Global Warming - How Valid and Serious?

[chops_a_must]

would anyone like to comment on the above?

How many scientists does that panel have? 1800 or something?

There were dissenting voices the last time anything like this was occurring. And in all cases if I remember rightly, they were on the pay roll of, or had been soon before, of DuPont.

 

[2020hindsight]

i have no problem with measures to reduce pollution.

-B-
In summary...
Since you support measures to reduce pollution, and you empathise with lill critters that are being wiped out daily - then on behalf of those critters, and (needless to say) the people of the third world and the climatic refugees of the future - Tuvalu etc -

I thank you for your support.
ava good one.

 

[numbercruncher]

Its not even woth debating with the Deniers anymore as their numbers are so small and insignificant, you just need to worry about Governments like US and China that are unwilling to act for fear of economic contraction. Most Governments accept it, just cant work out how to deal with it, lets hope they dont hum and ho for too long.

 

[2020hindsight]

worry about Governments like US and China that are unwilling to act for fear of economic contraction

spot on !!! - that's the risk ! well said. ostricize the bastards who ignore it. - especially USA. - I notice Rudd put a dig in there in his Bali speech.

Im doing my bit as well, I get the mrs to mow the lawns with a pair of scissors

nc, your post from way back .. lol

You also mentioned the hydrogen fuel cell buses
I went for a ride on one in Perth a while back .. they call it the "ecobus / zero emissions"

www.dpi.wa.gov.au/ecobus

Specs read as follows:-
seats 59 people ( full size bus)
Ballard fule cell unit (> 250kW nett power)
range 200 - 300 km
lenth - 12m ,
weight - 18T
max weight of hydrogen 44kg (1890 litres)
hydrogen purity 99.999%

question ... When I tried to weigh out some hydrogen - the more I put on the scales, the lighter it got ??

 

[chops_a_must]

Its not even woth debating with the Deniers anymore as their numbers are so small and insignificant, you just need to worry about Governments like US and China that are unwilling to act for fear of economic contraction. Most Governments accept it, just cant work out how to deal with it, lets hope they dont hum and ho for too long.

Hmmm... Here is something that backs up what I've said previously. China actually doing more about climate change than most western countries, despite what the neigh sayers have been saying:

China beefs up clean energy drive

Print

Australian Broadcasting Corporation

Broadcast: 12/12/2007

Reporter: Stephen McDonnell

China's booming economy may be fuelled by coal but, the world's second biggest polluter, has already stepped up its effort to stop the planet's warming, last year spending more than $8 billion in renewable energy and official policies could see it transform itself into a clean energy superpower.

...

STEPHEN MCDONNELL: It's not very well publicised in the Western world, but China has imposed on itself huge environmental targets - well above what it's required to do under the Kyoto protocol.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s2117219.htm

 

[white_goodman]

Because the chemical signature of light revealed elevated levels of chlorine dioxide above Antartica unlike anywhere else on Earth.

In the late 80s, this was the first piece of evidence which lay the blame for the hole in the ozone on humankind. Nearly all atmospheric chlorine comes from CFCs.

so you are saying the populations of australia, new Zealand, South Africa and Argentina/Brazil cause that much pollution...then why dont they have the same problem in the northern hemisphere.... and dont say the wind travels the pollution down cos wind pattersn flow in a circular fashion to and from the equator with very little cross flow.

Those that beleive need to open your eyes, theirs an obvious economic advantage in going 'green' and those that are following this drivel blindly will be made fools of...it is in the interest of future generations to utilise all minerals and natural resources, not restricting them... by creating a better standard of living now it will ensure a better standard of living for the future.

 

[Wysiwyg]

China's booming economy may be fuelled by coal but, the world's second biggest polluter

What can we as individuals do in our everyday lives to reduce waste.Recycling most stuff is a good start.Frugal grocery shopping is another.Let the pollies handle the bigger picture i think.

 

[chops_a_must]

Those that beleive need to open your eyes, theirs an obvious economic advantage in going 'green' and those that are following this drivel blindly will be made fools of...it is in the interest of future generations to utilise all minerals and natural resources, not restricting them... by creating a better standard of living now it will ensure a better standard of living for the future.

You are kidding aren't you? CFC's have placed an enormous burden and cost structure on the economy over the last 20 years.

And secondly, if there is an economic advantage in going green, then why aren't we?!!! That's what the free market is all about!!

 

[spooly74]

so you are saying the populations of australia, new Zealand, South Africa and Argentina/Brazil cause that much pollution...then why dont they have the same problem in the northern hemisphere.... and dont say the wind travels the pollution down cos wind pattersn flow in a circular fashion to and from the equator with very little cross flow.

Those that beleive need to open your eyes, theirs an obvious economic advantage in going 'green' and those that are following this drivel blindly will be made fools of...it is in the interest of future generations to utilise all minerals and natural resources, not restricting them... by creating a better standard of living now it will ensure a better standard of living for the future.

The hole in the ozone layer is not drivel and like i said has been proven to be caused by CFCs.

Because of the extreme cold of the South Polar region, which is much colder than even the North Pole, an unusual kind of cloud forms in the stratosphere.

Google polar stratospheric clouds ..... thats enough drivel from me, and btw I was only referring to your comment regarding the ozone layer.

 

[white_goodman]

You are kidding aren't you? CFC's have placed an enormous burden and cost structure on the economy over the last 20 years.

And secondly, if there is an economic advantage in going green, then why aren't we?!!! That's what the free market is all about!!

u misunderstand.. economic advantage for a select few through profit, not the consumer..and the propoganda is fueling such profits...

and also to the CFC's never said they werent a problem, tho there is evidence that many cfc's are heavy gases that are sunk into the soil, im jsut saying why is their such a massive ozone issue in the southern hemisphere when the northern hemisphere is by far the biggest polluters... unless those damn fijians have been consuming vast quantities of fossil fuels

 

[chops_a_must]

u misunderstand.. economic advantage for a select few through profit, not the consumer..

Yeah... and how is that any different from now?

 

[2020hindsight]

History is being made as we speak folks ...

ray for the good guys - rayyyyy
boo for the bad guys - boooooo


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/13/2118368.htm

EU, US deadlocked at climate change talks
By environment reporter Sarah Clarke

Posted 2 hours 19 minutes ago
The European Union (EU) and the United States remain deadlocked over a key part of the text in the United Nations climate declaration.

On the plenary floor, politicians continue to deliver their national statements but behind closed doors the US is lobbying countries to reject key text that calls for developed nations to commit to emission cuts of up to 40 per cent by 2020.

The EU favours the text. But the United States is adamant specific figures should not be included.

The UN says it wants a mandate that sets up talks for a new climate deal beyond 2012.

With the US and Europe showing no signs of compromise, this meeting is expected to continue until Saturday.

Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd says a final Bali mandate must be agreed on at the meeting.

Australia is waiting for the findings of an economics report before it declares its policy on interim targets.

But Mr Rudd says countries must agree on a Bali road map that sets up a new international climate deal when the Kyoto Protocol expires.

"I'd be very concerned if negotiations meant that we had any states indicating they would walk away from the process," he said.

"What I have instructed our negotiators to do is to spare no effort in trying to bridge the gap between developed countries and between developed and developing countries to make sure we have a robust mandate going forward."

 

[2020hindsight]

hey -B- here's another scientist to deny global warming

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Singer

Siegfried Frederick Singer (born September 27, 1924 in Vienna) is an American electrical engineer and physicist. He is best known as President and founder (in 1990) of the Science & Environmental Policy Project, which disputes the prevailing scientific views of climate change, ozone depletion, and secondhand smoke[1] and is science advisor to the conservative journal NewsMax.

trouble is he is (or has been) an expert in nearly everything over the years lol..

including the health risks of smoking

Singer is also skeptical about the connection between CFCs and ozone depletion,

between UV-B radiation and melanoma[2][3][4][5][6]

and between second hand smoke and lung cancer.[7][8][9]

Singer has also worked with organizations with similar views, such as the Independent Institute,[10] the American Council on Science and Health, Frontiers of Freedom, the Marshall Institute, and the National Center for Policy Analysis.[11]

Singer is Professor Emeritus of environmental science at the University of Virginia.[12]

Fred Singer "The Denial Machine" Clip

This some clips of global warming denier Dr. S Fred Singer in the CBC Fifth Estate's Denial Industry documentary

He says that the temperature 1000 years ago was hotter - he is wrong! plain wrong. Furthermore, the graph of temperature vs time is heading uphill "like an unprecedentally / unprecedently ? homesick angel" as they say.

PS - never play poker with this bloke - he could bluff you out of a royal routine flush with a pair of deuces

 

[2020hindsight]

here's another youtube worth watching ..

Global Warming: junk science vs. real science

This is a short video I made that compares the credentials of climate change "skeptic" and practicing, well published scientist that says climate change is happening and humans are to blame. It's very amatuer production, but I hope it makes the point clear that many of the people who say climate change is not happening are far from authorities in the area of climate change science

 

[white_goodman]

to be honest im more worried about global cooling atm well atleast for my lifetime

 

[spooly74]

why is their such a massive ozone issue in the southern hemisphere when the northern hemisphere is by far the biggest polluters... unless those damn fijians have been consuming vast quantities of fossil fuels

Its not that all the CFCs just gathered around the Antartic or that they were blown down there.....they are everywhere!!

But

In most parts of the stratosphere, chlorine oxide (ClO) reacts with nitrogen dioxide (NO2), a gas that is found in the upper atmosphere. NO2 comes from natural sources but is also made by human activity. It is a radical, and often an environmental pollutant.
The product of the reaction between ClO and NO2 is ClONO2.

This prevents ClO from reacting with more ozone, slowing down ozone depletion. But it turns out that the polar stratospheric clouds high above Antarctica are a catalyst for a chemical reaction between ClONO2 and HCl. (HCl also exists as a gas in the high atmosphere.)

This reaction produces nitric acid and Cl2. Cl2 will then break down into chlorine radicals when it gets hit by the sun's intense UV radiation. The chlorine radicals can then once again wreak havoc on ozone.

To summarize, over most of the globe, ClO is prevented from destroying ozone by reacting with NO2 to form ClNO2. But over Antarctica, polar stratospheric clouds catalyze the breakdown of ClNO2 which in the end restarts the ozone destroying reaction cycle.

 

[2020hindsight]

to be honest im more worried about global cooling atm well atleast for my lifetime

How ironic you should mention that ..

there's every chance that Europe ( who incidentally are pushing the barrow on this) will indeed experience cooling

because the gulf stream (alias the "conveyor") could well cease to flow - and it's warming function would be lost , so that Europe would become cold while the rest of the world became hot

Why an Ice age may come to Britain within 20 yrs - Pt 1 of 4

 

[wayneL]

Let's suppose AGW is a given as most believe. WTF are we, as individuals going to do about it?

The vast majority are still increasing their energy consumption markedly and relying on some magic clean technology to save the earth. What a load of bollox.

Certainly there should be massive research and investment in this, but what about us, we the people?

How about massively reducing our energy usage as individuals? Wouldn't do much for our status anxiety, but it might ensure the survival of our children.

Not so long ago, we all survived quite adequately without the dishwasher, tumble dryer, ducted air conditioning and heating, 3m wide TVs, 4x4s to drive the kids the 150m to school, the ludicrous amount of packaging for even the most insignificant item, and the myriad of other power hungry BS appliances etc. Surely we can get by without all that tosh to save the freakin planet?

It's up to us folks! Stop looking to BS GW film makers driving around in limousines and living in mansions and pork barrelling politicians to save us... they won't.

Looking around me in the world, this makes me pessimistic. We have to change.

 

[Wysiwyg]

It`s a funny one you know, the planet would live a healthier (prolly longer) life span if human mind didn`t evolve, but since human is part of nature/life then i can only know that everything is in order . For better or worse.


ps ... overcome selfish desire

 

[billhill]

Looking around me in the world, this makes me pessimistic. We have to change.

Its easy to say that we have to change and many people are making a concious effort to do so. Alot of people don't give a s**t about their footprint as well. Therefore its alot easier to hand the task to the government and regulators because they actually have the power to make a significant difference.

I think you'll find that people are changing. The prominance of the GW issue in the election shows this. The population demanded better action on GW and they will now get it. Sure most people have changed only their ideals and opinions so far but you need that shift before behaviour will change.