GTP - Great Southern Plantations

[Investor1]

Hi All,

Will not write too much just now, I have a lot to say for the future. But I thank turbo23 for acknowledging my comments.

We must all remember GTP started the process when its share price was significantly higher. The offer made sense, if the world equity markets did not tank during this period, its shares probably would not be $0.17 at the time of the vote. I have no doubt GTP did not expect that when it revised the offer to have a $0.50 floor. tell me seriously how many company's shares had a good October 2008, the time of the revised offer.

I bought some Macquarie Office Trust today at $0.20. It has probably fallen comparable to GTP over the last 18 months. All these NO voters, please tell me a stock worth picking. I wonder if any of you ever had some Macquarie related stock. Tell me a good management today.

Convince everyone that you can make good calls.

By the way, I looked at the World Bank website today. They see the world price of timber falling significantly over the next 12 months and staying lower for a few years. When selling wood internationally, consistency of supply can help secure a better price. Schemes going alone probably cannot offer that.

Regarding finding an alternative forestry manager, I suspect ITC want to look after their clients first, Timercorp maybe will sell their MIS investor's wood first, FEA: what do you think? Gunns may buy your wood once their mill is in place.

I still think it makes more sense buying out GTP. I actually think their assets are worth more than their debt. Their market cap is low and you can always sack the management.

 

[drsmith]

I bought some Macquarie Office Trust today at $0.20. It has probably fallen comparable to GTP over the last 18 months.

Mac. Office pitched it's recent capital raising at a similar level to the share price and it was not forced on any of it's unitholders. Beyond that there are specific threads for discussion on Macquarie and it's satellite funds.

 

[SDE]

We must all remember GTP started the process when its share price was significantly higher. The offer made sense, if the world equity markets did not tank during this period, its shares probably would not be $0.17 at the time of the vote.

Thanks for your correction Investor1.

However, GTP's price decline is not solely related to world equity markets tanking. GTP's current value is the sum of its future cashflows discounted back to today's dollars. As GTP's cashflows in the foreseeable future are likely to be negative, today's price may seem a little generous.

At 17 cps, this offer was never fair and did not make sense for MIS investors.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Hi All,

Tell me a good management today.

I like the management of Washington Soul Pattinson (SOL). They have not suffered anything like the volatility of GTP. They sold a big coal interest in QLD to BHP Billiton last year and now have huge cash reserves waiting to invest in failing companies assets.

 

[ThePav]

Hi All,
Convince everyone that you can make good calls.

I believe voting NO was a good call and will pay dividend going forward.

You have put forward many arguements that are superficial and loaded with assumptions and predictions. This offer was a little more black and white than the picture you have been painting.

Great Southern told me my trees investment was going to be a great investment. But they new full well it wasn't a good investment. They had started to commence harvesting of the older projects by then and had good estimates of a number of other projects heading towards harvesting. Now they are trying to sell me another story and I start to wonder what is it that they are not telling me? What is hidden behind the curtain? They want to rob me again that's what I think. The MIS investors don't know any better, give the financial planners a few back handers and they'll do whatever they tell them. It's a greedy world and Great Southern are the epiphany of this greed.

 

[tinytim]

Hi all,

In deciding what to do about the very average performance of management with this company to say the least, and seeing my cattle investment go down the plug hole, I called ASIC to find the best course of action.

May I kindly suggest that any of you with complaints officially first complain to Great Southern Ltd and GSMAL (and we all know that will get you absolutely nothing), and then upon not receiving satisfactory responses, complain directly to ASIC.

My sources within ASIC tell me that if enough complaints are received, they WILL investigate breach of ethical duties including absence of appropriate disclosure and accuracy of the 75% majority votes for the cattle projects. 'Serious breach of directors' duties', and 'misleading conduct' are phrases that are appropriate.

Additionally, I have evidence of the companies propaganda from not more than 12 months ago maintaining the likelihood of up to 25% IRR.
The representation of this type of return by management when they are aware that this will not be the case, is to say the least, a serious breach of directors' responsibilities, and extremely misleading in every case.

Thoughts?

 

[ThePav]

Hi TinyTim,

I think you are onto something. The clear angle would be misrepresentation but this does need evidence. If you or anyone has documentation from Great Southern or one of its employees representing a return that is not achieveable then I'd suggest that you send it through to Dennis and Co plus ASIC. This is a clear breach.

I'd also suggest that the original letter that appeared to go to the cattle project investors suggesting a payout 4 times higher was definitely misleading and could have potentially altered the final vote. I'd be sending this to Dennis and Co and ASIC as well. If one voter thought they were going to get the original figure that was sent out and voted yes based on this thought, this could determined if the 75% was achieved or not. The 75% may have been achieved under false pretence. I think ASIC should require Great Southern to conduct another poll for the two cattle projects with voting information to be presented more clearly. God know how anyone could vote yes if it was presented clearly.

 

[Forenth]

For those who are interested, how to lodge a complaint with ASIC.

Go to www.asic.gov.au and click on 'contact us' for phone numbers etc. If you want to lodge a complaint online:

Go to www.asic.gov.au, top right of the page and 'how to complain'. Next page go down to Question 6 'make a formal complaint'. Company details when you're asked are:

GREAT SOUTHERN LIMITED
Company # 052046536
16 Parliament Place
6005
Australia (obviously)
Ph 08 93209700
Fax 08 93219288

Good luck to all those affected.

 

[wooduk]

For those who are interested, how to lodge a complaint with ASIC.

Go to www.asic.gov.au and click on 'contact us' for phone numbers etc. If you want to lodge a complaint online:

Go to www.asic.gov.au, top right of the page and 'how to complain'. Next page go down to Question 6 'make a formal complaint'. Company details when you're asked are:

GREAT SOUTHERN LIMITED
Company # 052046536
16 Parliament Place
6005
Australia (obviously)
Ph 08 93209700
Fax 08 93219288

Good luck to all those affected.

Sorry forenth
I hate to say it,if you believe that the institution that you are being ripped off by will be investigated as what you are hoping then look at the pedigree of the directors of gtp
x-bankers,connections as x-asic employee,you would have to be niave to believe that asic would be the elliot ness(untouchables fame) and really drill the bull dust that has gas lighted all of us.
Most minnows that invested in gtp have taken their first step and that was to vote this vile proposal to the rubbish bin, investigation and speculation on the aussie stock forum and the insightful comments from contributors has given me to re-think what else can or should be done as gtp as far as I am concerned is on borrrrrriiiiiiidd time and I for myself think asic will do squat

All this anger needs to be channelled so as an outcome that builds on yours and mine vote does not get lost in the etherel of time.


Affirmative action needs to be addressed byi nvestors and I mean all investors,every investor is threatened at losing their money if you have not lost the IRR rate or the DCF or the CPI plus the compounding of your investment then it has not kept up with inflation

To emphasise the situation,to rate our banks as the best in the top 100 in the world,and the biggest CBA is now trading $23 ps .what does that say for for gtp

What it was and what it is now is acrumbling pile of saw dust

Which reminds me Who was the legal mob that sent that letter to threaten me if I TOOK legal action ?

 

[wooduk]

Watchdog barking up wrong tree
You could never accuse our corporate regulator of acting in haste.

Sydney Morning Herald - 15th Jan 2009

You could never accuse our corporate regulator of acting in haste.

A year after it became obvious to all and sundry that short selling rules were being seriously flouted, the Australian Securities and Investments Commission finally has cranked itself into action.

Curiously, though, it has steered clear of any decisive action, other than banning short selling outright to begin with and now ludicrously limiting the ban to financial stocks.

Instead, it has focused on what is known in financial circles as "rumourtrage" - spreading rumours that would likely affect the share price of a public company and then trading on that. Effectively, it is a form of insider trading except that the information may be false.

Again, the corporate watchdog wins no prize for speed. Your columnist first raised this as an issue on February 21 last year after the then Babcock & Brown boss, Phil Green, thundered on about false rumours being spread about his company's finances. As it turns out, the rumours weren't so false at all.

Now we have the situation where ASIC has trained its guns on journalists, one from this newspaper and one from The Australian.

One reportedly is under review for writing a column suggesting James Packer may be considering selling his remaining stake in Consolidated Media, an item that saw its share price drop 2c. The other apparently is under investigation for writing that Macquarie Group may have difficulty refinancing a portion of its huge debts "at a decent price." It was written the day after Lehmann Brothers collapsed, when the share prices of all investment banks were under pressure and debt markets were frozen.

You don't have to be a detective to deduce the investigations probably were instigated as a result of complaints from the Packer camp and Macquarie.

How ironic then that both outfits have been at the forefront of media manipulation for years, when they were spreading "positive" rumours about themselves.

During the boom, Macquarie turned the selective "leak" of its deals into an art form. Compliant journalists were rewarded with news of the latest billion-dollar deals, a day before the official announcement. These were duly written up in glowing terms as "exclusive" stories.

Often they weren't deals at all but merely proposals and the leaks were designed to massage opinion in the business world.

The bank never complained, never issued any rebuttals and certainly never referred any of the "leaks" to ASIC.

The Packer group of companies was equally adept at promoting itself through the business media, whether it was PBL's latest casino deal or a play by another part of the group.

Again, neither ASIC nor the Australian Securities Exchange ever queried how the media got hold of this "information", which clearly was price sensitive and clearly beneficial to the companies involved.

Macquarie's business model is in tatters. Its share price is just a third of its peak and there are no deals to be done apart from internal reshuffling of assets.

The Packer-controlled Crown similarly has discovered casinos aren't the cash cows they appeared to be during the boom with some of its recent offshore purchases written down to zero.

Both Macquarie and Crown are under pressure. Their power to manipulate the press has been diminished because the news at the moment is almost all bad.

For the past year as global markets were in meltdown, ASIC was nowhere to be seen. Its response to the manipulation of markets via undisclosed short selling - Macquarie as an investment bank was heavily involved in the practice - was to issue a warning in March. Then nothing.

Apparently it also is looking at rumours spread about Challenger, another Packer-controlled company, and Babcock & Brown.

B&B is teetering on the verge of receivership. Rumours didn't cause that. The company was an overgeared bull market comet that simply burnt itself out.

If the regulator wants to look at anything about B&B, perhaps it should investigate Phil Green's claims last year that the company would make $750 million profit. That one was a tad wide of the mark.


This is an article that was printed recently in the fairfax press,and it confirms my opinion what ASIC is S++T

The end game is legal conflict ,one that was mentioned was Denny and co I think -noot sure but Idare say that after the outrageous rip on the cattle investors,-by the way I have no interest in the cattle that existed.

as the previous contributors have indicated we are now in a crystalising
state taking stock --------and not GTP stock

 

[turbo23]

That is extremely sad Woody.....
by the sound of that it doesn`t it matter how many complain ...but who complains ....(so thats what it take for these guys to take action)
Hope James has got some trees...or better yet cattle.After all he`d need a tax break wouldn`t he .(laugh laugh laugh)(Not that they could nor would do a hell of alot)
(always thought that some of the speeding tickets they issued were total clap(disgrace)... as well as some they didn`t)....Might change my name by deed poll ...You think that will work?
God i wish i was rich !

t23
ps ...was a fact I`v`1...no acknowlegement needed... but thanks

 

[Forenth]

As already said, it would appear who complains is more important than how many complain. In November I heard from somewhere (can't recall where) that there had already been around 800 complaints to ASIC. By now that number must be well over 1000.

I wonder how anyone, let alone the majority, who invested in cattle could vote yes to a scheme that returns only 20% of an investment only 18 months old and leaves you to hope the stockmarket improves for you to make anything on the deal?

I can only speculate that the first letter from GTP with the erroneous figures and the threats of substantial fees in the future caused many to give up on their investment. GTP seem to like threats, as indicated by their threat to take legal action against anyone who tries to take action against them.

Anyhow, I would never invest with them again and who else would? Not when ASIC seems to approve of creating the precedent of GTP trying to seize any investment they like. They're supposed to be an investment manager not take it and run. These are all old arguments now, all the no voters (and I suspect a few of the yes ones too) know the immorality of this whole situation even if ASIC have decided to legalise it.

Don't just write to ASIC, write to the media and current affairs shows as well.

 

[Fatcat]

I'm a cattle holder in this pitiful excuse of a company. Any idea what the time frame is on receiving my shares? ie how soon do I have to wait until I can sell up and take my hit?

Cheers

 

[wooduk]

I'm a cattle holder in this pitiful excuse of a company. Any idea what the time frame is on receiving my shares? ie how soon do I have to wait until I can sell up and take my hit?

Cheers

individual offer closing date --29/01/09

start of asx trading of gsl shares issued to scheme----04/02/09

start of asx trading of gsl shares on individual offer---13/02/09

 

[tinytim]

As sad as it is... i think the reality is - ASIC will do nothing. UNLESS... The media can get involved... Anyone with media connections? Or government connections? If Rudd were to publicly say something about this, and force ASIC's hand to investigate - and the media were involved, maybe we would see a resolution. Unfortunately, I don't like our chances... I guess the idea of 'taking the hit' is probably the best that can be done... Screwed if you owe money to Great Southern Finance Pty Ltd

 

[tinytim]

Check out the propoganda... This is evidence of the ridiculous promises... Published Mar 07.

So - where did the Financial Advisors get their literature? Any of you Financial Planners/ Financial Advisors that have been duped by this saga? Anyone got any information/propoganda from GSL that people can use as evidence of their clearly massively overstated potential internal rates of return?

"
The Great Southern 2007 Beef Cattle Project presents investors with the opportunity to breed, own and sell beef cattle and take part in this well established Australian industry. Investors
will participate by leasing droves of breeding cows, to be managed by our specialist operators. Investors can expect excellent taxation benefits and the potential for a sound medium
term income from the sale of cattle. Investments are expected to be 100% tax deductible over the first two years of the Project (80% in 2006, 20% in 2007).
The Project
Invest as little as two droves ($5,000 each + GST). Each drove will comprise four breeding cows. Investors are expected to receive annual returns from their proportionate share of
proceeds from the sale of progeny from their droves for 6 years, after year 2.
Features
$5,500 per drove (minimum 2)
IRR up to 24.3%*
Income from year 2
6 year project term
100% tax deductibility
Expected 100% cattle sales contracted
Flexible finance including interest free options and comprehensive insurance available
Closes 15th June 2007
"

 

[drsmith]

Flexible finance including interest free options and comprehensive insurance available

For those who have borrowed to invest in the cattle schemes using Great Gouthern's finance option, is the loan from Great southern itself or from a third party financier such as a bank ?

This is perhaps a long shot but if any loan is with Great Southern it may be worth investigating whether the change in the nature of the investment offers a legal way out of the loan.

 

[Jackob]

I think it's important for every one - every investor and every shareholder - to lodge a complaint at ASIC and/or authorities at even higher levels.

The value of a cattle investment has reduced from $5000 to $500 in 18 months. Shares issued at $1+, $2+, $3+ and $4+ with "shareholders share purchase programs" have all reduced to 18c.

$Billions of shareholders and investors funds have gone!

This company's "business" is absolutely a rort from beginning.

 

[Fatcat]

I think it's important for every one - every investor and every shareholder - to lodge a complaint at ASIC and/or authorities at even higher levels.

The value of a cattle investment has reduced from $5000 to $500 in 18 months. Shares issued at $1+, $2+, $3+ and $4+ with "shareholders share purchase programs" have all reduced to 18c.

$Billions of shareholders and investors funds have gone!

This company's "business" is absolutely a rort from beginning.

Followed your advice and just lodged a complaint with ASIC. It'll more than likely do little or no good, but I feel better for the exercise!

 

[wooduk]

Project TTrain wreck Gobble dee gook
In kpmg report 2003 plantation project,a forestry report was attached.

The forest report was commenting on the reasonableness of the input in the financial model prepared by great southern.

The forester reviewed great southerns model,in those models GTP predicted yeilds at 10 years for the districts.

Albany- 152.7m3/ha----164.4m3/ha

golden triangle- 221m3/ha-----148m3/ha

Qlnd- 108m3/ha----103.3m3/ha

Yet the same forestry expert notes the PDS for the 2003 that the management is predicting at LEAST 250m3/ha

IFTHAT IS THE CASE WHY IS THAT ?

1. No mention is made of the seven shortfalls in the KPMG report?

2. GSL waited until October the 7th 2008 to tell us the lots were now cactus

3.Is not the failure to disclose these abysmal results a breach of GSL continueous disclosure obligations?

4.Why was it that each time prospectus raising were being made,why were the investors not told?

5.Why did not GSL disclose why they did were not meeting expectations and at only made marginal at best?

6.Could not a participant in the project transformation,as well as shareholders have a case against GSP?