Gay Marriage

[Value Collector]

VC, you are only good at putting people down when you have nothing to say, go learn some manners.

Maybe you should think about it before mouthing off.

I have tried to engage you many times, your arguments are circular at best, you are like a record stuck on one track that keeps playing the same logical fallacies and red herrings over and over, and when asked to back up your statements you go quite, until you burst in later with the same red herrings and logical fallacies.

 

[Tink]

Actually I think you have far more in common with the activist Islamist trying to force your religious based dogma onto the the rest of us than gays do.

What do you believe Jesus would be saying about same sex marriage? The same Jesus that supported polygamy mind you.

Well from what I see, the gays are the ones suing when things don't go their way.

You are the one pushing your dogma, and what's that about tolerance?

 

[Ald123]

Just how exactly would Same sex changes to the Marriage Act would undermine constitutional rights to freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

No political wishy washyness please. I'd like some specific examples of how you believe this would occur.

As for the example of the doctor you provided. Would you support a doctor that refused life saving treatment to a homosexual on the basis of their religion? At what point does someones religious beliefs over ride law and the secular state? Do we renounce discriminations laws so those who don't like <insert minority group> can just tell them to F off? Would it be OK for a gay run business to refuse to serve Christians and Muslims due to the centuries of persecution they've dished out to homosexuals? In your doctors case, would it be Ok for a gay doctor to refuse to treat a religious person?

In your doctors case would it be ok for your gay doctor to request a religious person to be inseminated against their will?
This is what you want from the doctor who refused the lesbians request for whatever reason.

If someone comes into my shop and wants to buy a lolly, I have the right to not engage in business with them.
If Mr market comes to you in the morning and says buy a 100 shares of FMG do you not have the right to refuse without being sued for whatever reason you wish.

Why do you wish for a society that is so closed and restrictive, that a lesbian with some sperm in her pocket can walk into a doctors office and demand that she be inseminated. What if she had just been sucking the president and intends to use his sperm to make some money. Would that be reason to refuse? Or is it just because it is known that the doctor was religious?

Are all atheists and gay activists so rabid that they respond like a bull to a red cape whenever they hear the world religion?

What lies behind this? What's causing you the pain that you attack people minding their own business.

 

[sydboy007]

My marriage is a symbol for ever, to be handed down as an inheritance to my descendants, that they will be happy and our family will continue as a family supporting one another, united and not divided, if they follow my example then we can pass down the riches we accumulate to tide us over against future rascals and governments who wish to steal what my family creates. If amongst them perchance a gay member of family is born, they will be loved but their line will not prosper. It is about my right to say that in my family, the men shall only marry women and the women shall only marry men. It is about being true and owing justice to the creator who in creation instituted it naturally to be so. I will not let it be otherwise.

Keep your hands off our marriages! Get your own word for it.

Call it Gayrriage and go be happy I won't bother you. You can even put it into the constitution for all I care. I want it distinct from my values.

So when God supported the Kings of the old testament, gave them many wives, sometimes hundreds of sex slave concubines as well, how does that fit into you values system that supposedly was provided to you by your creator god?

• In Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite amount of women without any limits to how many he can marry.
• In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.
• In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
• In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines.

Now remember from your bible studies Jesus said all the old laws are still to be obeyed

Jesus said: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"

Therefore, it would be acceptable to your god for a many to have more than one wife. You seem to be condemning something your god supports??

Jesus allowed for a widow to marry her former husband's brother even if he were married, then this negates the Christians' claim about the Bible prohibiting polygamy. A man can be one flesh with more than one woman. In the case of Matthew 22:24-28, the man can be one flesh with his wife, and one flesh with his deceased brother's wife. Also keep in mind that Exodus 21:10 allows a man to marry an infinite amount of women, and Deuteronomy 21:15 allows a man to marry more than one wife.

How is marriage and justice related?

How do you know if you had a gay child that their line will not prosper? Unless you deliberately try to make it so, who are you to say that they will not live a good life and have a family and when they die there will be people who's memories they live on in. You have a very cod and callous view, definitely not based on the teachings of Jesus.

 

[Value Collector]

My marriage is a symbol for ever, to be handed down as an inheritance to my descendants, that they will be happy and our family will continue as a family supporting one another, united and not divided, if they follow my example then we can pass down the riches we accumulate to tide us over against future rascals and governments who wish to steal what my family creates.

How does allowing a lesbian couple on the other side of town to marry each other affect anything your family does?

If amongst them perchance a gay member of family is born, they will be loved but their line will not prosper. It is about my right to say that in my family, the men shall only marry women and the women shall only marry men.

I do feel sorry for the members of your family who are born gay, to be honest I don't understand why you would want to treat them differently

It is about being true and owing justice to the creator who in creation instituted it naturally to be so. I will not let it be otherwise.

What if the creator that you believe in doesn't exist, and you live your life being unfair to gay family members for no reason?

Keep your hands off our marriages! Get your own word for it.

Why do you not want to share the word marriage with same sex couples?

 

[sydboy007]

In your doctors case would it be ok for your gay doctor to request a religious person to be inseminated against their will?
This is what you want from the doctor who refused the lesbians request for whatever reason.

If someone comes into my shop and wants to buy a lolly, I have the right to not engage in business with them.
If Mr market comes to you in the morning and says buy a 100 shares of FMG do you not have the right to refuse without being sued for whatever reason you wish.

Why do you wish for a society that is so closed and restrictive, that a lesbian with some sperm in her pocket can walk into a doctors office and demand that she be inseminated. What if she had just been sucking the president and intends to use his sperm to make some money. Would that be reason to refuse? Or is it just because it is known that the doctor was religious?

Are all atheists and gay activists so rabid that they respond like a bull to a red cape whenever they hear the world religion?

What lies behind this? What's causing you the pain that you attack people minding their own business.

I'm not proposing anyone to be inseminated against their will.

So you agree that a doctor has the right to deny care based on their religious beliefs?

Would those affected have the right to make this choice known to the wider community? Would the community have the right to boycott the doctor since his choice conflicts with their views?

As for a shop owner, was it right for white shop owners to refuse to serve black patrons? is it ever right to discriminate based on age race sex? If not, why is it OK to discriminate based on sexuality?

In my job we have a number of religious based organisations. generally Catholic institutions. Would you support me going to my employer and saying my conscience prohibits me supporting these customers due to the ongoing child abuse that was covered up over decades, that the Church's stance on abortion causes great harm to women and children whose parents may not be in a financial position to support.

Once you allow people to do things based on a discriminatory attitude, where do you draw the line?

Would it be Ok for a doctor to withold life saving treatment based on a religious view? Is it right for a parent of the Mormon faith to let their child die by not allowing them to have a blood transfusion? Would you support a Islamic doctor refusing to treat a Christian, or to treat a non Muslim woman? These are just some of the pandora's box of issues you would unleash if we followed your path.

 

[Ald123]

How does gay getting married and deemed equal before the law harm society?

For one, it let the confused and gay children (the one group we're all worried about right?), it let the kids know that it's not a crime or wrong or weird or mutant or otherwise harmful if they happen to be gay, happen to be attracted to Steve instead of Eve.

That would do wonders for gay kids mental and psychological development. Maybe even cause most of them to not be so depressed and morose as to become poets and artists

Serious though, there are cases where young gay teens commit suicide due to bullying or just self-loathing caused by social disdain and discrimination. Making it legally and socially acceptable for homosexual to get married, have a family if they want to... that will send a good message.

But while it's tough on teen homosexuals, they have come to deal with it and I'm sure most do not grow up with this victimisation mentality - they find strength and resolve issues as we all do, then work, contribute, go about their lives, and work to forced change in the laws and institution that make them out to be some alien, some second class citizens.

Marriage is not like money or goods where if you give it to others it lessens it. And even if legalising gay marriage somehow demean the holy institution of traditional marriage where there's no abuse of children, no abuse of partners, no break-up, no divorce and all live happily ever after... homosexuals are citizens too are they not? So who the heck are we to say they can't enjoy all the natural rights all other citizens are automatically given?

We have discussed this in earlier posts already. Nobody wants bullying of anyone, treat the cause not the symptoms

 

[Value Collector]

Well from what I see, the gays are the ones suing when things don't go their way.

that's called standing up for yourself.

The difference here is that gays are not fighting to take anything away from you, they are fighting for equal rights, how ever you are fighting for the continuation of an unjust law that denies them of rights.

Allowing Gay marriage takes absolutely nothing away from you, you are not under attack.

gays win = tink loses nothing
Tink wins = gays continue being denied rights.

 

[Tink]

The homosexual lobby wants everyone to submit to its agenda, and they are more than happy to use the force of law to achieve their aims. They want all dissent crushed

Freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, and religious freedom are all being trampled on as the homosexual activists use the heavy hand of the law to ensure that everyone submits, and no one demurs.

 

[SirRumpole]

Once you allow people to do things based on a discriminatory attitude, where do you draw the line?

Would it be Ok for a doctor to withold life saving treatment based on a religious view? Is it right for a parent of the Mormon faith to let their child die by not allowing them to have a blood transfusion? Would you support a Islamic doctor refusing to treat a Christian, or to treat a non Muslim woman? These are just some of the pandora's box of issues you would unleash if we followed your path.

Doctor's can choose who to treat if they are in private practise and not being paid by the taxpayer, just as patients can choose only to be treated by a particular doctor and not others if they pay for the services.

If a cake shop won't produce a wedding cake for gay people, there are plenty of other cake shops around.

 

[Trembling Hand]

If amongst them perchance a gay member of family is born, they will be loved but their line will not prosper. It is about my right to say that in my family, the men shall only marry women and the women shall only marry men. It is about being true and owing justice to the creator who in creation instituted it naturally to be so. I will not let it be otherwise.

Join the two sentences I have highlighted together. If you do believe in a god as a creator then how the hell can you then say "It is about my right to say that in my family" or anyone else's family.

Religious grounds for discrimination is astoundingly hypocritical! If someone is that way then surely that is because your god made them just like that???

 

[Ald123]

View attachment 63227

No, thousands of years of experience and insight and learning and observation have resulted in the situation.

Why do you believe that you are more intelligent then billion before you who have had the experience of life.

Do you think that 2000 years ago gays were not wanting to marry and have children?
Do you think that we ignore the fact that 2000 years ago and in every generation before and after there were gays who had unions they liked to call marriages and had children that they adopted, or whatever.
The elders and wise saw that this was a bad idea by experience and outlawed it. We perhaps have lost their experience, I don't think so, but I don't think I am so smart as to willy nilly negate their experience.

 

[Ald123]

lol Tink, you are fast becoming one of the most hysterical religious nuts I have interacted with.

No I don't think so.

I hear mirrors are on sale at IKEA.

 

[sydboy007]

Why are you so selfish that you don't want to help protect children form what they are too young to experience?

Yes, that's a perfectly valid question. I'd like to hear those higher ups in the Catholic church answer that one. Something along the lines of moving paedophiles from suburb to suburb comes to mind as one of the ways they protected children over the decades.

 

[Ald123]

Actually I think you have far more in common with the activist Islamist trying to force your religious based dogma onto the the rest of us than gays do.

What do you believe Jesus would be saying about same sex marriage? The same Jesus that supported polygamy mind you.

Actually uhmm no !

But go read what he said.

Try check out Matthew 9 v 1-12

But look I don't think you are a man who cares much about Jesus anyway and that's fine.

Why should I have the LGBT activist dogmatic terrorist force their non-religious dogmas onto me?

 

[Ald123]

Just how exactly would Same sex changes to the Marriage Act would undermine constitutional rights to freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

No political wishy washyness please. I'd like some specific examples of how you believe this would occur.

As for the example of the doctor you provided. Would you support a doctor that refused life saving treatment to a homosexual on the basis of their religion? At what point does someones religious beliefs over ride law and the secular state? Do we renounce discriminations laws so those who don't like <insert minority group> can just tell them to F off? Would it be OK for a gay run business to refuse to serve Christians and Muslims due to the centuries of persecution they've dished out to homosexuals? In your doctors case, would it be Ok for a gay doctor to refuse to treat a religious person?

You know absolutely f all about life until you have married a woman, had several children your wife gave birth to in front of your eyes and nursed with her own breasts and raised till they are at least 30. It's easy to mix some powder in a bottle and throw it in a babies mouth and pretend you are a good mom if you can breastfeed and don't.

 

[moXJO]

Live sex on the other hand is something sacred that happens between two people that love each other in the privacy of their sanctuary.

Do you not see the difference?

Did you ever see what happens on those parades? As it turns out I don't take the children there because I have a brain. Nor do I take my children to beaches where people fornicate. But I should not be the only one protecting my children. We live in a village and everyone should be protecting the children.

Why are you so selfish that you don't want to help protect children form what they are too young to experience?

Yes its all gay marriages fault, despite the internet being pr0n central. You waging that battle yet?

Marriage is so sacred we have:
Open marriage.
Celebrity marriage (5 year or less).
Las Vegas marriage where an Elvis impersonator will marry you.
And divorce running at what?? 50%
And plenty of affairs.
Its a joke unless they bring in a no divorce law (which would be funny).

You and your religion do not own the rights on telling other people how to live.
Taking examples of bad behavior and then blaming the whole community as the same is a cheap way to score points.

"Think of the children" bloody hell. Next you will be insinuating anyone for gay marriage is a pedo like some of the above are trying to turn the debate.
Heres the thing: Todays children grow up a lot more accepting. The current religious fruitloops trying to dictate everyones lives are on the losing side of the battle. And the wrong side of history. Todays kids will be tomorrows adults pushing for acceptance.

Like I said no problem if you practice your faith. But that does not hold sway over how others are allowed to live.

The fact that those that claim to be religious here, are the ones making people suffer to prove faith, or out of hate and fear is laughable.

 

[Ald123]

So when God supported the Kings of the old testament, gave them many wives, sometimes hundreds of sex slave concubines as well, how does that fit into you values system that supposedly was provided to you by your creator god?

• In Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite amount of women without any limits to how many he can marry.
• In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.
• In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
• In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines.

Now remember from your bible studies Jesus said all the old laws are still to be obeyed



Therefore, it would be acceptable to your god for a many to have more than one wife. You seem to be condemning something your god supports??

Jesus allowed for a widow to marry her former husband's brother even if he were married, then this negates the Christians' claim about the Bible prohibiting polygamy. A man can be one flesh with more than one woman. In the case of Matthew 22:24-28, the man can be one flesh with his wife, and one flesh with his deceased brother's wife. Also keep in mind that Exodus 21:10 allows a man to marry an infinite amount of women, and Deuteronomy 21:15 allows a man to marry more than one wife.

How is marriage and justice related?

How do you know if you had a gay child that their line will not prosper? Unless you deliberately try to make it so, who are you to say that they will not live a good life and have a family and when they die there will be people who's memories they live on in. You have a very cod and callous view, definitely not based on the teachings of Jesus.

Go speak to a Rabbi he will explain what all that really meant and what it means. You would need a degree in Jewish culture to explain things properly to you. And I am not demeaning you here. It's just the way it is.

 

[Tink]

moXJO, you have come in a middle of a conversation where this was mentioned

Well they are on the same par, TH.

The homosexual activists and the Islamic activists are becoming almost one and the same.
Both are using similar means to achieve similar goals.

and I have proved the point.

They are both the same in their approach.

 

[sydboy007]

To give you an idea of why I support gay marriage, the below is what homosexuals still face today.

The 22-year-old owner of Grand Central Pizzeria and Grille in Delta, Utah, was closing up shop for the night when an unknown assailant grabbed him by the head and slammed him against the wall. “I remember waking up and I was lying on the floor,” he says. “Somebody was on my chest and legs and they were trying to force me to drink bleach.”
He returned to consciousness with a concussion and found that medical teams were already attending to his wounds. $1,300 had been stolen from the premises. Released by the hospital the next morning, Jones returned home to find the words “Die Fag” spray-painted on the garage door of his family home. Later that week, a Molotov cocktail was hurtled through Jones’ bedroom window. He put out the flames with a fire extinguisher before too much (physical) damage was done, only to find more graffiti spray-painted on the facade of his house: “You’ll Die. Burn Fag.”

A Seattle couple who sustained multiple injuries during an attack at a Gay Pride event on Capitol Hill now face thousands of dollars in medical expenses.

Rawstory reports that Steven Briggs and Patrick Dettling had been out celebrating the legalization of same-sex marriage last Sunday, when a gang of three men and two women approached them.

The situation quickly intensified, with the attackers shouting homophobic slurs as they repeated punched the two men in the face and kicked them before fleeing.

A man was brutally beaten in Paris over the weekend in an anti-gay attack he says shows the “face of homophobia in France.” Gay rights activists say ongoing sentiment against same-sex marriage has turned into homophobic violence.

According to Wilfred de Brujin, he and his boyfriend were attacked Saturday night in the 19th arrondissement in Paris.

The Center for Disease Control and Prevention released today its first set of national prevalence data on intimate partner violence (IPV), sexual violence (SV), and stalking victimization by sexual orientation.

Among the study’s most disturbing findings, nearly half of female bisexual victims (48.2%) and more than one-quarter of female heterosexual victims (28.3%) experienced their first rape between the ages of 11 and 17 years old.

The number of hate crimes reported to U.S. law enforcement agencies decreased by 6% from 2010, while anti-LGBT violence increased slightly by 2.6%, according to a new report by the FBI.

Of the 6,222 hate crimes reported in 2011, 1,508 were based on sexual orientation, up from 1,470 in 2010. Nearly 21% of all hate crimes were motivated by sexual orientation, said the FBI, with men most often as the victims.

“FBI statistics vastly underestimate the actual number of hate crimes committed in the United States,” Levin told the L.A. Times. “When the Justice Department asks victims anonymously whether they have been targeted for hate offenses, they get a figure that approaches 200,000 hate crimes annually.”

Add Senegal to the list of places it sucks to be gay. “Even death cannot stop the violence against gays in this corner of the world any more. Madieye Diallo’s body had only been in the ground for a few hours when the mob descended on the weedy cemetery with shovels. They yanked out the corpse, spit on its torso, dragged it away and dumped it in front of the home of his elderly parents. The scene of May 2, 2009 was filmed on a cell phone and the video sold at the market. It passed from phone to phone, sowing panic among gay men who say they now feel like hunted animals. … In the past two years, at least four men suspected of being gay have been exhumed by angry mobs in cemeteries in Senegal.

Closer to home

Stephanie McCarthy said she was waiting to perform with her band at the Town Hall Hotel in Newtown on Friday night when she was set upon by up to five men and brutally bashed in what she says was an unprovoked attack

The bigotry this violence hides behind uses some form of pseudo religious intolerance to justify it.