Gay Marriage

[MrBurns]

I also know from nature and evolution that there exists for some reason male and female and they have different but utterly compatible sexual organs that evolved for their coupling.
.

Every time I try to explain that to women they call the police.

 

[sydboy007]

Speaking for myself it doesn't really bother me if two consenting same sex people want to get married, I don't think it's the business of governments to tell consenting adults of sufficient mental capacity what to do. I am , however sick of seeing and hearing the subject discussed as though it's the most important thing in the world.

I'm also sick (almost literally) of seeing men hugging and kissing each other and trying to pretend it's normal. It may be for them, but not for most of us. If people want to practise minority behaviour, don't do it on my TV screen thanks.

I also am concerned about children being forced to be brought up in what the vast majority of us would consider an un-natural environment. I understand that its difficult for homosexuals to be bought up in an environment that seems abnormal to them, but that's no reason to force a similar environment onto children who will most likely turn out heterosexual, and will belong to a different family environment and they deserve the attentions of both a mother and father.

Just wow. I'm sure there were plenty of southerners in the US saying exactly the same thing about mixed race couples. totally unantural to mix the races, and the poor children seeing them show affection for each other in public will leave them emotionally disturbed. Gosh, I feel faint.

If a person is born homosexual, how is that not natural? Seems you view a heterosexual couple holding hands in public or on TV as the natural course of things, but a same sex couple doing the same is rubbing it in your face.

I'd say you need to look within yourself as to what's causing you so much angst, rather than telling anyone who doesn't fit your white picket fence view of society that they should not be seen, not be heard, and meekly accept what the masses choose to give them. I'm glad those before me didn't follow your way, otherwise it would still be a crime to be homosexual, police and the general public would still be out treating gays as punching bags, and men and women forced into marriages that leave them unfilled simply to fit into what you want them to be.

 

[sydboy007]

I am not convinced that nature has anything to do with creating gay people, I can accept this as a possibility, but that is less important then truly understanding gay people and what they experience especially their difficulties. My gay friends have told me that their problem was with their parents, specifically a very dysfunctional relationship with a dysfunctional father. What I would call abuse was also involved in other cases. My view at the moment is that this is more likely the cause of being gay based on what they have told me. My one gay friend yearned for time with his father which was denied him and he feels that this harmed him in some way. It's heartbreaking to hear.

I also observed how other people are able to acquire the desire to become gay due to needing to be loved and accepted by somebody. Others have the sexual urge directed towards this at some point in their lives and acquire a taste for it just like people are known to acquire sexual feelings towards objects.


I would say, who are we that we do not support gay people with their difficulties. I would say that it is extremely egoistical to assume that nobody is harmed by same sex marriage. I would say that with rights come responsibilities and that we can't talk about or understand which rights we can grant unless we have the ability and capacity to address the responsibilities. I was shocked to learn that a couple of pedophiles were granted the right to adopt children and these guys were pimping their toddler son all over the world for money to be abused by others. in the same way we have aboriginal children in communities with drunk parents, while we pretend that we are not abusing another stolen generation. We have refugee children being abused in concentration camps. Everyone is very quick to talk about their rights but not about their responsibilities. We have a responsibility to ensure that children are loved and cared for but children's rights in most countries are ignored.

We don't live our own lives, this is a fiction, what I do directly impacts my neighbour.

I think that if gay people want to have civil unions and equal benefits they should be granted this but without then ignoring or neglecting the real families who battle to raise children without any support from anyone.

Where is everybody doing the Children Pride marches? demanding that children are given their rights?
It's time to fight for children's rights, they are the great unseen neglected little people that have no voice in society and are treated with contempt.

If a child turns out to be gay, but is raised by heterosexual parents, what nurturing would cause this to happen?

I'm gay, had probably the ideal childhood in that my parents provided me good role models, as well as my extended families. They worked hard, sacrificed a lot to ensure my brother and myself could go as far through the education system as we could. I lived int he same house for all I can remember. We struggled, grew a lot of our own food, put insulation in houses in the heat of summer, mowed countless lawns to make ends meet, but I count myself lucky that my parents didn't gamble drink or smoke.

Of all my gay friends, whether male or female, not one of them has ever said they were gay because they were molested as children. I like asking people when did you first think you were gay. Not when you accepted it, but when did you have thoughts that someone of the same sex had a better body shape than the opposite sex. Generally these thoughts were from ages 5-7.

That a lot of gay children face virtual expulsion from the family happens far too often. What greater crime is there than for a parent to turn their back on a child, not because of something they have done that's bad, but purely because they can't accept a simple thing about them? Yet society in many cases accepts this, when really it's just the same as I don't love you because you're left handed and refuse to become right handed.

As for children's rights, well while you have the overriding adult right to procreate as much as you want, I'd say child rights will always be a secondary issue.

 

[SirRumpole]

Just wow. I'm sure there were plenty of southerners in the US saying exactly the same thing about mixed race couples. totally unantural to mix the races, and the poor children seeing them show affection for each other in public will leave them emotionally disturbed. Gosh, I feel faint.

If a person is born homosexual, how is that not natural? Seems you view a heterosexual couple holding hands in public or on TV as the natural course of things, but a same sex couple doing the same is rubbing it in your face.

I'd say you need to look within yourself as to what's causing you so much angst, rather than telling anyone who doesn't fit your white picket fence view of society that they should not be seen, not be heard, and meekly accept what the masses choose to give them. I'm glad those before me didn't follow your way, otherwise it would still be a crime to be homosexual, police and the general public would still be out treating gays as punching bags, and men and women forced into marriages that leave them unfilled simply to fit into what you want them to be.

No, that is rubbish Syd. Do what you like in private but remember that homosexuals are about 5% of the population, so you can't expect the rest of us to like what you do. If you want to see homosexual acts on TV, start your own tv station or lobby SBS to show them

The interracial marriage argument is a straw man. It's natural for a man and women of any race to mate and produce children, but two men cannot neither can two women. I don't see how a person of your intelligence can be blind to that reality.

You may note that I said it doesn't bother me if two same sex consenting adults get married, but leave unconsenting children out of these relationships.

 

[Ald123]

Apart from thinking that homosexuality is a mental disease. Do you believe it to be curable as well?
When that guy came back from his God experience, what were his views on gay marriage. Did God tell him to champion the cause of straightness?

Think of the children huh.
I wonder how many kids that were homosexual, necked themselves over the years with views being pushed that they are against nature and against God.

I am terribly sorry that you have misunderstood me. Nowhere have I advocated that homosexuality is a mental disease.

Regarding the "guy" who came back from his God experience. He set up homes for homeless children and abused women. Places of refuge where these people who had been neglected or abused could find sanctuary. He then worked tirelessly raising funds to maintain these places of refuge.

As far as children "necking" themselves I would ask. Where was the support in society for those children? Why did society allow them to commit suicide? Why were these children being bullied to death? Again you want to take away the true responsibility away from who was factually responsible for murdering these people and place it in somebody else's hands.

If I am born with big ears and I am bullied at school to the point that I commit suicide. Your solution is to legislate to make big ears fashionable and desirable so that the big eared child would not encounter negativity but praise.
I on the other hand say that the problem lies in two matters.

1) the big eared child should have been looked after.
2) the small eared children who actually murdered the big eared child should have been raised in such a way that despite the big ears of the big eared child, the big eared child should have been accorded the courtesy of love dignity and respect.

The people with the mental disease are the ones who killed the child .

Don't go jumping to poor conclusions both you and I are united in that we both wish all people to be treated with dignity and respect and love. The difference is in the methods to achieve that objective. I am against half arsed appeasement , I want the truthful real solutions to the problems.

 

[Ald123]

Oh please what would you call it.
"No your not good enough to be married"

I'd say the higher percentage of people that divorce, treat marriage with more contempt.

I fully agree with your last sentence.

 

[Tisme]

. It's natural for a man and women of any race to mate and produce children, . .

As is the revulsion of sexual attraction to same genders. Can't be helped.

If "it" is a congenital disorder and can't be treated, does that mean paedophiles and any others with abnormal desires can't be treated either and that's that? We could save heaps on therapy bills and prison cells if we just accept the truth.

 

[Value Collector]

Speaking for myself it doesn't really bother me if two consenting same sex people want to get married, I don't think it's the business of governments to tell consenting adults of sufficient mental capacity what to do.

That's probably the smartest thing you have said in this thread.

.

 

[Value Collector]

I am not convinced that nature has anything to do with creating gay people, I can accept this as a possibility, but that is less important then truly understanding gay people and what they experience especially their difficulties. My gay friends have told me that their problem was with their parents, specifically a very dysfunctional relationship with a dysfunctional father. What I would call abuse was also involved in other cases. My view at the moment is that this is more likely the cause of being gay based on what they have told me. My one gay friend yearned for time with his father which was denied him and he feels that this harmed him in some way. It's heartbreaking to hear.

.

All the evidence suggests that Gay people are born gay, so yes created by nature.

I would say that it is extremely egoistical to assume that nobody is harmed by same sex marriage.

Who would be harmed?

I was shocked to learn that a couple of pedophiles were granted the right to adopt children and these guys were pimping their toddler son all over the world for money to be abused by others.

Paedophiles exist in the heterosexual community also, In fact there are more heterosexual paedophiles.

We don't live our own lives, this is a fiction, what I do directly impacts my neighbour.

offcourse, But if you want to ban your neighbour from doing something you have to show that it causes harm to others.

I think that if gay people want to have civil unions and equal benefits they should be granted this but without then ignoring or neglecting the real families who battle to raise children without any support from anyone.

How would allowing gay people marriage rights be neglecting the "real families"? and how is a same sex couple not a "real family"

Where is everybody doing the Children Pride marches? demanding that children are given their rights?
It's time to fight for children's rights, they are the great unseen neglected little people that have no voice in society and are treated with contempt

As discussed, the children issue is a red herring here, this is a discussion about marriage rights, not the rights to raise children.

 

[Value Collector]

Another person I met and became close friends with, well one day after many years of knowing him, he shared a highly personal account of a time in his life with me, that he was clinically dead for 45 minutes in a car crash said that while he was "dead" his life flashed before his eyes. Then he claimed he eventually spoke with God after first experiencing himself alone in a void of utterly unbearable loneliness while fully conscious in some afterlife state which he states ended after he made an act of faith in a relationship with God and this resulted in him experiencing utter paradise plus God and given the choice to return to life and amend his ways. He chose to return and complete his life's work. He has since passed away again but in life he was the most generous and kind, deep person I have ever met and he would try to uphold all the virtues to the best of his abilities.

:

A dying brain can experience all sorts of weird stuff, it's nothing to take seriously any more than any other dream you have.

Your friend wasn't really "dead", death is a process, not a single event. I know in the medical establishment we like to pronounce people dead at a certain time, but that's not how it works, our bodies shutdown over a period of time, depending on the situation they can be restarted sometimes, all this means is that the process of dying wasn't complete to the point where it was irreversible yet.

The experiences people say they have during the dying process of just really vivid dreams, and like all dreams, we fill in the blanks when retelling the stories later.

 

[Ald123]

Every time I try to explain that to women they call the police.

Mr Burns let me let you in on a secret.

It is the female that chooses her mate and a male chasing after a woman is the biggest folly under the sun that a male can ever perform.

This world is far more complicated then it was decades ago. A smart young male realises the world of today is almost a trap, created to ensnare him. A smart male creates his person, cultivates and refines himself in all spheres of life until he is well on his way to becoming the best person he can be. With every step he takes in this direction he is better able to understand many more things about himself and the world. Once his brain is developed a bit more, for this is required for this world. Then from the age of 22 he can observe if there is any attractive female worthy of the dignity he has formed for himself, who has also respected herself enough to be his mate.

If she chooses him, then they can begin discovering if there is something in that meeting moving forward.

 

[Ald123]

A dying brain can experience all sorts of weird stuff, it's nothing to take seriously any more than any other dream you have.

Your friend wasn't really "dead", death is a process, not a single event. I know in the medical establishment we like to pronounce people dead at a certain time, but that's not how it works, our bodies shutdown over a period of time, depending on the situation they can be restarted sometimes, all this means is that the process of dying wasn't complete to the point where it was irreversible yet.

The experiences people say they have during the dying process of just really vivid dreams, and like all dreams, we fill in the blanks when retelling the stories later.

Good it's settled then. Luckily that my friend had that dream though, a lot of people got help from him.
I must admit I am a little disappointed now that you have told me that we simply cease to exit when we die.
I was kind of hoping for a paradise. Are you sure that there is no afterlife of sorts or reincarnation or something else?

 

[Ald123]

If a child turns out to be gay, but is raised by heterosexual parents, what nurturing would cause this to happen?

I'm gay, had probably the ideal childhood in that my parents provided me good role models, as well as my extended families. They worked hard, sacrificed a lot to ensure my brother and myself could go as far through the education system as we could. I lived int he same house for all I can remember. We struggled, grew a lot of our own food, put insulation in houses in the heat of summer, mowed countless lawns to make ends meet, but I count myself lucky that my parents didn't gamble drink or smoke.

Of all my gay friends, whether male or female, not one of them has ever said they were gay because they were molested as children. I like asking people when did you first think you were gay. Not when you accepted it, but when did you have thoughts that someone of the same sex had a better body shape than the opposite sex. Generally these thoughts were from ages 5-7.

That a lot of gay children face virtual expulsion from the family happens far too often. What greater crime is there than for a parent to turn their back on a child, not because of something they have done that's bad, but purely because they can't accept a simple thing about them? Yet society in many cases accepts this, when really it's just the same as I don't love you because you're left handed and refuse to become right handed.

As for children's rights, well while you have the overriding adult right to procreate as much as you want, I'd say child rights will always be a secondary issue.

If you were a child who experienced deep love from his parents, consider your parents as always being functional and to this day can only experience deep love and gratitude for his parents and you were not abused in anyway by anybody nor subjected to some environmental exposure or exposure to sexual situations or pornography that a child should not be subjected to then I concede that your being born gay was a natural event.

I will never ever however concede that a childs rights are a secondary issue but rather assert that they should be the highest issue. I am surprised however that you have this opinion and it leaves me curious and baffled?

 

[Value Collector]

I must admit I am a little disappointed now that you have told me that we simply cease to exit when we die.

I didn't say that's what happens, it's just we have no good reason to believe other wise.

I was kind of hoping for a paradise. Are you sure that there is no afterlife of sorts or reincarnation or something else

We have no reason to believe that any part of our personality can survive the decay of our brains.

All the evidence suggests that consciousness is a by product of the operation of a brain, and everything we think of as being us , eg thoughts, feelings, personality etc all exist in the brain, when that brain is switched off, they cease to exist.

I mean you don't even have to switch the brain off to lose some of your personality, People that suffer brain injuries or diseases can lose capacity for certain emotions, lose memories even have their entire personality change. If you believe "who you are" is not a function of the brain, and you believe it's your "soul" how can these big personality changes be explained when you damage the brain.

And if a damaged brain loses a chunk of its personality, how can this personality be preserved when the brain is destroyed?

 

[Value Collector]

I think we're entitled to stand up for the institution of marriage, including the Marriage Act in present form, without being accused of bigotry and retrograde thinking.

.

I think its up to you then to provide valid reasons why the marriage act shouldn't be extended to include same sex couples.

 

[Ald123]

I didn't say that's what happens, it's just we have no good reason to believe other wise.



We have no reason to believe that any part of our personality can survive the decay of our brains.

All the evidence suggests that consciousness is a by product of the operation of a brain, and everything we think of as being us , eg thoughts, feelings, personality etc all exist in the brain, when that brain is switched off, they cease to exist.

I mean you don't even have to switch the brain off to lose some of your personality, People that suffer brain injuries or diseases can lose capacity for certain emotions, lose memories even have their entire personality change. If you believe "who you are" is not a function of the brain, and you believe it's your "soul" how can these big personality changes be explained when you damage the brain.

And if a damaged brain loses a chunk of its personality, how can this personality be preserved when the brain is destroyed?

I did not think that it would be personality to be honest. To a large degree personality must be very specific to the body. I thought that we as persons at our fundamental could be like some pure energy form of our selves. An energy that can't be destroyed but is transferred.

I am interested to see what happens one day when young Man A looses his head donating his body to science but ten years earlier a old Man B who lost his torso and donated his head to science. When the surgeons sew the body of A to the head of B does man B come back to life as a young man.

If that's the case we probably have invented eternal life right? You would not expect the brain of man b to age in a young body?

 

[Value Collector]

I did not think that it would be personality to be honest. To a large degree personality must be very specific to the body. I thought that we as persons at our fundamental could be like some pure energy form of our selves. An energy that can't be destroyed but is transferred.

I am interested to see what happens one day when young Man A looses his head donating his body to science but ten years earlier a old Man B who lost his torso and donated his head to science. When the surgeons sew the body of A to the head of B does man B come back to life as a young man.

If that's the case we probably have invented eternal life right? You would not expect the brain of man b to age in a young body?

This is off topic, so I will post my response in this other thread.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27938&page=52

 

[pixel]

I did not think that it would be personality to be honest. To a large degree personality must be very specific to the body. I thought that we as persons at our fundamental could be like some pure energy form of our selves. An energy that can't be destroyed but is transferred.

I am interested to see what happens one day when young Man A looses his head donating his body to science but ten years earlier a old Man B who lost his torso and donated his head to science. When the surgeons sew the body of A to the head of B does man B come back to life as a young man.

If that's the case we probably have invented eternal life right? You would not expect the brain of man b to age in a young body?

Try and get a copy of Robert Heinlein's "I Will Fear No Evil"
All those questions answered....

 

[ghotib]

Try and get a copy of Robert Heinlein's "I Will Fear No Evil"
All those questions answered....

SNAP

 

[moXJO]

I am terribly sorry that you have misunderstood me. Nowhere have I advocated that homosexuality is a mental disease.

I am not convinced that nature has anything to do with creating gay people, I can accept this as a possibility, but that is less important then truly understanding gay people and what they experience especially their difficulties. My gay friends have told me that their problem was with their parents, specifically a very dysfunctional relationship with a dysfunctional father. What I would call abuse was also involved in other cases. My view at the moment is that this is more likely the cause of being gay based on what they have told me. My one gay friend yearned for time with his father which was denied him and he feels that this harmed him in some way. It's heartbreaking to hear.

I also observed how other people are able to acquire the desire to become gay due to needing to be loved and accepted by somebody. Others have the sexual urge directed towards this at some point in their lives and acquire a taste for it just like people are known to acquire sexual feelings towards objects.

Well daddy issues and loneliness.
I did make the assumption that you were insinuating mental instability-disease

As far as children "necking" themselves I would ask. Where was the support in society for those children? Why did society allow them to commit suicide? Why were these children being bullied to death? Again you want to take away the true responsibility away from who was factually responsible for murdering these people and place it in somebody else's hands.

If I am born with big ears and I am bullied at school to the point that I commit suicide. Your solution is to legislate to make big ears fashionable and desirable so that the big eared child would not encounter negativity but praise.
I on the other hand say that the problem lies in two matters.

1) the big eared child should have been looked after.
2) the small eared children who actually murdered the big eared child should have been raised in such a way that despite the big ears of the big eared child, the big eared child should have been accorded the courtesy of love dignity and respect.

The people with the mental disease are the ones who killed the child .

Yes, but Dumbo doesn't have religious nutters and government legislation telling him he is a blight against nature, backing up those against him. Society was turning a blind eye while the "poofta bashing" went on in the 70's,80's, and early 90's. It was only decriminalized in TAS back in 97. As far as social conditioning goes, pretty sure homosexuals have had it against them for long enough.

Basic human rights between two people that love each other is not legislating to be fashionable. Treating consenting adults as second class citizens is not on. Despite whatever my own personal opinions are on the matter.

On another issue I am against religion being anymore then a personal choice. Not a guide for the state or to be enforced on the population against their will.

You may note that I said it doesn't bother me if two same sex consenting adults get married, but leave unconsenting children out of these relationships.

Penny Wong has a child doesn't she Rumpy. And I'm totally against it. How dare labor members raise children.

Pretty sure homosexual couples can already adopt.