Has trading worked out for you?

[Habakkuk]

Active trading. Only holding for a few days or so. Doing a few hundred trades per year.

Now that you have 2-3 years' worth of real trading results, how do those actual results compare with an Amibroker backtest done now over the same period, i.e. 2013-2015?

What I'm particularly interested in is partial fills as you use limit orders - do they have a significant impact? I'm worried about getting charged $20 brokerage for maybe only a few shares. Are partial fills frequent?

And do you tend to get better or worse results than the backtest?

 

[tech/a]

Now that you have 2-3 years' worth of real trading results, how do those actual results compare with an Amibroker backtest done now over the same period, i.e. 2013-2015?

What I'm particularly interested in is partial fills as you use limit orders - do they have a significant impact? I'm worried about getting charged $20 brokerage for maybe only a few shares. Are partial fills frequent?

And do you tend to get better or worse results than the backtest?

You'll only get one fee for filling your order.

 

[Habakkuk]

You'll only get one fee for filling your order.

I know. You'll also get charged full brokerage for a partial fill, e.g. you order 5000 shares and get only a few at the limit price. The rest of the order remains unfilled. Brokerage is the same.

 

[tech/a]

Cant say I have had that happen with IB when I traded shares.
If I wanted 50000 shares and it took 3 bites filling the one order I only
paid one brokerage.

 

[barney]

Cant say I have had that happen with IB when I traded shares.
If I wanted 50000 shares and it took 3 bites filling the one order I only
paid one brokerage.

Only one fee, but if trying to accumulate some illiquid Spec stock where the Spread is wide you can often get caught with a partial fill unless you pay the spread premium before the month is up. More nuisance value than anything .... a $20 Broker fee here and there won't have too much effect on the bottom line.

 

[Habakkuk]

Cant say I have had that happen with IB when I traded shares.
If I wanted 50000 shares and it took 3 bites filling the one order I only
paid one brokerage.

As you know, tech, I have virtually no real trading experience, but I have looked at live, dynamic data, the DOM and course of sales for some time. This is on the ASX.
Now let's put in a limit buy or sell order at $4.00 for 5000 shares. We're obviously not talking BHP or CBA, but some stock in the ASX100 or at least 200 with reasonable liquidity. Right now it would trade a few cents away.
Maybe it won't go to $4.00, so it costs me nothing. But if it does for a fleeting moment, and I score 1 or 2 shares, then zooms straight back the other way, I get charged $20 brokerage for trading $10 worth of shares.
This has never happened to you, but I see these low volume spikes all the time. It has happened to me once. I ordered 2000 shares at limit and got only 336. Inexperienced as I was and still am, I didn't go and amend my order to get the rest at market.
But an Amibroker backtest using limit orders will cheerfully give you a complete fill at $4.00, and an unrealistic, optimistic result.

That's what I'm asking Alter Ego about. I'm just curious about the impact over hundreds of trades.

 

[AlterEgo]

Now that you have 2-3 years' worth of real trading results, how do those actual results compare with an Amibroker backtest done now over the same period, i.e. 2013-2015?

My real world results have been a little better than a backtest over the same period. However, my backtesting was not using leverage, I have occasionally taken some discretionary trades in there as well, and I have been using a different position sizing formula for the last year and a half that I never wrote in to the system code.

Also, when coding a system you have to make certain assumptions, like regarding fills for example. When I coded the system, when making such assumptions, I always coded the "worst case" scenario.

What I'm particularly interested in is partial fills as you use limit orders - do they have a significant impact? I'm worried about getting charged $20 brokerage for maybe only a few shares. Are partial fills frequent?

Yes, I do get some partial fills occasionally, however that's more a problem with the lower liquidity stocks, it's not much of an issue for the larger companies (depending on how large an amount your trying to transact of course). However, the issue you speak of doesn't affect me, as with my broker (FP Markets) I have a "Premier" account with them, and as such I have no minimum brokerage, just a flat 0.08% per trade regardless of how few shares (CFD's) it is for, so if I got a fill for only 1 share of CBA, for example, I would only pay 7c in brokerage for the $86 share.

 

[AlterEgo]

But an Amibroker backtest using limit orders will cheerfully give you a complete fill at $4.00, and an unrealistic, optimistic result.

It depends on how you write the Amibroker code. As I said above, I always assumed the "worst case" in the code. So in the code, if placing a limit buy order I wrote that the low of the day must be below, not equal to, the limit buy price. So if the system places a limit buy order at $4.00, for the backtest I coded that it will not count as a fill unless the low of the day was $3.99 or less.

 

[Habakkuk]

Thanks, Alter Ego, that's exactly the information I was looking for.

About Amibroker coding, I never thought of including this obvious (now that you have explained it) condition.
And I didn't know that kind of "no-minimum-brokerage" Premier account existed.

To get back on-topic, trading hasn't worked out for me so far. I'm not exactly deep in the red, but only due to luck and very few trades.

 

[AlterEgo]

I didn't know that kind of "no-minimum-brokerage" Premier account existed.

You do need to maintain a minimum account balance of $50K with them to get this account though.

 

[minwa]

Left uni halfway to pursue trading. Did crappy jobs (below minimum cash in hand type) to fund my trading accounts. I was lucky to still be living at parents (was still 19) so did not have any real expenses while I honed my skills. Can't imagine how hard it would be for someone to get into this while being in salary & need to provide for his family.

Fast forward a few years I now trade for a living myself. Currently in talks with prop shops to see if it's for me. Don't need to go down that path though - doing well enough on my own.

Diversify your strategy/system is the best advice I can give. Everything have draw downs, but for all your system/strategy to be in prolonged draw down is rare. Critical if your income is majorly from trading.

Also test everything that you think might be of value. One of my strategy is based on a concept that many people on forums/internet say will not work. I held off testing it for a few years after reading all the cautions against it. When I came back to it years later and tried it, it netted money overall every year for past 3 years. I can literally make a thread about it and guarantee it will be dismissed. So do listen to guru's advices but try to challenge those views also, if they say it won't work it means you will make a lot of money if you make it work as most others won't be doing it. You're in a trading niche gold mine.

For retail trading to me it comes down to money management. Give a trader 20 ticks opportunities who masters the setups and you've now got a future wealthy speculator. Give a gambler 100 ticks opportunities, you've got another market donor.

 

[ThingyMajiggy]

Left uni halfway to pursue trading. Did crappy jobs (below minimum cash in hand type) to fund my trading accounts. I was lucky to still be living at parents (was still 19) so did not have any real expenses while I honed my skills. Can't imagine how hard it would be for someone to get into this while being in salary & need to provide for his family.

Fast forward a few years I now trade for a living myself. Currently in talks with prop shops to see if it's for me. Don't need to go down that path though - doing well enough on my own.

Diversify your strategy/system is the best advice I can give. Everything have draw downs, but for all your system/strategy to be in prolonged draw down is rare. Critical if your income is majorly from trading.

Also test everything that you think might be of value. One of my strategy is based on a concept that many people on forums/internet say will not work. I held off testing it for a few years after reading all the cautions against it. When I came back to it years later and tried it, it netted money overall every year for past 3 years. I can literally make a thread about it and guarantee it will be dismissed. So do listen to guru's advices but try to challenge those views also, if they say it won't work it means you will make a lot of money if you make it work as most others won't be doing it. You're in a trading niche gold mine.

For retail trading to me it comes down to money management. Give a trader 20 ticks opportunities who masters the setups and you've now got a future wealthy speculator. Give a gambler 100 ticks opportunities, you've got another market donor.

Good stuff minwa, thanks for sharing.

Keep them coming people

 

[barney]

L One of my strategy is based on a concept that many people on forums/internet say will not work. I held off testing it for a few years after reading all the cautions against it. When I came back to it years later and tried it, it netted money overall every year for past 3 years. I can literally make a thread about it and guarantee it will be dismissed.

I'm interested ...... and I'm not the dismissive type

 

[darkhorse70]

After 2 years of pursuing trading, a lot of ups and downs 2 weeks of live trading which ended in a loss of 1k, slowly but surely ive been succeeding.

Asf was really was the platform for my success ( i believe im on the road to be a professional trader). The site offered lots of serious critisism for my skewed views and helped me improve.

That plus the willing help of some experienced guys on this forum has helped me really opwn my eyes to trading... especially Canoz whose been mentoring me for the last few months.

Long story short, im currently in a trading program at a prop firm.

That is my biggest challenge so far.

Being with 9 other competitive people who are working to get your seat is no walk in the park. However i believe ill destory my competition and become a great trader.

If you believe and want it bad enough, nothing will stop youm

 

[VSntchr]

Long story short, im currently in a trading program at a prop firm.

Good stuff DH70. That's really good to hear that your progressing and working diligently on this. We have seen some samurai level traders on ASF that trade prop, but (as far as I can recall) we haven't really seen much from someone getting in on the developing stage. I for one would be very interested in hearing more about it as you go.

If you don't mind me asking; what markets have they got you trading? and are they really taking the sole best trader from a group of 10?

 

[darkhorse70]

Thanks VS.

They pretty much focus on interest rates futures, i.e bond futures. Most prop firms in Australia that im aware of work like that.

We havent really done any sort of sim trading yet but we have a few stages to pass before we get there.

As for how many get it, on average its from 2-3 and that number usually reduces before the first year is up.

As far as it goes, i think i have the most xp but that doesnt really matter. It comes down to whose best fit for the role, i.e discipline, work ethic etc.

To be honest, it feels really elusive before you get into a firm. I mean, you feel like its a pipe dream but if you can dedicate 5-8 hours a day with proper guidance and learn enough such as level 2 data and expose your self to more active trading, i.e intra day, youre xp exponentially improves. Eventually being consistant is not a suprising thing and you start really understanding market action, spoof orders and manipulation.

As for sharing what they do etc, the industries are really secretive and strict in what can be talked about etc or else id go into more detail.

All i can say to the aspiring trader is find a good mentor, learn the basics And if you really want to do this for a living, you will make it.

 

[minwa]

Thanks VS.

They pretty much focus on interest rates futures, i.e bond futures. Most prop firms in Australia that im aware of work like that.

We havent really done any sort of sim trading yet but we have a few stages to pass before we get there.

As for how many get it, on average its from 2-3 and that number usually reduces before the first year is up.

As far as it goes, i think i have the most xp but that doesnt really matter. It comes down to whose best fit for the role, i.e discipline, work ethic etc.

To be honest, it feels really elusive before you get into a firm. I mean, you feel like its a pipe dream but if you can dedicate 5-8 hours a day with proper guidance and learn enough such as level 2 data and expose your self to more active trading, i.e intra day, youre xp exponentially improves.

As for sharing what they do etc, the industries are really secretive and strict in what can be talked about etc.

All i can say to the aspiring trader is find a good mentor, learn the basics And if you really want to do this for a living, you will make it.

Sounds like Aliom to me ?

Great stuff, even if you do not make it I'm sure you'll learn lots that you can take away. I'm sure many including myself will appreciate it if you make a thread about your experience !

 

[darkhorse70]

Hey Minwa, I havent really been notified on what is acceptable and what isnt.

However once/if i get clarity on the situation and if i progress to the next stage where I can help with a thread like some od the other guys then ill do that.

As you said minwa, regardless of the outcome its a really big thing to have the chance to be able to go through the program. To be able to dig through the minds of really seasoned prop traders and ask them about all kinds of stuff not to mention get a better understanding of trade planning/risk control etc is priceless.

 

[skc]

Long story short, im currently in a trading program at a prop firm.

That is my biggest challenge so far.

Being with 9 other competitive people who are working to get your seat is no walk in the park. However i believe ill destory my competition and become a great trader.

Wow. Darkhorse I had no idea. Well done. To be totally honest, when you first joined the forum you sound like another carefree teenager who liked to dream but not necessarily liked to work towards the dream. But it's apparent that is totally the wrong impression, judging by how tremendously, and quickly you have grown. Even your posting is now way more polished, thoughtful and mature.

All the best with the program. It will be life changing regardless of how it works out. Do your best and continue your journey.

Trading is the same for me, I have been working on it for a long time now, trying to be consistent etc. Trying to save up some funds and get going on my live account, doing well on sim(+60K last month trading DAX using up to 4 lots) but just can't seems like such an uphill battle to get ahead in fund my live account, something always comes up that dips into the savings I guess you all know the feeling!

ThingMajiggy... I haven't replied to your thread earlier, but I am one of those ASF users who joined knowing nothing in Aug 2008 and ended up being a prop trader. It took me around 6 months to learn that I know nothing, another 6 months to find a profitable niche, then the profits start to come and 2 years after I started, I became quite consistent. The year after that I started to size up meaningfully (even got money from family to trade with). It was 4 years after I started I joined as an experienced trader with a prop shop by showing them my trading stats. And it's been almost 3 years now as a prop trader. So yes, it's very much possible.

The average ASF member will never be a trader, and on average people who tried trading fail. But you can't look at the statistics of the outcome independently. How hard did the average person try? Did that average person have the right attitude and create the right environment to succeed? Nothing is guaranteed but if you don't do that your odds of success is greatly diminished.

I see that you joined the forum in Nov 2007. I think you said you are 26 so you joined as an 18 year old. Are you telling us that, you have not been able to save enough money to fund your own live account over 8 years?! How much do you need to trade 1 DAX contract? $15-20k margin? I am trying not to pre-judge but you'd need a lot of bad luck or restricting circumstances if that's what stopping you from pursuing your dream. For 8 years!

Let me leave you with a quote by someone who inspired me today.

If you believe and want it bad enough, nothing will stop you

 

[McLovin]

Wow. Darkhorse I had no idea. Well done. To be totally honest, when you first joined the forum you sound like another carefree teenager who liked to dream but not necessarily liked to work towards the dream. But it's apparent that is totally the wrong impression, judging by how tremendously, and quickly you have grown. Even your posting is now way more polished, thoughtful and mature.

All the best with the program. It will be life changing regardless of how it works out. Do your best and continue your journey.

Holy cr@p. I had to double check this was the same poster who wanted to open an "underground fund" last year. Well done DH. I'm amazed.