Global Cooling????

[Happy]

All valid points and if we take them on board, our 5,000-head community could make bigger difference.

I saw report that future stand-by power consumption will be reduced to about 1W, still a lot, but much less than 5, 10 or even 15 W as it is now.

We could consider walking or pedal power whenever possible, instead of any type of fuel powered option.

I saw cool to touch kettle, which in effect is more like a thermos, and speaking of thermos we can put rest of boiled water into thermos for later use.

Not to mention, that we can spend less free time using power consuming devices. Physical activities not only could aid our digestive system and circulation.

 

[Smurf1976]

Good to see AGL doing something progressive that doesn't involve dumping CO2 into the air or building up a stockpile of nuclear waste. Actually, you could literally drink the waste product in this case...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200609/s1743764.htm

 

[wayneL]

Interesting article on "the Greenhouse Effect"

http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/

 

[billhill]

Interesting Wayne. But i was a bit sceptical so did some research. found this on wikipedia. This is the guy who operates and runs your source above.

Steven Milloy is a columnist for Fox News and a paid advocate for Phillip Morris, R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company, and ExxonMobil.[1][2][3] From the 1990s until the end of 2005, he was an adjunct scholar at the libertarian Cato Institute.
Milloy runs the website Junkscience.com, which is dedicated to debunking what he alleges to be false claims regarding global warming, DDT, passive smoking and ozone depletion, among other topics.

 

[wayneL]

Interesting Wayne. But i was a bit sceptical so did some research. found this on wikipedia. This is the guy who operates and runs your source above.

Good work Billhill.

The fox connection blows a lot of credibility out for me.... and I violently disagree with his articles on DDT as well.

Notwithstanding that, what do people think of the science in the article?

 

[billhill]

Notwithstanding that, what do people think of the science in the article?

A lot of it is in conflict with the evidence i've read on global warming. Some of it may have its merits but i can't say as he does not reference his material.

I'm sure if he provided references for the statistics he's supplied they would probably be research papers funded by companies like exxon mobil. My feeling is it is mostly manipulated propaganda.

 

[ice]

A little background about JunkScience amongst others:

http://environment.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,,1875762,00.html

PS. The writer no doubt has his own prejudices, so I guess you need to make your own mind up.



ice

 

[wayneL]

A little background about JunkScience amongst others:

http://environment.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,,1875762,00.html

PS. The writer no doubt has his own prejudices, so I guess you need to make your own mind up.



ice

That is proving difficult to do. With competing scientific views, both with vested interests... and dealing with a chaotic system such as weather. I'm totally confused.

... and totally cynical about "science" too.

Thanks for the links

 

[Broadside]

That is proving difficult to do. With competing scientific views, both with vested interests... and dealing with a chaotic system such as weather. I'm totally confused.

... and totally cynical about "science" too.

Thanks for the links

***************************************************

interesting article.....

***************************************************

Royal Society tells Exxon: stop funding climate change denial

Read the letter in full here http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2006/09/19/LettertoNick.pdf

David Adam, environment correspondent
Wednesday September 20, 2006
The Guardian

The Royal Society is worried about climate change lobby groups, including those funded by Exxon.


Britain's leading scientists have challenged the US oil company ExxonMobil to stop funding groups that attempt to undermine the scientific consensus on climate change.

In an unprecedented step, the Royal Society, Britain's premier scientific academy, has written to the oil giant to demand that the company withdraws support for dozens of groups that have "misrepresented the science of climate change by outright denial of the evidence".

The scientists also strongly criticise the company's public statements on global warming, which they describe as "inaccurate and misleading".


In a letter earlier this month to Esso, the UK arm of ExxonMobil, the Royal Society cites its own survey which found that ExxonMobil last year distributed $2.9m to 39 groups that the society says misrepresent the science of climate change.

These include the International Policy Network, a thinktank with its HQ in London, and the George C Marshall Institute, which is based in Washington DC. In 2004, the institute jointly published a report with the UK group the Scientific Alliance which claimed that global temperature rises were not related to rising carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere.

"There is not a robust scientific basis for drawing definitive and objective conclusions about the effect of human influence on future climate," it said.

In the letter, Bob Ward of the Royal Society writes: "At our meeting in July ... you indicated that ExxonMobil would not be providing any further funding to these organisations. I would be grateful if you could let me know when ExxonMobil plans to carry out this pledge."

The letter, a copy of which has been obtained by the Guardian, adds: "I would be grateful if you could let me know which organisations in the UK and other European countries have been receiving funding so that I can work out which of these have been similarly providing inaccurate and misleading information to the public."

This is the first time the society has written to a company to challenge its activities. The move reflects mounting concern about the activities of lobby groups that try to undermine the overwhelming scientific evidence that emissions are linked to climate change.

The groups, such as the US Competitive Enterprise Institute (CEI), whose senior figures have described global warming as a myth, are expected to launch a renewed campaign ahead of a major new climate change report. The CEI responded to the recent release of Al Gore's climate change film, An Inconvenient Truth, with adverts that welcomed increased carbon dioxide pollution.

The latest report from the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), due to be published in February, is expected to say that climate change could drive the Earth's temperatures higher than previously predicted.

Mr Ward said: "It is now more crucial than ever that we have a debate which is properly informed by the science. For people to be still producing information that misleads people about climate change is unhelpful. The next IPCC report should give people the final push that they need to take action and we can't have people trying to undermine it."

The Royal Society letter also takes issue with ExxonMobil's own presentation of climate science. It strongly criticises the company's "corporate citizenship reports", which claim that "gaps in the scientific basis" make it very difficult to blame climate change on human activity. The letter says: "These statements are not consistent with the scientific literature. It is very difficult to reconcile the misrepresentations of climate change science in these documents with ExxonMobil's claim to be an industry leader."

Environmentalists regard ExxonMobil as one of the least progressive oil companies because, unlike competitors such as BP and Shell, it has not invested heavily in alternative energy sources.

ExxonMobil said: "We can confirm that recently we received a letter from the Royal Society on the topic of climate change. Amongst other topics our Tomorrow's Energy and Corporate Citizenship reports explain our views openly and honestly on climate change. We would refute any suggestion that our reports are inaccurate or misleading." A spokesman added that ExxonMobil stopped funding the Competitive Enterprise Institute this year.

Recent research has made scientists more confident that recent warming is man-made, a finding endorsed by scientific academies across the world, including in the US, China and Brazil.

The Royal Society's move emerged as Chris Rapley, director of the British Antarctic Survey, warned that the polar ice caps were breaking up at a faster rate than glaciologists thought possible, with profound consequences for global sea levels. Professor Rapley said the change was almost certainly down to global warming. "It's like opening a window and seeing what's going on and the message is that it's worse than we thought," he said.

 

[Happy]

Today is the hottest day since 1914 or was it 1917, doesn’t matter.

Today’s heat is the direct result of global warming, what was the reason for one almost as high almost 100 years ago?

 

[Smurf1976]

Today is the hottest day since 1914 or was it 1917, doesn’t matter.

Today’s heat is the direct result of global warming, what was the reason for one almost as high almost 100 years ago?

Simple natural variation in the climate. Even if it was a record high temperature, it's unlikely that we've experienced the full range of natural extremes in weather since European settlement, hence any short term variation isn't valid proof of global warming.

 

[Tim]

... and totally cynical about "science" too

Indeed, science itself is okay, it's all the "science" that we are now exposed to which makes things difficult. ("science" = meaning commissioned studies)

I recently saw Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth". Now I have no idea whether he's Democrat, Republican, Liberal, Labor, Green or whatever, and I don't really care. Politics is often best left out of science.

Something is definitely going on with the climate (hottest October day on record yesterday in Melbourne). I don't know how much humans are to blame, but it is definitely inconvenient for lots of companies to have a theory go round that "CO2 causes global warming". Hence why there is always going to be arguement and controversy surrounding the issue.

As this thread has shown, global warming is not a scientific issue. The science is out there (the real science that is). The issue is one of human psychology and human emotion. At this point in time, the majoritory of the world's 6.5 billion people don't know or don't care about global warming (assuming such a thing does exist). So more scientific research, and more pictures of disappearing glaciers are not going to do anything. Change will happen when the decision makers (politicians) decide to make a change. And things need to get a lot worse before they get better.

If you believe in what Al Gore is saying, and that the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is now nearly double the highest amount it has been over the last several thousand years (and heading for quadruple in the next few decades), the greatest environmental disaster over the last decade may have been Al Gore's loss to George W Bush. But then who knows whether Al Gore would have been the same man?


My opinion (based on human behaviour, not global warming) is that in tens of thousands of years' time, a species will dig up human remains and wonder, just like we do with the dinosaurs, what happened?

 

[2020hindsight]

Joe Blow
Can we set up a questionnaire please -

1. Do you believe global warming is a real phenomenon
2. is a serious threat to future generations
3. is being adequately managed by most countries
4. and is Australia doing its part.

Maybe also a suggestion box :-
What can we do about it? eg if we didnt fly so much and took teleconferencing up a notch or two - then maybe TLS would even become viable

One person in twenty in this thread seems to be prepared to ACT!! It's like Britain and the lead up to WW2!!! Appeasers to the obvious threat that "darkens our skies". Gee I wish I could whip up a speech like Winston Churchill. Al Gore to me was 100% convincing. Meanwhile let's watch as farmers sell up their irrigation rights - and water becomes more valuable than oil, and Tuvalu goes under, and London raises its tidal gates 10 times more frequently than planned, and New Orleans raises its dykes, and polar bears are dying , and reefs are dying, and animals in desert fringes are dying, and
.... the only things that are growing are deserts, ....

 

[2020hindsight]

My opinion ... is that in tens of thousands of years' time, a species will dig up human remains and wonder, just like we do with the dinosaurs, what happened?

Tim, Dont worry about man mate - that selfish bastard will still be here,
"Grieve instead for the animals". (AND the innocent humans)

God - who created man in his image (or as someone cleverly suggested, it might have been vice versa), God whether real or imagined would have intervened by now !!!!
Mother Nature (ABSOLUTELY REAL - but sadly powerless against the tyrrany of man) CANNOT intervene - except that she gave us a conscience. !!!!

If its Friday night (yes, guilty) and happy hour (guilty), and possibly Im doing a Mel Gibson, (jury out) - at least I can claim no particular prejudice - Im including almost all manking in this one. (Some mankind in the third world just die watching the sand - cover their bony ankles, and without enough vitamins to even form or express an opinion "why"). (or maybe the tide?) Any prejudice I have is against particularly the first world who are so damned greedy on eating not only their share of the cake but the next generation's - and (weep) the third world's as well. And as Nelson Mandela said BEFORE the recent gulf war II, words to the effect that only the ignorant could be "so lacking in foresight".

 

[Smurf1976]

Joe Blow
Can we set up a questionnaire please -

1. Do you believe global warming is a real phenomenon
2. is a serious threat to future generations
3. is being adequately managed by most countries
4. and is Australia doing its part.

Maybe also a suggestion box :-
What can we do about it? eg if we didnt fly so much and took teleconferencing up a notch or two - then maybe TLS would even become viable

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Absolutely not.
4. In practice, the same as most other countries.

As for what YOU can do about it, my number one point would be STOP making excuses for doing nothing and STOP placing a greater value on aesthetics than sustainability.

We've got no chance of winning the battle against global warming whilst we complain about wind turbines "spoiling" the landscape - and yes, on the coast and on top of hills where they are most visible is exactly where they need to be built.

Likewise we've got to stop muttering about fluorescent lights being "ugly" and start thinking of the emissions associated with halogen lights as being the real "ugly" lighting. It's time to stop finding excuses to not use solar for hot water, stop seeing gas guzzlers as a status symbol and start being too embarassed to be seen anywhere near one, let alone actually driving one. And start supporting localisation, not globalisation (transport, particularly by air, being incredibly polluting).

Clean, sustainable energy. Of course the BANANA lobby doesn't like either of them but thousands of tourists seem to be finding them quite attractive.

 

[2020hindsight]

whilst we complain about wind turbines "spoiling" the landscape - and yes, on the coast and on top of hills where they are most visible is exactly where they need to be built.

smurf - thanks for jumping into the ring so enthusiastically i would bet my house - no i would bet $1M that you dont live near a wind turbine i.e without hearing distance.

I would also bet (despite my respect for you and your opinion) that you have never been sprayed by the cropdusters near the Tasmanian timber country. People have - and theyve contracted terminal illnesses DIRECTLY as a result. (relevance? damned if I know - but Id be interested to know how it sits with your philosophy Horatio)

Have you ever seen the graphs of what noises affect animals compared to humans? The humming of wind turbines is massive albeit outside to 200 to 20kHz audible range for humans.

And as for your answer to Q4, mate - we can afford to be generous on this one, like - are we to be compared to economic pariahs like Malaysian timber companies who go into neighbouring countries and trick the locals into clearing their virginal forest!

PS if I live to regret this post I will blame the tequila - good enuf for Mel Gibson - good enuf for me

PS But I have to be fair - you want to know my area of vulnerability? where I am most easily attacked ? I believe that nuclear power will be way of the future! - and due care with the spent rods etc. Dont forget that the scientists are saying that compared to global warming, "Chernobyl will pale into insignificance"

 

[2020hindsight]

Speaking of (Hamlet and) Horatio ? maybe Id better get in first and lighten the tone :-

HAMLET AND THE DATING AGENCY
Scene 1 –Hamlet and Horatio enter Graveyard – Hamlet accidentally triggers his mobile phone and rings the little-known dating agency H.I.D.I.U.S. DATES… Receptionist is hearing impaired, Hamlet continues to talk to Yorick without realising etc etc ….

Receptionist:- “Hello, this is H.I.D.I.U.S. DATES, the hearing-impaired dating introductory “u-asked-for-it” service, Your name is ..ok….what seems to be the problem Omelette?

Alas poor Yorick…. A lass for Yorick? ….
Hi Horatio…. High whore ratio? mmmm would 50-50 be ok? ….
A fellow of infinite jest, - The fellow’s an infinite pest, you say?
Of most excellent fancy - and mostly sex he fancies? Mmmm lemme think, Doris maybe?
Your flashes of merriment - and he flashes at merry men,? Mmmm, Boris maybe?
Were want to set the table in the roar - and he wants to set the table in the raw?, a-huh, yupp !! – and I thought I’d heard em all ….

How abhorred in my imagination - and now a whore from my imagination, Of all the gall…

You chauvinists can be so damned unkind….
You ring me up and I’m supposed to find….
We may have kinky escorts wined and dined – But mate –
YOU want a blind date who is blind!!
(Hangs up)!! Another tragedy ends.

IF’n you’re interested in the real words….:- Graveyard :- Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio:
a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy:
He hath borne me on his back a thousand times; and now, how abhorred in my imagination it is! my gorge rims at it.
Here hung those lips that I have kissed I know not how oft. Where be your gibes now? Your gambols? your songs?
Your flashes of merriment, that were wont to set the table on a roar?
Not one now, to mock your own grinning? quite chap-fallen?
Now get you to my lady's chamber, and tell her, let her paint an inch thick, to this favour she must come;
Make her laugh at that. ……mmmm, Naaaa, I think we’ll just watch “I loe Lucy” again thanks.

PS does BANANA mean "been asked, never answered, never admitted"?

 

[billhill]

Guys lets not be so pessimistic (good post Smurf fully agree). Sure we face some massive problems due to global warming and i'm not going to say everything will be alright.

We still have time to act on this issue and if people just adopt a negative attitude and give up, well we might as well shoot ourselves in the head now.

Just talking about this issue on these forums is helping change the mindset of people. The more this issue is pushed into the popular media and political realms, the sooner governments will be forced to change there ways.

Changing your own behaviour may only be a drop in the ocean but if that encourages just one other person to change theirs, well isn't that worth it.

The huge changes needed to combat global warming will not come overnight these thing happen gradually. Remember humans can be very ingenuitive when they need to be.

 

[2020hindsight]

The huge changes needed to combat global warming will not come overnight these thing happen gradually.

Sadly Bilhill we come back to my main point - WHEN are we going to act?
PS I have the utmost respect for 90% of what both you and Smurf said.

PS Cant help myself - here's some more Shakespeare
Merchant of Venice:- "The quality of mercy is not strained
It droppeth as the gentle rain from Heaven"
I just wish mercifully it bloody rained
Before our team got ducks, and all eleven.

The Tempest:- "We are such stuff as dreams are boldly made of
And our little life is rounded with a sleep"
I just wish I could turn the neighbour’s maid off
Instead of counting 50,000 sheep.

Midsummer Night’s Dream:- "The course of true love never did run smooth"
A bit like my old Chev, it needs some flattery
You miss ‘em when they’re missing - that’s the truth
(Maybe I’ll check the spark, and then the battery.)

Romeo and Juliet:- "But soft, what light from yonder window breaks
It is the east and Juliet is the sun
Arise fair sun, and kill the envious moon"
Ahhh – let’s just go to my place, have some fun.

 

[2020hindsight]

Romeo What shall I swear by?
Juliet Do not swear at all
Or if thou wilt swear by thy gracious self
And if thou wilt, Viag-aras on call -
And swearing - wash your mouth – soap’s on the shelf.

What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet
So Romeo would were he not Romeo called
Still smell like rotting fishheads round his feet.

Twelfth Night (Duke on Music):-If music be the food of love play on
Give me excess of it – and surf and sun!
The appetite may sicken and so die
But me, I’m sticking round for some more pie.

Julius Caesar (Mark Anthony):-Friends Romans Countrymen, lend me your ears
I’ve gone and left my hearing aid at home
And futile if I’m deaf to rousing cheers
And damn it all, the best seats in the dome.

And Brutus was an honourable man
So buy his snakeoil – 20 bucks and bottled
But Mark the word of Anthony, his fan,
You turn your back, you’re liable to get throttled.

For I have neither wit nor words nor worth
Action nor utterance, nor the power of speech
To stir men’s blood - except perhaps in mirth
Or when my bloody beer is out of reach. etc etc

Ahhh CRIKEY ( such a dignified word ) guess you justhad to b there