Global Warming - How Valid and Serious?

[numbercruncher]

Wont be long i imagine until kyoto members start placing import tarrifs on non members goods, after all we arnt going to deliver a free trade advantage to others are we, especially ones pillaging the enviroment.

 

[chops_a_must]

Also fastest growing economies are excluded from Kyoto.

Few years down the track, voters who lost jobs because of hasty signature will probably vote for Liberals to get the job back.

Oh... Like those manufacturing workers the libs refused to stand up for?

 

[Happy]

Lack of import tariffs killed their jobs, unless they could work for $1 a day or $10 a week

 

[--B--]

So, St Kev has bowed to "popular" public opinion and jumped in to sign Kyoto.

As Australia now seems destined to exceed its targets under kyoto by about 1 percent, we can all look forward to paying about 1.6bn in fines

Hooray??

Japan, Spain and Italy are all going to (surprise surprise) exceed their targets and will be required to pay a combined 33bn in fines. The vast majority of these fines will be passed on to taxpayers.

I can hear the greeny nutters cheering in the streets....

do fines "fix" the climate?

 

[Happy]

So, St Kev has bowed to "popular" public opinion and jumped in to sign Kyoto.

As Australia now seems destined to exceed its targets under kyoto by about 1 percent, we can all look forward to paying about 1.6bn in fines

Hooray??

Japan, Spain and Italy are all going to (surprise surprise) exceed their targets and will be required to pay a combined 33bn in fines. The vast majority of these fines will be passed on to taxpayers.

I can hear the greeny nutters cheering in the streets....

do fines "fix" the climate?

If correct, now we will have to send some more work offshore to lower the emission, raise taxes or both.

Hooray ??

 

[--B--]

If correct, now we will have to send some more work offshore to lower the emission, raise taxes or both.

Hooray ??

As ive stated, Spain, Italy and Japan are well over their targets and face a combined 33bn in fines which they will pass onto businesses and tax payers.

Japan, Italy and Spain face fines of as much as $33 billion combined for failing to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions as promised under the Kyoto treaty.

Spain will pass 40 percent of the cost for the extra emissions on to businesses, Secretary of State for Energy Ignasi Nieto told journalists in Madrid July 31. The rest will come from taxes.

In Italy, taxpayers will foot 75 percent of the bill for extra permits. ``Italy's behind, and we need to keep cutting emissions,'' said Environment Minister Alfonso Pecoraro Scanio on Sept. 13 in Rome.
Japanese taxpayers will pay for two-thirds of that nation's excess, New Carbon Finance estimated, based on the current sharing between state funding and industry.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=akEM_x0ximjk&refer=japan

i can see no doubting that australian consumers and tax payers will be forced to pick up our inevitable bill.

I guess the greeny nutters can sleep well knowing we've signed the big ticket kyoto protocol theyve been championing for years. Pensioners struggling every week to pay the bills better start saving their pennys...

 

[professor_frink]

On the subject of Kyoto, is there any evidence at this stage that suggest that it's actually working?

How on earth do they even measure it

 

[--B--]

On the subject of Kyoto, is there any evidence at this stage that suggest that it's actually working?

How on earth do they even measure it

well frink, going by the amount of countries who are not going to meet their target emissions, you could say its not exactly working.

The fact that these countries are then fined and subsequently pass these fines onto taxpayers, hardly constitutes an incentive to rigorously cut their emissions anyway.

unless fines "fix" the climate, id suggest that no - kyoto is not working.

This is just one reason why many people now agree that the kyoto protocol is fundamentally flawed... this didnt stop Kevvy signing up at the first second he had a chance though.... Mr popular and all that..

 

[Scuba]

I suppose you have an alternative to Kyoto --B--,? No doubt a really good one that John Dubbaya Howard shared with you before he was sacked.... ROFL

Mr popular will get to a point where his use by date will be up too, and so it goes.

Hopefully, his "tough decisions" will involve getting behind Australia's 'green' energy companies and encouraging some innovation rather than doing what J.H. did which was scare mongering about the costs of such energies and removing funding from such research...

 

[So_Cynical]

Also fastest growing economies are excluded from Kyoto.

Few years down the track, voters who lost jobs because of hasty signature will probably vote for Liberals to get the job back.

They are only excluded from the 1990 level requirement they are included in the CDM...the idea was that the big polluters that already had the development/money would pave the way technology wise....however without the Americans it didn't quite work out that way.

Kyoto creates more jobs than it ends

 

[So_Cynical]

So, St Kev has bowed to "popular" public opinion and jumped in to sign Kyoto.

As Australia now seems destined to exceed its targets under kyoto by about 1 percent, we can all look forward to paying about 1.6bn in fines

Hooray??

Well thats what happens when your govt makes a mistake, we now have 7 years to do what we could of easy done in 17 years....instead of talking about clean coal plants we would be building them.

 

[gilbo]

IMO the question that needs answering is not if the Earth is getting warmer (over a very short recent period of time it may well have, but it's been warmer before) but is it actually mankind that's doing it?

There are plenty of theories about CO2 emissions, CFC's, CO emissions, methane emissions etc all affecting climate, the ozone layer (remember that was shrinking not so long ago, last I heard it was getting bigger again) but they are really only theories - nothing is proven. And given the consequences either way, shouldn't we still be debating this?

It really is important to stop and do this. Just because a few computer simulations (programmed by people who don't even understand all of the variables that impact on climate) say we've only got 5mins to live doesn't mean that we can throw all intelligent debate out of the window and start running around declaring we're all doomed.

And if Man is not doing it then it very probably will just as quickly reverse itself again - don't forget it was only 30 years or so ago that the latest theory was we were heading for the next Ice Age just after the next advert break had finished. Never heard much of that again - bit like the ozone layer really.

 

[chops_a_must]

Never heard much of that again - bit like the ozone layer really.

Groan...

 

[2020hindsight]

So, St Kev has bowed to "popular" public opinion and jumped in to sign Kyoto. As Australia now seems destined to exceed its targets under kyoto by about 1 percent, we can all look forward to paying about 1.6bn in fines

Hooray??

Japan, Spain and Italy are all going to (surprise surprise) exceed their targets and will be required to pay a combined 33bn in fines. The vast majority of these fines will be passed on to taxpayers.

I can hear the greeny nutters cheering in the streets....

do fines "fix" the climate?

B,
Japan Spain etc will pay their fines with their tax dollars - you needn't worry your little selfish breast about it.

As for our contribution to the planetary effort - try going to Spain and/or Japan and bragging how clever we are / Howard was in avoiding the taxes they are paying. Maybe you'll be lucky and escape with some spittal in your eye - you'll have done a great job in reaffirming to those countries that Australia (worst co2e per capita other than opec) and USA are just selfish people who don't dserve to be included in polite society.

IMO the question that needs answering is not if the Earth is getting warmer (over a very short recent period of time it may well have, but it's been warmer before) but is it actually mankind that's doing it?

well whether or not you voted to ignore global warming or not (assuming you voted UNPROVEN) , either way, gilbo, it is you in the minority here.

Try listening to that youtube by David Attenborough a few posts back

 

[2020hindsight]

let em quantify the thing ... (only been in power for 36 hours )

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/04/2109482.htm?section=justin

Impact of Labor's climate policies to be quantified: Wong
Posted 3 hours 46 minutes ago

Climate Change Minister Penny Wong has asked her department to calculate the effect of new environmental policies on Australia's ability to meet its Kyoto target.

Current projections show Australia will exceed its greenhouse emissions target by 1 per cent.

Senator Wong says her department will look at how the commitments made by Labor during the election campaign will impact on those projections.

"We need to know what our policies, in particular our renewable energy target of 20 per cent by 2020, we need to know what effect that will have on Australia's emissions," she said.

"So I've asked for that work to be done so we can be clear what our projections are going forward."

meanwhile back at the science lab....

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/04/2109445.htm?section=justin

New approach to climate change research
Posted 4 hours 10 minutes ago
Updated 3 hours 56 minutes ago
The mysteries of climate change may be uncovered by the work of a new research centre incorporating the Bureau of Meteorology and the CSIRO.

The Centre for Australian Weather and Climate Research, being launched tomorrow in Canberra will provide a co-ordinated approach to weather and climate research.

Most of the 250 staff will be based in Hobart, Canberra and Melbourne, others will work out of Perth, Brisbane and Darwin.

The Centre's foundation director Chris Mitchell says weather and climate researchers from the Bureau and the CSIRO will work side-by-side.

"The Centre for Australian Weather and Climate Research will combine the vast climate expertise of the Bureau and CSIRO to become an important centre of research excellence," he said.

"Australia has been at the forefront of climate and weather research and the evolving science of Earth systems for many years.

The new joint approach provides a strong focus for climate research that will be absolutely critical for the future of Australia and the world," he said.

The science done at the Centre will be broader than climate change, also looking at ocean prediction, seasonal climate prediction, air quality, severe weather and water management.

The Centre's researchers will also work with the UK Met Office's high-powered computer-based weather and climate prediction program and adapt it to Australian conditions.

 

[robert toms]

I think it is best to defer to the expert consenus on global warming,not to the few skeptics.
Interesting what evidence people will accept and what they will not.Polls showed that 95% of people in the US believed that Saddam had WMD's.The evidence came from a most unreliable source ,but the majority believed it.
When the overwhelming majority of scientists from diverse countries are in unison,their views have credibility with me.
If anyone owned a share called Pacific Hydro you would know what the Howard governments attitude was to renewable energy,and it was that nothing would interfere with the supremacy of the coal industry.
Even if the global warming argument falls flat in the long run ,what is wrong with a new energy paradigm?
The fossil fuel paradigm is surely short term gain for the few and unsustainable...with a complete disregard for future generations.
Better to be safe than sorry on this one!

 

[Smurf1976]

Wont be long i imagine until kyoto members start placing import tarrifs on non members goods, after all we arnt going to deliver a free trade advantage to others are we, especially ones pillaging the enviroment.

Totally agreed we're headed for tariffs and other trade-limiting measures though I think it will happen with or without Kyoto.

And that raises a lot of questions. For example, how does a steelworks in Europe differentiate ferro manganese from TEMCO (only Aust producer) with that from some non-Kyoto producer? It's just a bulk commodity after all. Same with aluminium, zinc and all the rest.

Are we about to see a non-Kyoto price for aluminium and a Kyoto price that is different? Or outright tariffs on the non-Kyoto product?

 

[numbercruncher]

Another disturbing piece of Information from John Dubbya Howards reign ...

Claim UN was misled on Aust emissions Figures out 'by up to 20pc'


The Howard government misled the United Nations over the scale of its efforts to tackle climate change and meet its Kyoto emission reduction targets, according to senior government sources.
They claim Australia's greenhouse emissions were "considerably higher" than those quoted in a 2005 report to the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change, and the discrepancy may have been as high as 20 per cent.
Sources say the scale and success of research efforts were also over-stated in the report, with the government boasting of its support for renewable energy programs that were struggling to continue because of federal funding cuts.
The federal government's claims of support for climate change research also came at a time when several senior CSIRO scientists were rebuked and subsequently forced out of their jobs by government pressure for publicly discussing climate change issues.

http://canberra.yourguide.com.au/news/local/general/claim-un-was-misled-on-aust-emissions-figures-out-by-up-to-20pc/1097788.html

The histroy books are going to judge these guys really really harshly.

 

[Smurf1976]

But will the Greens and Labor actually support renewable energy development when it comes to the crunch?

If we're going to do it on a big enough scale to comply with Kyoto in the long term then we need more than a few solar HWS and flouro lights.

I don't think I'm being overly cynical here, just looking at the track record of the Greens where they began, in Tasmania.

They once supported Basslink, wind farms and burning wood for fuel. All of which were opposed the moment someone tried to actually develop them. They opposed gas, then supported it, then opposed it, then backed a hastily built gas-fired power plant (no environmental studies etc, none whatsoever) when they realised that they'd been wrong for the past 25 years and there actually wasn't a surplus of power after all.

And Smurf will never miss the irony in the Greens' nice little bit about "clean, green hydro-electricity". Greens saying anything good about hydro power is like the Liberals jumping into bed with the unions. It just doesn't fit with their very basis and I don't believe it's anything more than words that will reverse the moment someone tries to build even the smallest weir.

I'm not anti-Green. But I'm truly fed up with their constant changing of position on these issues. They say they support it but then organise protests the moment someone tries to build it. They only support things they know aren't viable, or at least aren't likely to be built.

IMO climate change is the priority. I've thought that since around 1990. Wind farms can be dismantled and the scenery comes back. Dams can be drained and the valley almost completely restored (a point publicly acknowledged by Bob Brown himself). All the other scenic things are likewise ultimately restorable. But not so with the climate and fossil fuel depletion - hence my priority on getting out of fossils and just accept the downsides of renewables.

 

[spooly74]

There are plenty of theories about CO2 emissions, CFC's, CO emissions, methane emissions etc all affecting climate, the ozone layer (remember that was shrinking not so long ago, last I heard it was getting bigger again) but they are really only theories - nothing is proven. And given the consequences either way, shouldn't we still be debating this?

CFCs were proven to harm the ozone layer back in the early 80s.
Now though, most governments have signed the Montreal Protocol to phase out CFCs and replace them with HCFCs and HCFs, unfortunately they are not ideal either and the Protocol wants to phase them out eventually too.

Scientists are hopeful of seeing the ozone layer start to close sometime in the 2020s (it currently grows in spring and shrinks in summer), whether or not the planet cools down after that, who knows? Either way we`ll adapt.