPPORTUNITY--------bullruns OR bear runs for that matter in a trading sense.
In a property sense owning one home keeps you up with the price spiral but at best gives you replacement value.2 or mare gives you that edge.

You've done OK, but I'll bet there are some here that could buy and sell you a few times over on a rainy Wednesday afternoon over a few tinnies.

I bet there is------pity they dont offer practical information more often to those who would benifit most.

Wayne Rather than continually attempting to shoot me down personally or cut me down a peg or two---why not get involved in constructive discussion on the issues being talked about?