Global Warming - How Valid and Serious?

[2020hindsight]

What do ASF members think of Global Warming, man's contribution thereto, and the urgency to act?.

Notes ..
GW = global warming
brd = beyond reasonable doubt

a) there is no reliable evidence that indicates global warming (GW)
b) there is GW, BUT the manmade contribution is UNPROVEN (brd),- and we should ignore it
c) ditto - but we should act to reduce greenhouse gas effects anyway
d) there is GW, the manmade contribution is PROVEN (brd), and the matter is not urgent
e) ditto but corrective global action is a matter of urgency

f) other, with comments as you wish ...

 

[2020hindsight]

Another way to ask this is :-

a) are you where Johnny Howard was 5 months ago?
b) are you where Johnny Howard was 4 months ago?
c) are you where Johnny Howard was 3 months ago?
d) are you where Johnny Howard was 2 months ago?
e) are you where Johnny Howard was 1 month ago?
f) are you where Johnny Howard is now?

 

[So_Cynical]

Voted e) ditto but corrective global action is a matter of urgency.

The world is almost all committed down the corrective road and thats
all positives...lots of new technology in development lots of new jobs.

Just in Aust theres probably about 15 or so Geothermal
explorers/developers that didn't exist 10 years ago.

Taking action is all good.

 

[2020hindsight]

I should have added

PLEASE READ AND VOTE CAREFULLY
Once you've voted, you are stuck with the world you selected
(at a bit longer than the next 3 years )

 

[2020hindsight]

f) comments :- deep down I think there's Anthropomorphic GW, but some
- politicians
- religious leaders (who can remain nameless) and
- the tea lady
assured me that there's no need to do anything

As these websites suggest...
Industry (and religion) are polluting science.

http://www.alternet.org/environment/38199
The Republicans and their business donors are stalling any meaningful attempts to reduce the damage of global warming

Industry is polluting science

In 1999, President Bush called carbon dioxide "one of four main pollutants" that needed "mandatory reduction targets for emissions." But he changed his position in a 2003 letter that claimed it "is not a 'pollutant' under the Clean Air Act." (Not surprisingly, the American Petroleum Institute agrees: "Fundamentally, we don't think carbon dioxide is a pollutant.")

Meanwhile, the EPA's own website defines carbon dioxide as "Industrial Air Pollution" that contributes to "global climate change."

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s2050357.htm

SIMON SANTOW: But when you see reports, your Eminence, that latest is a group of CSIRO scientists, where they are forecasting that if nothing is done about emissions by 2070, the temperature will rise by five degrees. You don't…

GEORGE PELL: I notice this is their latest change, I've studied this a little bit, and there's a whole history of differing estimates, 30 or 40 years ago, actually, some of the same scientists were warning us about the dangers of an ice age, so I take all these things with a grain of salt, they are matters for science and, as a layman, I study the scientific evidence rather than the press releases.

SIMON SANTOW: More than a dozen representatives from religions as diverse as evangelical Christianity to Hinduism and Buddhism don't mind using a press release to send a very different message about how seriously they take climate change.

They're demanding the Federal Government consider climate change a moral issue and show more leadership than they have up until now.

The Anglican Bishop of Canberra and Goulburn is George Browning.

GEORGE BROWNING: The Government's action is very inadequate and disappointing, but that's not surprising, because that's been their position over such a long period of time, they've been so reluctant even to admit that there is such a thing as climate change, let alone recognize that the human footprint has contributed towards it, they've only lately come that that position, and they are still only or setting aspirational targets, which is simply not good enough.

We actually do have to have real targets, and we have a real price on carbon.

SIMON SANTOW: George Pell says he supports investigating sources of 'clean' power, including wind as well as nuclear.

But he's adamant there's no need to rush into making significant changes.

GEORGE PELL: I think we need to go prudently and slowly, and not be driven by gusts of enthusiasm or particular political moves

 

[Nyden]

I should have added

PLEASE READ AND VOTE CAREFULLY
Once you've voted, you are stuck with the world you selected
(at a bit longer than the next 3 years )

Mate, your posts always entertain me! You're always so serious, yet your posts are entwined with boatloads of...well, I'm not sure - something reminiscent of sarcasm

I believe in global warming - but climate change has always been around, & I believe it's cyclical. Although the last major climate change may have been impacted by a major event (i.e. comet).

I believe that it's definitely important to play it safe than sorry though! And let's face it - I would certainly prefer cleaner air in our cities - bring on the electric cars! Ideally one that runs on Zinc, Copper, & Gold

 

[2020hindsight]

Mate, your posts always entertain me! You're always so serious, yet your posts are entwined with boatloads of...well, I'm not sure - something reminiscent of sarcasm

well m8 - we're bound to hear plenty about this in the next few weeks - so we're just doing our own collective research yes ?

sarcasm? not really . cynical? ,,,mmm

Like Roy Zimmerman ..
Am I a cynic?
No way, I'm a hyprocrite!
unlike cynics, hypocrites believe in something!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIwiPsgRrOs

perhaps you're cyclical, and I'm cynical?
perhaps .. ah suddup !!

 

[numbercruncher]

Provider navigation:
Summary | AAP | AFP | Reuters | Photos
Sunday December 2, 04:21 PM
Bali talks to seek global climate deal
About 190 nations begin talks on the Indonesian island of Bali on Monday to build on a "fragile understanding" that the fight against global warming needs to be expanded to all nations with a deal in 2009.

The Dec. 3-14 meeting, involving more than 10,000 delegates in a tightly guarded idyllic beach resort, will seek to launch negotiations meant to end with a UN new pact in two years' time including outsiders led by the United States and China.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/071202/2/154yc.html


Wow 10,000 delegates! Wish i could be a fly on the wall to hear which technolgies Governments most want to pursue

 

[explod]

An interesting book I picked up about 1998 "The sixth Extinction". Did not get much attention back then but was an interesting read. It infers of course that this episode is the sixth. The other five were various, a meteor a volcano, ice ages and warm ages. But we need to note that they wiped out at least 90% of living species in thier periods. The writer (who I do not remember) postulates that this time around the dynamics of overpopulation by humans who will be innovative enought to push things well beyond normal levels in which to survive will make it much worse. He also claims that the previous apart from two were much slower in the making.

Anyway not being an expert I can only go by my life experience. On the farm where I grew up my Dad religiously measured the rainfall. We used to get 35 inches in a normal year, it would go up of down 5 to 10 from there. I think in 52 we had over 40. We collected tadpoles every year and it seemed to be wet underfoot, mud up to the anckles from April to October.

Now back there today, no tadpoles, a good year is 7 to 8 inches, sometimes a lot less.

It was at a place called Hawkesdale West, in fact the political writer Tony Wright lived just two farms from us to the west. (the last bit is not relevant to the argument, just that Tony has been in the Age a lot these last few weeks)

I think the planet is buggerd and we do not have the will to turn off our life styles totally from the present ways or to ruduce human population by half in 20 years. But from my humble perspective even if we do this the planet is in for a torrid time before it even starts to heal itself.

 

[Happy]

Desalination is the only way to go to fix water problem

If food will be too scarce and too many people, hard not to imagine what will follow.

One of the reasons why we should not sponsor anybody and why we should not have too many kids irrespectively of lucrative baby bonus.

 

[numbercruncher]

Yes overpopulation is the main culprit/problem .....


Western nations as long as they go easy on Immigration will fair well in this regards because of our falling fertility rates, China also leads the way here.


Just economic growth doesnt seem to go hand in hand with falling populations and low carbon footprints! Governments will need to get there heads around this fixation with economic growth for our survival.

 

[Nyden]

Desalination is the only way to go to fix water problem

If food will be too scarce and too many people, hard not to imagine what will follow.

One of the reasons why we should not sponsor anybody and why we should not have too many kids irrespectively of lucrative baby bonus.

Hmmm, I'm conflicted about foreign child sponsorship. I agree that we have our own problems to resolve - but, well let's face it, even the worst cases of poverty here are most likely better than how they live in those countries. It's about showing support, over here we have options, they don't.

It's foolish to assume that people aren't going to be 'selfish' and want children - many couples want children not for monetary gain, but for the joy a child brings into the world. Unfortunately, that's a desire that's biologically hard-wired, and isn't going away :

 

[numbercruncher]

Desalination is the only way to go to fix water problem

If food will be too scarce and too many people, hard not to imagine what will follow.

One of the reasons why we should not sponsor anybody and why we should not have too many kids irrespectively of lucrative baby bonus.

I reckon that too, GM have a prototype Hydrogen car, Put Sea water in and it emits a trickle of fresh water, now if all cars on the road where these our roads would always be wet ( Be nice healthy plants along road sides everywhere) but all this water i reckon would evaporate form clouds and increase rainfall ! Might even help keep sea levels lower due to warming>melting ice caps? If hundreds of millions of cars used sea water ! Might put the oil barons out of Business thou!

 

[2020hindsight]

well I'm taking really seriously
like
I only use one burner on the bar-bq
and I take the steak off when it's really rare (you have to guess when the last "moo" is coming out of the meat)

and I used to take charcoal tablets for flatulence, but I've stopped taking them too - don't want to leave a carbon footprint anywhere, do we

and I've stopped using pencils because they have carbon in them - and also stoped using carbon paper in the invoice book - I just write it all out twice

 

[numbercruncher]

Im doing my bit as well, I get the mrs to mow the lawns with a pair of scissors

 

[2020hindsight]

Desalination is the only way to go to fix water problem

... we should not have too many kids irrespectively of lucrative baby bonus.

PS Gotta feeling that desalinators are pretty energy hungry beasts - might be ok for water, but yet more CO2 generated in the process ( hard to get ahead in this game, isn't it) .

Things are going to go "exponential" on us , even if we put massive effort into correcting things now and for the next 100 years.

Saw a doco with methane being released from the frozen wastes of Russia
- so it becomes a massive spiral of greenhouse gases causing melting arctic ice - causing methane etc (which is even worse than CO2) , causing more GW etc...

As for population explosions, the Chinese have voluntarily stopped themselves having 220 million kids since they went for the one child policy -

i.e. they have voluntarily stopped their people from increasing by the population of the USA !!

Now - what have the USA done ?? zilch but play semantics with the word "pollution" and whether CO2 and GW qualifies .

 

[nioka]

I reckon that too, GM have a prototype Hydrogen car, Put Sea water in and it emits a trickle of fresh water, now if all cars on the road where these our roads would always be wet ( Be nice healthy plants along road sides everywhere) but all this water i reckon would evaporate form clouds and increase rainfall ! Might even help keep sea levels lower due to warming>melting ice caps ? If hundreds of millions of cars used sea water ! Might put the oil barons out of Business thou!

Good one. Sea water= NaCl (salt) + H2O (water) + dissolved minerals and traces of gases. Hydrogen if it is burnt must come from the water leaving behind the minerals. How then can we get fresh water left behind? What happens to the salts. Does the car emit nitros oxide ( laughing gas). I remember a scam years ago where a chap drove up to a service station and asked to have the fuel tank filled with water. He then added a tablet and then ran the engine. Sold heaps of tablets to the operator then drove off. He forgot to tell them that the engine ran off another tank, not the one the water went into.

 

[numbercruncher]

Hi Nioka,

Not sure, im no engineer, just a average muppet lol.

Heres a video of GM Hydrogen fuel cell cars though ... They say the tech will be ready to go late 2009.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obs2tAq57j8&feature=related

Might be a business in selling/tanking sea water in tomorrows world hey!!

 

[Happy]

Seawater can be evaporated using sun, condensated droplets during the cool of night collected.

System doesn’t have to be connected to national grid, like solar panels.

 

[Scuba]

edited for brevity....... why we should not have too many kids irrespectively of lucrative baby bonus.

You obviously haven't bought decent shoes for toddlers lately! "lucrative baby bonus" "All pigs fed and ready to fly SIR!"

well I'm taking really seriously
like
I only use one burner on the bar-bq
and I take the steak off when it's really rare (you have to guess when the last "moo" is coming out of the meat)

and I used to take charcoal tablets for flatulence, but I've stopped taking them too - don't want to leave a carbon footprint anywhere,...edited for brevity...

ROFLing really hard at your post 2020!
"Rip it's horns off, shave it, wipe it's "R"ss, show it a photo of a lit match, and put it on the plate!"

Footprint or brown air alert, each way we lose...

However fatuous this post may be, I did vote as my vote counts, (e). The results of being wrong could be catastrophic for all our descendants, even life on Earth...